Political Crossfire Forums

[Enoch]

I am curious as to everyone's stance on this issue. We all know that the majority of religions out there consider themselves to be the "one true religion." However, I notice that the major world religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism) are generally treated with respect by one another, even if the extremists within their camps are not.

Then you get to the Pagan spirituatlies. Pagans are often greeted with disrespect, mistrust, and skepticism. Sometimes that even comes in the form of being laughed at or insulted for our beliefs.

Does anyone have an opinion as to why there seems to be more respect for the "big 5" but not for Pagans?



Please, as a request, keep this to a discussion of sociology. This is not a thread to say "we are right, you are wrong." This is trying to discuss why people seem to have less respect for Pagans than for members of the aforementioned religions.

[F'losrix]

UrielsFyre wrote: I am curious as to everyone's stance on this issue. We all know that the majority of religions out there consider themselves to be the "one true religion." However, I notice that the major world religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism) are generally treated with respect by one another, even if the extremists within their camps are not.

Then you get to the Pagan spirituatlies. Pagans are often greeted with disrespect, mistrust, and skepticism. Sometimes that even comes in the form of being laughed at or insulted for our beliefs.

Does anyone have an opinion as to why there seems to be more respect for the "big 5" but not for Pagans?



Please, as a request, keep this to a discussion of sociology. This is not a thread to say "we are right, you are wrong." This is trying to discuss why people seem to have less respect for Pagans than for members of the aforementioned religions.
My gut reaction is that it's a matter of sheer numbers. Few minorities are accorded the same respect that those in the majority expect for themselves. I think it's also lack of exposure and how misrepresentation in popular media promote negative stereotypes. So long as people have it in mind that you're somehow weird, they aren't likely to give you much respect. We're viewed as a danger because the way we think is somehow perceived as threatening to their cherished beliefs. People like conformity because it doesn't challenge them and therefore makes them feel safe.

[George W Bush]

i cant say for sure, but i think it has something to do with polytheistic belief versus monotheism.
that is, the single god theory has created the largest following and everything else is bad, wrong.

[wormwood]

Quote: i cant say for sure, but i think it has something to do with polytheistic belief versus monotheism.
Perhaps, but the original poster said : Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism

Buddhism came from Hinduism, and Hinduism is highly polytheistic. In fact their Gods mirror the Sumerian pantheon. So why persecute one group of polytheists and not the other? Politics. I think Mystic got it when he said : Quote: My gut reaction is that it's a matter of sheer numbers. It is much easier to kick around a few thousand people than it is to oppress/ridicule a couple of BILLION people; also the North American polytheists don't have commodities to trade or armies to fight back, and to top it off, there are no unifying religious authorities for us, and the people that try to emerge as such usually end up looking like new age weirdos and old burnouts. Movements need unity if they are to make any lasting progress. Finally, I think we could stand to learn the same lessons as the Muslims right now...keep your extremists hidden and in the back ground, let the common practitioners of a religion be it's spokesmen in the public forum.

[Enoch]

wormwood wrote: Quote: i cant say for sure, but i think it has something to do with polytheistic belief versus monotheism.
Perhaps, but the original poster said : Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism

Buddhism came from Hinduism, and Hinduism is highly polytheistic. In fact their Gods mirror the Sumerian pantheon. So why persecute one group of polytheists and not the other? Politics. I think Mystic got it when he said : Quote: My gut reaction is that it's a matter of sheer numbers. It is much easier to kick around a few thousand people than it is to oppress/ridicule a couple of BILLION people; also the North American polytheists don't have commodities to trade or armies to fight back, and to top it off, there are no unifying religious authorities for us, and the people that try to emerge as such usually end up looking like new age weirdos and old burnouts. Movements need unity if they are to make any lasting progress. Finally, I think we could stand to learn the same lessons as the Muslims right now...keep your extremists hidden and in the back ground, let the common practitioners of a religion be it's spokesmen in the public forum.

You make a good point that shere numbers, as SM said, and a lack of a unifying body may be a reason for the lack of respect given to Pagans.

The only unified body that I am aware of having ever existed is the American Council of Witches...whiched disbanded in 1974.

[wormwood]

Quote: You make a good point that shere numbers, as SM said, and a lack of a unifying body may be a reason for the lack of respect given to Pagans. If there were a billion pagans, then you would see a totally different attitude toward them. As it stands, most people view pagans as the "fringe" of society and there are many stereotypes that people project against us as a society.

