Political Crossfire Forums

[Slayer]

jeechoscopy wrote: Danpt2000 wrote: Well, we can't be in the number one spot forever...


After USSR someone have to fill the vacancy… Why not China?
Don’t know why she is doing so…

What would be a threat behind the heavy investment?

Two words COLD WAR

[Sun Bin]

Demonic Spoon wrote: Quote: What a shi**y attitude you have. We as Americans must strive to have the strongest military, which is why we must not have a liberal in office!!!!!!!

Why must we have the strongest military, hmm? WE do NOT need to have a powerful offensive military. We need to be able to create one quickly in the event of an attack (World War 2 anyone?). It's just pissed away money until it is needed.

And America can NOT be the superpower forever. All great nations/empires have fallen, or at the very least lost most of their power. British Empire, Roman Empire, Greece, etc..
.
I am not saying it will be due to war, but eventually America will fall.


With attitudes like this..:

Moath wrote: Wow. That is some statistic. The US has seriously got to cut back on military spending..

Danpt2000 wrote: Slayer wrote: Danpt2000 wrote: Well, we can't be in the number one spot forever...
What a shi**y attitude you have. We as Americans must strive to have the strongest military, which is why we must not have a liberal in office!!!!!!! Ahh, the strongest military for what purpose? For defence? No, for the greater part of the 20th century America's military has been used for Power Projection. America has been the aggressor for numerous conflicts. When She is not being the aggressor She is playing the part of Global policeman behind the facade of the UN. Sometimes it is difficult of distinguish whether the U.S. is a Republic or an Empire. Besides the fact that overall American standard of living is one of the highest, many peoples around the world flock here also recognizing U.S. dominance in geopolitics. Don't get me wrong, America is a great place to live (except for the fact that we are all gouged by taxes), but don't blind yourself from the true nature of the beast we call America.

Your hopes and dreams will come sooner than you could ever imagine.

Wake the hell up.

I think you all need some serious lessons in strategy.

[Poon]

Slayer wrote: If we didn't act as a global policeman countries like Iraq would of had wmds!!!!!! And countries like N. Korea would be using chemical weapons. And furthermore, it would take to damn long to assemble the troops necessary to go to war if we didn't have them already in the military!!

PS we are not gouged by taxes Perhaps the taxes may look small because your paycheck is so small.

American citizens pay taxes when we purchase a house, we are taxed when we purchase a vehicle, on top of that we are charged recurring taxes each year on Property and vehicles that WE'VE ALREADY OWNED! WTF is that? I think its BS. Americans are taxed on every paychecked they earned (State Tax, Federal Tax, Medicare and Social Security) More BS! We are taxed on every small purchase we make (Sales Tax). Please tell me you must be joking right? Or perhaps you did not put much thought into your little comment? :wink:

Depite all the taxes that Citizens pay, the U.S. gov't is over $8 trillion in debt. Our social security is becoming insolvent. Where did all the money go? Money for war? Money in the pockets of Corporate elites who are benefiting from Corporate welfare? Money for politicians who are in the pockets of the corporate Elites?

I agree with your point that the World needs a "Policeman". But what do you think of a police that uses Napalm in war, or massive bombs that serve not only to destroy enemy combatants, but to Shock and Awe the civilian population? What possible use could Napalm be other than to cause unimaginable suffering to innocent civilians and combatants alike? I don't have a link yet, but I do believe the U.S. military still keeps Napalm, Biological weapons and other questionable weapons in her arsenal.

[Sun Bin]

Quote: American citizens pay taxes when we purchase a house, we are taxed when we purchase a vehicle, on top of that we are charged recurring taxes each year on Property and vehicles that WE'VE ALREADY OWNED! WTF is that? I think its BS. Americans are taxed on every paychecked they earned (State Tax, Federal Tax, Medicare and Social Security) More BS! We are taxed on every small purchase we make (Sales Tax). Please tell me you must be joking right? Or perhaps you did not put much thought into your little comment? :wink:

It interests me to no end how people like yourself love to complain about having to pay taxes and how the government loves to "soak every penny" out of every American citizen's paychecks and purchases, yet when it comes time for the President to look into tax cuts, you start complaining about deficit spending, and how cutting taxes is a bad idea; that the economy couldn't possibly benefit from tax breaks, big or small (no way!).

