Political Crossfire Forums

F'losrix · Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 11:18 am Post subject:

There's also the inherent distrust that some of us have of any attempt to organize religion.

I'd be more in favor of what Korimyr suggested - a political alliance aimed at protecting our respective religious rights.
We need to maintain our protection before we can even hope to begin working on gaining the respect of people from other faiths.

There's also the very real fact that respect for other faiths is largely imcompatible with some people's interpretation of their own faith. You're never going to win those people over.

thorn · Joined: 25 Jun 2004 Posts: 2680 Location: some rainy place

I'm not sure if it is possible to have a sociological discussion of this disrespect without including theological resons as well. :think:

I do not know if this helps, but I think lots of the "disrespect" given to Pagan idea(l)s stems from sheer ignorance by others on the one hand. You see, whenever people learn about something new they use to start with the negative aspects, because it is easier to learn by differentiation and exclusion. Now, what are the parts that jump into the eye of the beholder the most? Witchcraft, mysticism, magic, most of these things have been demonized by the other religions for ages. how else do you think societies like those in central europe, whose belief structure very much worked with these things suddenly came up with the legends and stories culminating in Grimm's tales always involving bad old ladies (=witches), ravens as ill omens, and so on?

On the other hand, basic antagonism on both sides of the fence does the rest.

What I always thought interesting is that in all the big religions (except maybe Hinduism) the ambivalence of Good and Evil never is working in one and the same person/divine being. Maybe that is too much of humanity or basic ambivalence showing in a divine being that is supposed to be free of human faults.

wormwood · Joined: 25 Sep 2005 Posts: 2269 Location: The P-Brane

Quote: Problem is, you can claim that Christians are more or less one faith, even with doctrinal variances.

Pagans are not of one faith. I am not a Wiccan; I do not believe in the God/Goddess, I do not follow the Rede, and I do not consider magic to be an essential part of my religious practice. With all due kindness and respect, no Wiccan has the authority to dictate either my political considerations or my religious dogma. By Loki's beard, I think you're right, Thanks for vocalizing this. The original intention I had was just to form a mostly political affiliation...all of the other stuff was just a possible side effect if the faiths began to blend; all except the people getting together and sharing knowledge.... that would be very good for all parties involved but this was more of an academic endeavor, than a religious one.

Quote: My faith, in fact, does not even allow a godhi this authority; they may advise, but they may not dictate.

You want to talk about a political alliance for the purpose of protecting our respective religious rights, and I will sit at the table. I ain't going to join a church whose religious values don't match up with my own. I think we are talking about the same thing; I am not trying to create a system of authority for within, but a system for protecting everyone's beliefs and practices. The basic idea I had was something like this; you may not respect a Wiccan or his authority, and he may not respect you or yours, but when faced with outside oppression, you could swell your numbers by relying on your "brother". Trying to create a complete system of Pagan morality would be impossible for obvious reasons.

Quote: That's all well and good for people who take all of the occult under their tent-- and for people whose concern is power over faith. Matter of fact, I might be interested in such a project out of academic curiosity. Yes, I wasn't talking about MANDATORY participation in anything. I was suggesting that it would facilitate people who have to pine over thousands of pages of old books to get a few useful facts.

Quote: Occult and New Age, certainly. There's a couple of magical traditions associated with Ásatrú, but they're neither the point of the religion nor essential to it.

The purpose of our faith is to grow closer to our gods and to our kin, to live honorably, and to die well. I was not saying that "magic" was the center, but rather the desire to effect things that most people see as out of man's control. You want to die well, and live honorably and you are taking action and seeking outside assistance...see what I mean?

Quote: Two, the Roman Catholic Church waged one Hell of a campaign against all forms of mysticism that were found within Christianity-- long before they tried converting their colonies-- and managed to turn a lot of people against Qabbalists and Gnostics. Since both groups claimed to derive their power from God, studied Scripture extensively, and lived ascetic godly lives, I think it's safe to say that the prohibition wasn't based on Devil-worship.

Personally, I think the political leadership of the church was afraid of being usurped by people with a deeper and more readily apparent claim to a connection with divinity. :clap:

Quote: I don't know a single third generation Pagan. By comparison, I don't know anyone in the Big 5 who can trace their ancestry back to when their family converted, except those that have converted within the Big 5. That's the sort of thing that gives a religion weight and credibility.

Good point. I know only two people who are more than 3rd generation pagans.