Quote: The only unified body that I am aware of having ever existed is the American Council of Witches...whiched disbanded in 1974. This was a good idea, but part of the problem. There will never be a billion "witches", because that is a very specific sub-sect in the community. We need an overall affiliation that covers everyone, like "Christianity" covers baptists, catholics, pentecostal, etc etc; We need a Pagan Coalition to organize and set a centerline while allowing for things like centralized authority, political considerations, and a loose hierarchal structure giving more authentic religious dogma. By that I mean, some of these secret societies could come out and share and compare information and compile the versions that are consistent (like the Vatican council for occultists and demonologists :lol: ).

[Enoch]

wormwood wrote: Quote: You make a good point that shere numbers, as SM said, and a lack of a unifying body may be a reason for the lack of respect given to Pagans. If there were a billion pagans, then you would see a totally different attitude toward them. As it stands, most people view pagans as the "fringe" of society and there are many stereotypes that people project against us as a society.

Quote: The only unified body that I am aware of having ever existed is the American Council of Witches...whiched disbanded in 1974. This was a good idea, but part of the problem. There will never be a billion "witches", because that is a very specific sub-sect in the community. We need an overall affiliation that covers everyone, like "Christianity" covers baptists, catholics, pentecostal, etc etc; We need a Pagan Coalition to organize and set a centerline while allowing for things like centralized authority, political considerations, and a loose hierarchal structure giving more authentic religious dogma. By that I mean, some of these secret societies could come out and share and compare information and compile the versions that are consistent (like the Vatican council for occultists and demonologists :lol: ).

Not a bad idea, in theory, but I don't see it as being plausible. Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, etc all share the same basic ideas and beliefs. It is in the fine tuning where those beliefs differ.

It is hard to break down the Pagan community in to have one shared basic belief.

[F'losrix]

wormwood wrote: Quote: You make a good point that shere numbers, as SM said, and a lack of a unifying body may be a reason for the lack of respect given to Pagans. If there were a billion pagans, then you would see a totally different attitude toward them. As it stands, most people view pagans as the "fringe" of society and there are many stereotypes that people project against us as a society.

Quote: The only unified body that I am aware of having ever existed is the American Council of Witches...whiched disbanded in 1974. This was a good idea, but part of the problem. There will never be a billion "witches", because that is a very specific sub-sect in the community. We need an overall affiliation that covers everyone, like "Christianity" covers baptists, catholics, pentecostal, etc etc; We need a Pagan Coalition to organize and set a centerline while allowing for things like centralized authority, political considerations, and a loose hierarchal structure giving more authentic religious dogma. By that I mean, some of these secret societies could come out and share and compare information and compile the versions that are consistent (like the Vatican council for occultists and demonologists :lol: ).
Interesting idea, but I question whether we'd ever find that we have enough in common to build upon, apart from our unity in persecution. I see parallels to the struggle for gay rights, where it's been impossible to gather everyone under one umbrella because of the sheer diversity within that community. Instead you get various groups competing with each other to be the voice of the community and people making some shaky alliances with other causes, leaving others who don't share their ideology feeling left out or pushed aside.

[wormwood]

Quote: Not a bad idea, in theory, but I don't see it as being plausible. Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, etc all share the same basic ideas and beliefs. It is in the fine tuning where those beliefs differ.

It is hard to break down the Pagan community in to have one shared basic belief. C'mon Uriel and Mystic, where's your sense of community? The reason it is hard to lump many people together is diversity; you were correct in that. Therefore the easiest way to unify would be through simplicity. For Example Christian=belief in Christ...what you believe about him or his message is irrelevant. So, in that same pretext, could you not unify most groups by simply the belief in partial or complete human divinity (a.k.a. we have more abilities than commonly thought by most people)? To what level or degree you take that is between you and your God/gods. All occult/pagan/new age spiritual modalities are ways for humans to take control of their environment to some degree, whether it be making the uncertain future known, or drawing runes of protection, they are all attempts to go beyond our (or return to some idealized) "ordinary" human limits; to exert ourselves on reality to some extent.

[Enoch]

wormwood wrote: Quote: Not a bad idea, in theory, but I don't see it as being plausible. Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, etc all share the same basic ideas and beliefs. It is in the fine tuning where those beliefs differ.

It is hard to break down the Pagan community in to have one shared basic belief. C'mon Uriel and Mystic, where's your sense of community? The reason it is hard to lump many people together is diversity; you were correct in that. Therefore the easiest way to unify would be through simplicity. For Example Christian=belief in Christ...what you believe about him or his message is irrelevant. So, in that same pretext, could you not unify most groups by simply the belief in partial or complete human divinity (a.k.a. we have more abilities than commonly thought by most people)? To what level or degree you take that is between you and your God/gods. All occult/pagan/new age spiritual modalities are ways for humans to take control of their environment to some degree, whether it be making the uncertain future known, or drawing runes of protection, they are all attempts to go beyond our (or return to some idealized) "ordinary" human limits; to exert ourselves on reality to some extent.