I don't particularly like having to pay taxes myself, but I don't complain to much (although I have my ideas on the way the money should be spent) because where else is the government going to get the money to support the MILITARY, or all of these stupid government programs you want, like social security. The government can't run itself. And I'm sure you people love to eat up the fact that this government is for the people, by the people. So, in that case, it's up to every American citizen out there to maintain it.

Quote: Depite all the taxes that Citizens pay, the U.S. gov't is over $8 trillion in debt. Our social security is becoming insolvent. Where did all the money go? Money for war? Money in the pockets of Corporate elites who are benefiting from Corporate welfare? Money for politicians who are in the pockets of the corporate Elites?

We could do it your way, and pay off the national debt, since it seems that this debt we have is such a big deal, then not worry about government funding of health-care and subsidizing other programs like a broke system like welfare.
Hell, that's all we could focus on for the next 10 years, paying off our National debt, then guess what every Liberal in America would be doing? What they've always been good at... Bitching.
Face it, the U.S. Government can never win, so what's the point for you guys to even bother.

When there is a war that needs to be fought, yes it's up to the Americans to pay for that war. No one expects things like a terrorist attack to pop up some random day in September.. but when it comes time to defend ourselves, who're the ones bitchin'? Can ya see a pattern here?

I'm not gonna sit here and say that there isn't any form of corruption in our government and businesses. There is corruption everywhere and there is nothing you can do to stop 100% of it from happening. And I agree that it is unfortunate that hard earned American dollars go pouring into their pockets, but you gotta start taking the bad with the good here.
If we can't get around the fact that, no matter how awesome our country is, we have our flaws, then who else can you trust? If the U.S. Government is so tyrannical as you people make it out to be, and if you so predictably prefer socialism over a little tainted capitalism here and there, then you do not have to stay here.

Quote: I agree with your point that the World needs a "Policeman". But what do you think of a police that uses Napalm in war, or massive bombs that serve not only to destroy enemy combatants, but to Shock and Awe the civilian population? What possible use could Napalm be other than to cause unimaginable suffering to innocent civilians and combatants alike? I don't have a link yet, but I do believe the U.S. military still keeps Napalm, Biological weapons and other questionable weapons in her arsenal.

No, we need to be more vigilant than just a world policeman. We need to stay on top of every threat out there.

"This is war. It is the most important skill in the nation. It is the philosopy of survival and destruction. It is a matter of life or death. You must know it well."
- Sun Tzu.

This bulls**t poking and prodding of our enemies, letting them draw first blood, is complete asinine and utter idiocy. If we want to maintain the most security of our nation, we need to be there waiting, on theirdoorstep, if they decide they have a problem. I'll be damned if we are going to sit back and wait for a crooked nation like Iran bully us or the rest of the world around simply because "they haven't done anything to us"... yet. That is foolishness in every true sense of the word.

You have no strategic inclination, do you? Our job in the military is not "shock and awe" civilians. It's to get the job done the most effectively, whether we use Napalm or any other kind of weapon. The killing or unnecessary suffering of civilians is of no strategic importance whatsoever to a military mission. The only problem you have is the collateral damage where we place our bombs. If we had any intent on killing innocent civilians for the shear hell of it, why the hell are we developing smarter weapons? We could level that place. We could turn Baghdad into what Berlin was in the 1940s. We could wipe Iraq entirely off of the map. This just goes to show you that you have no freakin' clue. The only thing you know about war is what you read on the front page of your New York Times.

Biological and Chemical agents are against U.S. policy. But what good would it do going down that road, you don't trust the government anyway.

Believe what ya wanna believe, and I'll know that you are wrong.