Quote: I'd be more in favor of what Korimyr suggested - a political alliance aimed at protecting our respective religious rights.
We need to maintain our protection before we can even hope to begin working on gaining the respect of people from other faiths. Yes, this was the basis of the suggestion. All of the other stuff was pie in the sky speculation about what it could lead to. But the central point was: a centralized organization to unify various practices which, on their own, could be completely bullied out of existence.

Quote: I do not know if this helps, but I think lots of the "disrespect" given to Pagan idea(l)s stems from sheer ignorance by others on the one hand. You see, whenever people learn about something new they use to start with the negative aspects, because it is easier to learn by differentiation and exclusion. Now, what are the parts that jump into the eye of the beholder the most? Witchcraft, mysticism, magic, most of these things have been demonized by the other religions for ages. how else do you think societies like those in central Europe, whose belief structure very much worked with these things suddenly came up with the legends and stories culminating in Grimm's tales always involving bad old ladies (=witches), ravens as ill omens, and so on? Very true. Good post.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15233 Location: On Earth

Korimyr the Rat wrote: Hmm. I had rather thought that there was an early magical tradition associated with Islam. Was it the traces of an older Arabic tradition, or did the prohibition of magic come later?

Sorry for my late response. I didn't notice this post until now. Well, before Islam, the Arab tribes of Mecca used to practice bizarre magical rituals that were very similar to Ancient Babylonian rituals. We believe that there were two angels, Harut and Marut, who exhibited this knowledge of magic and kept it preserved over centuries. However, magical worship and practices failed to find a ground in revelation and Muhammad (PBUH)'s Apostlehood. Magic was also then seen as a way to manipulate what isn't yours to mess with, such as metaphysical/electromagnetic influences and so forth... Morever, magic at that time was more harmful than helpful, and thus Muslims, like Christians and Jews, viewed it unfavorably...
Hope that helps. :)

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 8261

Korimyr brings up a good point in that pagans don't have a centralized idea or belief upon which we can build any sort of recongized structure, hierarchy, or organization.

But, as wormwood suggested, perhaps some sort of coalition ("brotherhood" so to speak) of pagans might not be a bad idea. While we may have vastly different beliefs than one another, we can share the position of being the "religious fringe" either percieved as a threat or a joke by the big 5.

Korimyr the Rat · Joined: 11 Jan 2006 Posts: 983 Location: Wyoming

Thank you, Saracen. That clears things up for me immensely.

Particularly in relation to the claim that sorcery at the time was more often used for evil ends; given my understanding of other Islamic prohibitions, it makes sense that it would thus be forbidden.

The Red Thunderbolt · Joined: 19 Feb 2006 Posts: 21 Location: Mumbai

Hi all !!

I am from India and this is my first post.

The Hindus worship the same gods as the ancient Europeans. Their religion was similar to the religion of teh ancient Germanic tribes. Their society was buit on the same lines as the ancient celtic tribes.

However Hinduism is still alive and kicking while the native european religions have gone extinct.

The main reason for the decline of these religions was lack of knowledge. When faced with an enormous challenge such as Christianity, it was necessary for the priests of all the tribes to unify and pool their knowledge about the enemy and then deliver a response. They failed completely to arrive at any sort of strategy with the result that christianity managed to simply bulldoze them.

However attempts are now being made to revive these old religions and at least create a cesspool of knowledge about each other. One such attempt is the formation of the World Congress Of Ethnic Religions. Try out this link http://www.wcer.org/

Hope it helps you in finding kindred spirits.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15233 Location: On Earth

Korimyr the Rat wrote: Thank you, Saracen. That clears things up for me immensely.

Particularly in relation to the claim that sorcery at the time was more often used for evil ends; given my understanding of other Islamic prohibitions, it makes sense that it would thus be forbidden.

No problem. And good analysis. :)

Korimyr the Rat · Joined: 11 Jan 2006 Posts: 983 Location: Wyoming

Thanks for the link.

The Red Thunderbolt · Joined: 19 Feb 2006 Posts: 21 Location: Mumbai

Here's another one: http://www.druidnetwork.org/directory/groupsamericas.html#aoda

By the way Saracen, its actually nice to hear a Muslim commenting on his religion and even that of his ancestors. Maybe its the fault of the media, but I had come to believe that all muslims had almost entirely whitewashed all memories of their pre islamic past.

You come as a revelation.

Thanks for your insights.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15233 Location: On Earth

TRT wrote: By the way Saracen, its actually nice to hear a Muslim commenting on his religion and even that of his ancestors. Maybe its the fault of the media, but I had come to believe that all muslims had almost entirely whitewashed all memories of their pre islamic past.

You come as a revelation.

Thanks for your insights.

No problem. I'm just doing the right thing.