You do have a good point.

[wormwood]

Quote: You do have a good point. 8:)

I can here our rally cry now:
We're here; We may or may not be quasi-extradimensional; Get used to it! :lol:

Seriously though, this would not be an easy move. Even if you could unify most groups under one set leadership, this would still bring much ridicule and persecution as all of the formerly hidden occultist step into the spotlight. Also, the first part would be the hardest...finding the small groups and organizing them WITHOUT everyone thinking you are starting a cult (negative connotation). We have no formal centers of worship and most of the "churches" are grassroots organizations...finding them would be problematic, especially considering that most of these groups remain purposely hidden. Also taking into account that most of the small churches are led by demi-charismatic people that could be just as much of a hindrance as they are a benefit (you don't need 50 people running around claiming to be the "legitimate" leader...learn from politics and keep the moderates at the forefront of representation). Still, I think it would be a big step in the right direction for society and the arts. Plus, with all the pagan holidays we would rule the calendar!!

[Saracen]

Well, you guys have my backing and my respect. :tu:

[wormwood]

Quote: Well, you guys have my backing and my respect. See we are already starting to win over the Muslims :lol:

Maybe one day I'll be Wormwood (PBUH) 8:)

Salaam Moath, what would you say is the public's concern/disdain for arcane practice and worship? I am not talking about "summoning devils", but just any practice whether it be tarot or voodoo or anything in between. There has to be something more than just religious differences to blame. Do you think it is the lack of public knowledge about the subject? Or perhaps the lack of charismatic public figures?

[Saracen]

wormwood wrote: Quote: Well, you guys have my backing and my respect. See we are already starting to win over the Muslims :lol:

Maybe one day I'll be Wormwood (PBUH) 8:)

:rotf:

wormwood wrote: Salaam Moath, what would you say is the public's concern/disdain for arcane practice and worship? I am not talking about "summoning devils", but just any practice whether it be tarot or voodoo or anything in between. There has to be something more than just religious differences to blame. Do you think it is the lack of public knowledge about the subject? Or perhaps the lack of charismatic public figures?

Well, magic is forbidden in Islam, whether it be for a healing purpose or a harmful purpose. However, magic in the form that you see on a stage is alright. Personally, I have nothing against people practicing such rituals, as long as they do it within the limits of goodness and equality.

But I bolded the reason: obviously, people have to know more about magic/arcane worship so they need not fear it. Remember:
Ignorance leads to fear leads to hate.

[F'losrix]

wormwood wrote: Quote: Not a bad idea, in theory, but I don't see it as being plausible. Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, etc all share the same basic ideas and beliefs. It is in the fine tuning where those beliefs differ.

It is hard to break down the Pagan community in to have one shared basic belief. C'mon Uriel and Mystic, where's your sense of community? The reason it is hard to lump many people together is diversity; you were correct in that. Therefore the easiest way to unify would be through simplicity. For Example Christian=belief in Christ...what you believe about him or his message is irrelevant. So, in that same pretext, could you not unify most groups by simply the belief in partial or complete human divinity (a.k.a. we have more abilities than commonly thought by most people)? To what level or degree you take that is between you and your God/gods. All occult/pagan/new age spiritual modalities are ways for humans to take control of their environment to some degree, whether it be making the uncertain future known, or drawing runes of protection, they are all attempts to go beyond our (or return to some idealized) "ordinary" human limits; to exert ourselves on reality to some extent.
Christian sects have a lot more in common than just believing in Christ's divinity.

I agree that unity for such a diverse group would require simplicity. But it would also require more than a few shared beliefs, too. I'm just not sure we can get enough people to agree on something like this without alienating others in significant numbers.

Consider the problems of the Episcopal church over the ordination of a gay bishop. There's growing talk of a schism between the church in America and the rest of the Anglican communion, perhaps not entirely over this one issue, but it's definitely the catalyst.

You see, the Christians started with a common set of beliefs and then splintered off into various sects. You're trying to do the opposite - unify sects that are already splintered. Got to be a lot harder to do.

But of course, I'm a pessimist ('certified', I was voted class pessimist in high school).

[wormwood]

Quote: Well, magic is forbidden in Islam, whether it be for a healing purpose or a harmful purpose. WOW...that is interesting. So even if you were healing people, that would be frowned upon? Even Miraculous healing (like diseases with no cure or something extreme)?

