Political Crossfire Forums

[Korimyr the Rat]

Doomsayer wrote: Largely Pagans tend to be young, ignorant, pompus ***holes who just want a free-ride.

How does this differ from most anyone else? Like economics and politics, religion and spirituality are plagued by people who want to do things "the easy way" and avoid doing the hard work themselves.

Compare the difference between a "Sunday Christian" and a man who lives by Christian principles every day of the week. Then look at how many more examples you can find of the former.

I think many Pagan religions suffer because they lack a moral code-- a system of moral reasoning-- more rigorous than the Rede... but the people who put work into living up to the Rede generally make up for ir by trying to help people and avoid harming others.

Doomsayer wrote: And they angst against other religons, mostly Christianity cause they don't offer that free-ride, well, bad news Timmy, neither does magick.

You know, of all of the pagan complaints-- whether Wiccan, heathen, or otherwise-- I have heard against Christianity or the other Abrahamic faiths, I have never heard one claiming that Christianity was "too hard" or a "free ride".

I've seen complaints that Jehovah is a violent, intolerant bastard-- that he fails to live up to either the Rede or to the moral standards he sets for his worshippers-- and I've seen complaints that his worshippers tend to be violent, intolerant bastards-- failing to live up to the teachings of Jesus, no less-- but I've never seen anything that suggests that pagans consider Christianity "too hard".

If anything, I believe that salvation-by-grace and the automatic forgiveness of all sins is too easy. That's why I respect Judaism and Islam-- though not necessarily Jews and Muslims-- so much; they profess that you have to work, and work hard, for their god's love.

Doomsayer wrote: ... ever heard the Pagan expression "all gods are one God"?

That's not a "Pagan" expression; that's either Wiccan, Hindu, or eclectic. It's also the root of a good deal of the problem I have with various pan-paganism movements. Stop trying to cheapen my gods!

[wormwood]

Quote: I think the reason Pagans get disrespect is largely do to the fact that they are just as snobby if not moreso then those they want respect from. Case in point:

Just because we hate eachother's gods doesn't mean we hate eachother Yes, I can see how saying that someone DOESN'T hate someone might be construed as snobby... :roll:

Quote: What the hell is that?! How can you HATE a god?! I think a more pertinent question would be "why" because the "how" can be easy.

Quote: The amount of arrogance and idiocy that spews from teenager's mouths is more then enough to justify thier disrespect, respect is earned not inherited.. So just for my future reference, anything that you do not personally agree with is arrogant idiocy? :lol: Yes obviously it is the pagans who are arrogant....

Quote: Largely Pagans tend to be young, ignorant, pompus ***holes who just want a free-ride. And they're angst against other religons, mostly Christianity cause they don't offer that free-ride Interesting theory...could it be, and this is just a shot in the dark, that some of these "kids"...just some of them...are against Christianity because it's followers call them things like ignorant pompous ****? That and I seem to recall a lot of those good Christian folks burning the ancestors of our religions... but again, you are right and it is really just everyone else's problem...you are the only rational human being after all.

Quote: So if you want respect, you need to stop casting spells and calling a God a dick, and start doing things for your community and prove you are an important part of your society.. That's right pagans, listen up... in his endless and prophetic wisdom, Doom has given us all the answer... if you want respect you should follow suit of other religions... it is not enough to live by a moral code and to try to get to know the source of life... you must push your beliefs on to people for them to be accepted...like how Christians keep our communities safe from gays and women ( :lol: ) ...we have to make sure that every child in public school says a prayer to olden gods, and makes the proper sacrifices...

Doom nailed it...we should "stop casting spells" and better our community,...I mean if Christianity has taught us anything, it is that observing the tenets of ones religion has very little to do with participating in that religion....we should be forcing our own view of morality onto everyone else...just like Jesus.

Quote: I have Christian friends to, lots of them, and I don't "hate" thier God, ever heard the Pagan expression all gods are one God? You need to open your mind before you open your damn mouth.. Yes, why don't we all just shut our damned mouths, and learn from the infinite wisdom and compassion of Doom... :rotf:

Doom, you have inspired us all...thank you. 8:)

[Saracen]

Just for interest purposes, I'm planning to start a thread on the pagan beliefs of Arabs pre-Islam, so I hope you guys anticipate it and see what insights you can add to it once it comes up. :)

Salaam.

[wormwood]

Quote: Just for interest purposes, I'm planning to start a thread on the pagan beliefs of Arabs pre-Islam, so I hope you guys anticipate it and see what insights you can add to it once it comes up.

Salaam. Salaam Mo, The pre-Islam Arabs had to have had traditions that were very close to the source of traditions. I am very curious to see what you have in store...I know of one group, but I want to wait and see if you bring them up. I'll give you a hint, it has to do with the summoning and worship of Leviathan.

[ideal]

I have to agree with Doomsayer to a degree. I've found that many social outcasts tend to be drawn to what I (not so) fondly refer to as pseudopaganism. In an effort to find purpose or meaning, confused or attention starved kids cling to and make great claims about things they do not truly understand the basis of.

Since these people are percieved as weirdo's prior to revelation of their religious beliefs, the image is strengthened when people learn they are supposedly involved in 'abnormal' practices. That image is then projected on the pagan community.

[Stygma]

I'm not a pagan, but as a former one I hope I can give some insight.