Welcome to the forums, by the way. :)

Kt · Joined: 23 Jan 2006 Posts: 3806

UrielsFyre wrote: I am curious as to everyone's stance on this issue. We all know that the majority of religions out there consider themselves to be the "one true religion." However, I notice that the major world religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism) are generally treated with respect by one another, even if the extremists within their camps are not.

Then you get to the Pagan spirituatlies. Pagans are often greeted with disrespect, mistrust, and skepticism. Sometimes that even comes in the form of being laughed at or insulted for our beliefs.

Does anyone have an opinion as to why there seems to be more respect for the "big 5" but not for Pagans?

Please, as a request, keep this to a discussion of sociology. This is not a thread to say "we are right, you are wrong." This is trying to discuss why people seem to have less respect for Pagans than for members of the aforementioned religions.

The fact that many diverse groups are lumped into one word "paganism" can't help much.

For example, the New Agers might get disrespected by christians because of people like me. Even though most New Agers i've seen are so RHP/angel worshipping, that it is laughable christians would attack them. They see one pagan they've seen it all is the attitude many hold. And even though I go around cursing jehova at every chance i get, they will persecute others for it.

EDIT: That being said, I have more than one good christian friend, and we tend to get along just fine once we both learn that the fact that we hate eachother's gods does not mean we hate eachother.

Kumar · Joined: 21 Jul 2004 Posts: 13348 Location: Toronto

wormwood wrote: Quote: i cant say for sure, but i think it has something to do with polytheistic belief versus monotheism.
Perhaps, but the original poster said : Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism

Buddhism came from Hinduism, and Hinduism is highly polytheistic. In fact their Gods mirror the Sumerian pantheon.
That is untrue. The various deities are manifestations of the one God Brahman. The importance/history of the deities varies according to sect.

Canadian_Patriot · Joined: 14 Feb 2006 Posts: 323

This new age paganism is not the real deal anyone who know anything about the "real" pagans know that almost every ritual involved entheogenics and psychodelics.

Drug are the main ingredient to almost any ancient pagan ritual what we see now a days is a joke all these symbols came from the mystery schools of a previous time and have lost their true meanings.

Infact almost all religeons were made on some kind of drug.

My theory and personal experience with these is prrof enough for my mind that in order to be really spiritual truly connected with the universe you need mind altering agents.

Opium, Cannabis, Mushrooms and peyote were some of the most common substances found to have a close relatioship with any ancient culture.

Anyone who claims to be pagan that does not use drugs is not a pagan same thing goes with any other religeon.

mind altering drugs are the path to true enlightenment for anyone.

Kt · Joined: 23 Jan 2006 Posts: 3806

Canadian_Patriot wrote: This new age paganism is not the real deal anyone who know anything about the "real" pagans know that almost every ritual involved entheogenics and psychodelics.

Drug are the main ingredient to almost any ancient pagan ritual what we see now a days is a joke all these symbols came from the mystery schools of a previous time and have lost their true meanings.

Infact almost all religeons were made on some kind of drug.

My theory and personal experience with these is prrof enough for my mind that in order to be really spiritual truly connected with the universe you need mind altering agents.

Opium, Cannabis, Mushrooms and peyote were some of the most common substances found to have a close relatioship with any ancient culture.

Anyone who claims to be pagan that does not use drugs is not a pagan same thing goes with any other religeon.

mind altering drugs are the path to true enlightenment for anyone.
I could not disagree more, one doesn't NEED drugs for "True enlightenment" although they may help during divination, I can't see how you are serious.

F'losrix · Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 5:03 pm Post subject:

Canadian_Patriot wrote: This new age paganism is not the real deal anyone who know anything about the "real" pagans know that almost every ritual involved entheogenics and psychodelics.
How does that invalidate people finding new ways of seeking spiritual enlightenment, sans the employment of drug use in ritual?

Quote: Drug are the main ingredient to almost any ancient pagan ritual what we see now a days is a joke all these symbols came from the mystery schools of a previous time and have lost their true meanings.
Symbols have whatever meaning common usage assigns to them. Some orginal meanings are lost, some have been rediscovered, some are still being explored or sought.

Quote: Infact almost all religeons were made on some kind of drug.
Proof?

Quote: My theory and personal experience with these is prrof enough for my mind that in order to be really spiritual truly connected with the universe you need mind altering agents.
Mine informs me otherwise. If it's what you need, fine. Doesn't mean what applies to you applies equally to everyone else.

Quote: Opium, Cannabis, Mushrooms and peyote were some of the most common substances found to have a close relatioship with any ancient culture.