Quote: However, magic in the form that you see on a stage is alright. This is illusion and partially to blame for many misconceptions. When people think of "magic" (like ritual magic) they think of profound immediate (usually optical) effects. They think of magic as pulling a "rabbit" from the hat, but true magic is realizing that there is no rabbit and there is no hat :wink:

Quote: Personally, I have nothing against people practicing such rituals, as long as they do it within the limits of goodness and equality.
Most (I would say 80% or more) magic has to do with effecting something akin to luck...it is like synchronizing being in the right place at the right time. Some people do use the inverse of this to give bad luck to other people, but almost every tradition agrees that ripples of this kind always come back to the caster. The eastern concepts of karma and "yin" "yang" balance seem to be present in most systems.

Other types of magic (like summoning) are (in the old traditions) used to steal power from ancient evils, thereby lessening their effect on this world. The intentions are noble, but this supposedly leads to possession of the inexperienced.

Quote: But I bolded the reason: obviously, people have to know more about magic/arcane worship so they need not fear it. Remember:
Ignorance leads to fear leads to hate. The only problem is when you try to explain what you believe and why, people just turn to ridicule your "new age" beliefs, even though most are older than their religion.

Quote: Christian sects have a lot more in common than just believing in Christ's divinity Ok...put a catholic, a mormon, one of those rattlesnake handling guys from Georgia, and a voodoo priest in the same room (all based off of early Christianity though the last one is a stretch because it is TWO religions) and THEN read about the ACTUAL ministry and life of J.C. and tell me that they are not all equally far removed from each other. Basically they believe Jesus was the son of God, and that makes them Christian.

Quote: I agree that unity for such a diverse group would require simplicity. But it would also require more than a few shared beliefs, too. I'm just not sure we can get enough people to agree on something like this without alienating others in significant numbers. Who would be alienated? To say that humans possess something, superior to the common perception of human limitations, is not alienating but unifying. All of the people that feel this way could get together and subjectively figure out what works and what does not, and teach each other the true methods and practices, while ensuring mutual protection from the society at large. They could organize centers of worship that are as conducive to as many practices as possible and have symbols of protection from every tradition...an amalgamated church of arcane sciences. How cool would it be to have a big Pagan temple in your town? Especially if it doesn't get burned down 8:)

Quote: Consider the problems of the Episcopal church over the ordination of a gay bishop. There's growing talk of a schism between the church in America and the rest of the Anglican communion, perhaps not entirely over this one issue, but it's definitely the catalyst. That's the beauty of sects...they determine their own morality. To try to enforce a "pagan morality" would be impossible for obvious reasons...what you have to do is create a code which effected the sects dealings with each other (to avoid "sectual" harassment :lol: ).

Quote: You see, the Christians started with a common set of beliefs and then splintered off into various sects. You're trying to do the opposite - unify sects that are already splintered. Got to be a lot harder to do. Unless I could demonstrate (within reason) that all religions and practices are the splintering of the first religion and practices. Once everyone learns how they are interconnected into the community, there will be a mutual understanding and respect from within, which forces the same from without.
Also, imagine going to your local temple for advice and there is a monk, a yogi, a shaman, and a non-denominational tarot master all working together for your spiritual betterment... I know it sounds far fetched, but most movements do when they are first proposed. I am not saying that it would be easy, but if everyone wanted to put a stop to the persecution and misunderstandings this would be the way to do it.
As long as people only look out for their own interests, they will never succeed spiritually; this is the basis of all religion. Try this Mr. Pessimist, try thinking of the world the way you WANT it to be, and not the way you fear it will be 8:)

[F'losrix]

wormwood wrote: Quote: Christian sects have a lot more in common than just believing in Christ's divinity Ok...put a catholic, a mormon, one of those rattlesnake handling guys from Georgia, and a voodoo priest in the same room (all based off of early Christianity though the last one is a stretch because it is TWO religions) and THEN read about the ACTUAL ministry and life of J.C. and tell me that they are not all equally far removed from each other. Basically they believe Jesus was the son of God, and that makes them Christian.
You'd likely find they shared more than just that one belief in common. And while you've certainly picked a pretty diverse group, it's not representative of the majority of mainstream Christians, who do still share a lot of common beliefs.

Quote: Try this Mr. Pessimist, try thinking of the world the way you WANT it to be, and not the way you fear it will be 8:)
You mean the way I can reasonably predict it is likely to be?

But you're right, I really need to work on having a more positive attitude. My negativity can border on the vampiric sometimes - I need to work on my balance.