Two things drove me away from the religion, and caused me to lose respect for a large portion of their followers (but not all). The two are, at least in my opinion, directly linked.

The first and foremost was the stereotypical teenage witch. They saw "The Craft" and immediately decided they were hooked. I realize this is only a minority of the religion, but it is a vocal minority, and it seems there haven't been enough efforts to disassociate with these "bubblegum pagans" as my (herself pagan) friend Jes calls them.

The second is the feeling that too many people get involved in the religion just to protest christianity and the other large, mainstream religions. I found that many of the pagans I contacted were mainly interested in griping about how much of an oppressed minority we are. Again, I understand this is a minority of the people in this religion, but I still find it to be the most vocal (by far).

I realize a large part of the contempt with which pagans are viewed comes from christianity, but I would argue that a large part of it also comes from this noisy part.

Again, just my opinion (don't normally venture into religious section)

[Saracen]

wormwood wrote: Quote: Just for interest purposes, I'm planning to start a thread on the pagan beliefs of Arabs pre-Islam, so I hope you guys anticipate it and see what insights you can add to it once it comes up.

Salaam. Salaam Mo, The pre-Islam Arabs had to have had traditions that were very close to the source of traditions. I am very curious to see what you have in store...I know of one group, but I want to wait and see if you bring them up. I'll give you a hint, it has to do with the summoning and worship of Leviathan.

Really? That's interesting. I can tell you one thing: even though I don't know about the Leviathan being an object of worship in pre-Islamic Arab Paganism, I know that Leviathan has a name in Arabic, which is Liwaiyataan.

[Korimyr the Rat]

Stygma wrote: ... and it seems there haven't been enough efforts to disassociate with these "bubblegum pagans" as my (herself pagan) friend Jes calls them.

Easily solved. After all, bubblegum is made for chewing up and spitting out, is it not? ;)

However, is it really a good idea for mature, serious Wiccans to dissassociate themselves from the "teenaged witch" stereotypes? They are, after all, both new converts and young believers-- two things that every religion needs in order to flourish.

Stygma wrote: I found that many of the pagans I contacted were mainly interested in griping about how much of an oppressed minority we are.

Doesn't say much about a religion when their biggest appeal is "we're not like them". It's a shame that more Wiccans can't explain what's good about their religion without comparing it to other religions-- because there are some good bits in there.

[Saracen]

Guys, I made the thread. Enjoy reading the OP.

[Enoch]

Korimyr the Rat wrote: Stygma wrote: ... and it seems there haven't been enough efforts to disassociate with these "bubblegum pagans" as my (herself pagan) friend Jes calls them.

Easily solved. After all, bubblegum is made for chewing up and spitting out, is it not? ;)

However, is it really a good idea for mature, serious Wiccans to dissassociate themselves from the "teenaged witch" stereotypes? They are, after all, both new converts and young believers-- two things that every religion needs in order to flourish.

I dissassociate myself with most of them, for two reasons.

1) So many are not really Wiccan. They are what I call "Craft Witches." They are the type that simply watched the movie "The Craft" and thought it would be cool to be a Witch. They know little of Wicca, and know even less of what it really means to live as a Wiccan.

2) By associating strongly with people like the aforementioned, it tends to make people believe that I, too, am nothing more than a "Craft Witch." I have worked hard to make people in my life understand the truth behind Wicca and why I converted to this religion. I don't want that knowledge I passed on to be discredited because of the actions of those I associate with.

[Chocolate_New_Orleans]

you don't have to worry about being associated as a "craft witch" because you hang out with teenage witches, you are associated a 'craft witch' because it's a religion of convenience. It's convenient to be wiccen. You make up your own religious rules and go with what 'feels right'. No conviction, nothing to guide you but your gut.

the true test of your 'religion' is the test of time, which will not happen past the downfall of the US, whether that's in 20 years, 100 years, whenever.

[Enoch]

Chocolate_New_Orleans wrote: you don't have to worry about being associated as a "craft witch" because you hang out with teenage witches, you are associated a 'craft witch' because it's a religion of convenience. It's convenient to be wiccen. You make up your own religious rules and go with what 'feels right'. No conviction, nothing to guide you but your gut.

the true test of your 'religion' is the test of time, which will not happen past the downfall of the US, whether that's in 20 years, 100 years, whenever.

While the Wiccan religion is a modern construct, the traditions, practices, and beliefs stem from centuries-old practices that predate Christianity.

And, also, it would be inadvisable to term Wicca "a religion of convenience" unless you have a true understanding of what the faith entails.

Trust me when I say that "As it harm none, do as you will" is a lot harder to follow through that many might think.

[wormwood]

Quote: Trust me when I say that "As it harm none, do as you will" is a lot harder to follow through that many might think. I have to agree with Uriel on this one. Over analyzing every action to find real or perceived consequence for other people can be very frustrating. This is especially true when one is trying to get ahead in the business world, or some similarly competitive circumstance. I find that these things, in their purest forms, are NOT about making up the rules as you go, but different routes of varying complexity, leading to essentially the same results.

To me, it seems that "Do as thou will" is very comparable "Do unto others", the only difference is one side follows the rules for a fear or respect for God, and the other side does so out of fear or respect for the natural relationship of cause and effect. To me it is just semantics.