Anyone who claims to be pagan that does not use drugs is not a pagan same thing goes with any other religeon.
Who made you the God of Defining Paganism?

Quote: mind altering drugs are the path to true enlightenment for anyone.
Not so. They may be for some. Others find other ways.

wormwood · Joined: 25 Sep 2005 Posts: 2269 Location: The P-Brane

Quote: This new age paganism is not the real deal anyone who know anything about the "real" pagans know that almost every ritual involved entheogenics and psychodelics.

Drug are the main ingredient to almost any ancient pagan ritual what we see now a days is a joke all these symbols came from the mystery schools of a previous time and have lost their true meanings.

Infact almost all religeons were made on some kind of drug.

My theory and personal experience with these is prrof enough for my mind that in order to be really spiritual truly connected with the universe you need mind altering agents.

Opium, Cannabis, Mushrooms and peyote were some of the most common substances found to have a close relatioship with any ancient culture.

Anyone who claims to be pagan that does not use drugs is not a pagan same thing goes with any other religeon.

mind altering drugs are the path to true enlightenment for anyone .

:lol: Even the most precursory glance at any of these religions you claim to have knowledge of would reveal your obvious ignorance on the subject. Even the groups who traditionally DO use mind altering drugs, certain tribes of native Americans for example, they only use them at the beginning of the road to Shamanism, once certain journeys have been made, and certain secrets divined, peyote and mushrooms no longer play a significant role. It is just used as a way to break the Shaman's perceptions of his world...and not the basis of the religion. Also if you are familiar with psychedelics, the "peak" of the trip can be used in the same way people use the orgasm for sex magic, but only under certain circumstances and it is not a daily practice.

Quote: Anyone who claims to be pagan that does not use drugs is not a pagan same thing goes with any other religion. This is absurd...do you know nothing of true ancient pagans? If you did you would know that most people were accountable to a regional deity, YHVH started as a regional deity of the Hebrews for example. Certain regional deities forbid intoxicants...so I think you are misinformed.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad you tried acid (or mushrooms) and liked it...just don't be that guy that tries to attach that experience to everything in life. There is a plateau with chemicals...like all "dark" arts...the fast way is the most limited.

Korimyr the Rat · Joined: 11 Jan 2006 Posts: 983 Location: Wyoming

Canadian_Patriot wrote: Drug are the main ingredient to almost any ancient pagan ritual what we see now a days is a joke all these symbols came from the mystery schools of a previous time and have lost their true meanings.

There is power in breaking the chains which bind your brain to mundane reality-- so that you may forge new ones-- but there is also power in clarity and focus.

Drugs are a tool, no more and no less.

wormwood · Joined: 25 Sep 2005 Posts: 2269 Location: The P-Brane

Quote: That is untrue. The various deities are manifestations of the one God Brahman. The importance/history of the deities varies according to sect. They are still a mirror of the Sumerian gods. Also, you only speak for specific types of Hinduism, as I know Hindu's that are polytheistic. Even if the gods are only a manifestation of one spirit, there are still multiple super human deities...this is polytheism. Not all gods have to be worshiped or observed, one simply has to believe in more than one god. I know this gray area that we are running into...I have to try to explain it all the time when I explain Cabala, so I know what you are saying...I even say Catholicism is polytheistic, so don't feel bad, I am not singling you out. On the one hand, it is truly only one God...in fact everything in the universe is made up of it...but on the other hand there are multiple manifestations of super human deities.... they are all different faces of the same god...yet they are seemingly independent and at odds with each other. It is a slippery slope of logic :lol:

Doomsayer · Joined: 23 Feb 2006 Posts: 8

I think the reason Pagans get disrespect is largely do to the fact that they are just as snobby if not moreso then those they want respect from. Case in point:

Quote: Just because we hate eachother's gods doesn't mean we hate eachother

What the hell is that?! How can you HATE a god?! That doesn't even make sense! The amount of arrogance and idiocy that spews from teenager's mouths is more then enough to justify thier disrespect, respect is earned not inherited..

Largely Pagans tend to be young, ignorant, pompus **** who just want a free-ride. And they're angst against other religons, mostly Christianity cause they don't offer that free-ride, well, bad news Timmy, neither does magick.. So if you want respect, you need to stop casting spells and calling a God a dick, and start doing things for your community and prove you are an important part of your society.. Otherwise, you won't get anything, and that's how it should be..

I have Christian friends to, lots of them, and I don't "hate" thier God, ever heard the Pagan expression all gods are one God? You need to open your mind before you open your damn mouth..