[wormwood]

Quote: You'd likely find they shared more than just that one belief in common. And while you've certainly picked a pretty diverse group, it's not representative of the majority of mainstream Christians, who do still share a lot of common beliefs. True, but that is why I added: "and then read about Jesus and his ministry"...it is a way of gaging how many of those "norms" are actually societal from the romanizing of christianity AND western civilization. What I mean is not just religion was shaped, but ideas about religion were shaped. Like all christians have similar looking churches, but J.C. himself didn't use a church at all...see what I mean? At the core they believe in one god, doing good, going to hell, and all that rot, but they splinter over little frivolous details. What I am proposing is not based around the belief that leads one to power, but the belief that this power can be held by living human beings...how you achieve these abilities is irrelevant to the overall and more of an issue for the sects. Basically we organize all of the spokes to make a wheel. Together, they are more of a force to be reasoned with. For example, remember when that Wiccan bus driver was fired? Well if everyone had been organized, there could have been large protest, or some demonstration of significance that comes from unity.

Another point about the variations of religious beliefs...look at Buddhism. You can be monotheistic, polytheistic, or atheistic, and still be Buddhist. There is one simple belief that unifies the three major sects...they believe man can reach enlightenment.

[Korimyr the Rat]

wormwood wrote: We need a Pagan Coalition to organize and set a centerline while allowing for things like centralized authority, political considerations, and a loose hierarchal structure giving more authentic religious dogma.

Problem is, you can claim that Christians are more or less one faith, even with doctrinal variances.

Pagans are not of one faith. I am not a Wiccan; I do not believe in the God/Goddess, I do not follow the Rede, and I do not consider magic to be an essential part of my religious practice. With all due kindness and respect, no Wiccan has the authority to dictate either my political considerations or my religious dogma.

My faith, in fact, does not even allow a godhi this authority; they may advise, but they may not dictate.

You want to talk about a political alliance for the purpose of protecting our respective religious rights, and I will sit at the table. I ain't going to join a church whose religious values don't match up with my own.

wormwood wrote: By that I mean, some of these secret societies could come out and share and compare information and compile the versions that are consistent (like the Vatican council for occultists and demonologists :lol: ).

That's all well and good for people who take all of the occult under their tent-- and for people whose concern is power over faith. Matter of fact, I might be interested in such a project out of academic curiosity.

wormwood wrote: All occult/pagan/new age spiritual modalities are ways for humans to take control of their environment to some degree...

Occult and New Age, certainly. There's a couple of magical traditions associated with Ásatrú, but they're neither the point of the religion nor essential to it.

The purpose of our faith is to grow closer to our gods and to our kin, to live honorably, and to die well.

Moving aside, since I've been divisive enough already...

wormwood wrote: Salaam Moath, what would you say is the public's concern/disdain for arcane practice and worship? ... There has to be something more than just religious differences to blame.

Well, one, people have always been afraid of the unknown and the powerful.

Two, the Roman Catholic Church waged one Hell of a campaign against all forms of mysticism that were found within Christianity-- long before they tried converting their colonies-- and managed to turn a lot of people against Qabbalists and Gnostics. Since both groups claimed to derive their power from God, studied Scripture extensively, and lived ascetic godly lives, I think it's safe to say that the prohibition wasn't based on Devil-worship.

Personally, I think the political leadership of the church was afraid of being usurped by people with a deeper and more readily apparent claim to a connection with divinity.

Of course, this imposed bias against magic was a useful tool in their conversion campaigns.

Moath wrote: Well, magic is forbidden in Islam, whether it be for a healing purpose or a harmful purpose.

Hmm. I had rather thought that there was an early magical tradition associated with Islam. Was it the traces of an older Arabic tradition, or did the prohibition of magic come later?

[Korimyr the Rat]

And to actually address the original post...

UrielsFyre wrote: Does anyone have an opinion as to why there seems to be more respect for the "big 5" but not for Pagans?

Others have touched on it. Lawyers, guns, and money. They have to have more respect for the other religions, or they're going to get themselves jammed up.

The other is age. You may protest that your traditions are older than theirs-- and you may or may not be right-- but when it comes down to it, the youngest religion on that list is what, 1300 years old? Regardless of our roots, our connections to ancient traditions, we've only been practicing our faiths for the last fifty years-- a century, if you're being charitable.

I don't know a single third generation Pagan. By comparison, I don't know anyone in the Big 5 who can trace their ancestry back to when their family converted, except those that have converted within the Big 5. That's the sort of thing that gives a religion weight and credibility.

UrielsFyre wrote: Please, as a request, keep this to a discussion of sociology.

Sorry about my earlier digression into theology. Pet peeve.