[XxMorningStarxX]

Danpt2000 wrote: Danpt2000 wrote: Quote: The claim of the People's Republic of China that its defense spending is far lower than other major powers is correct, on the condition the official military budget number of the People's Republic of China is the real budget number. It has also been argued that the United States is also deliberately misleading on actual military expenditures, for example excluding Iraq and Afghanistan-related expenses from the official Department of Defense budget report. [1] This suspicion about the military expenditure of the United States is confirmed by the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%27s_military_budget

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:WorldMilitarySpending.jpg

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Quote: According to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, in 2003 the United States spent approximately 47% of the world's total military spending of US$956,000,000,000.

Relative to the total GDP of the United States, however, the total spending on the military was only 3.7% in 2003. This spending rate has been in a slow decline since peaking in 1944 at 37.8% of GDP. Even during the peak of the Vietnam War the percentage reached only a high of 9.4% in 1968.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budget_in_the_United_States


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Look at the data in Tables provided by independent research institutes as well as U.S. DoD
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%27s_military_budget

Looking at data from Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI) , it looks like China's military expenditure trails the U.S. expenditure in absolute terms as well as relative terms.

Normally, the world should think it is good to have a strong Global Policeman, but what do you do when the Police abuses his power?

Please do some reading yourself before u start spouting claims MorningStar. I repeat this for you since you seem to ignore previous posts.

????????????? how did i ignore previous posts?? I arguied that China spent like 20-40 billion, which they do. Yeah isaid they spent a larger percentage of their GDP than the U.S., but i get this from majority of sources- if that's the only part u dispute and proved wrong, then i will stand corrected. I wasn't exactly "spouting" anything. I was just saying that AMericans on this forum should realize that The U.S. also has its own interests, and therefore will obviously not stand by while China, a state with questionable integrity, becomes more powerful.

[XxMorningStarxX]

I think people should seriously consider looking in to Peoples' LIberation Army facts and figures before concluding that China will be the new superpower. On paper, China's growth may appear extremely fast, but there are tons and tons of internal s**t that the Chinese government have to deal with before entering the international arena and matching the West- If you read more into it, you'll probably realize that it will take at least another half century before China can even have a chance.

www.sinodefence.com (this is a really good site)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peoples_Liberation_Army (some missing stuff but gives overall idea)

Compare this to what you know about the U.S. military

[anselfir]

foadi wrote: XxMorningStarxX wrote:
And plus, this is world politics for Christsake!!! China is not going to stand by some moral standard (it's also the only official atheist state in the world). We have a much better track record, we are more justified than the PRC, which means there IS and SHOULD be a double standard.
I would prefer China as a superpower as opposed to the US any day of the week. I strongly disagree. explain you rposition.

[Sun Bin]

What kills me the most about this deal with China's buildup of their military is not only are we helping them do it, but we know what they are up to and still turn a blind eye.

China is not our friend, China is not our Ally. Until we can get this through our thick American heads, China WILL be the next Superpower.

The Chinese can deny the pentagon's report all they want. In a strategic sense, we need to be paying more attention to what they do, rather than what they say.

Hutchison Wampoa, a Chinese company, bought out the Panama canal from us back when Carter was President. If that wasn't one of the biggest sell outs of our position as a strategic world power.. besides Clinton's affair with trading nuclear technology for illegal campaign funds.

[Sun Bin]

Now that I've actually had time to sift through and respond to these outrageous comments...

Quote: Why must we have the strongest military, hmm? WE do NOT need to have a powerful offensive military. We need to be able to create one quickly in the event of an attack (World War 2 anyone?). It's just pissed away money until it is needed.

Are you insane? A very good offense is often the best defense. We need a more powerful offensive military today than we ever have before. Good grief guy..

You can't just create an army in the midst of an attack. We did not "just create" a military after we were attacked at Pearl Harbor. I don't know what history book you've been readin'.

Money well invested in the military is money well invested indeed. A nations military is vital to the survival of it's state. To think we can just let our guard down, then build our power up overnite... just forget it, man.

I would like to know what it is you are smokin...


Quote: And America can NOT be the superpower forever. All great nations/empires have fallen, or at the very least lost most of their power. British Empire, Roman Empire, Greece, etc..
.
I am not saying it will be due to war, but eventually America will fall.

:x

SO LETS JUST GIVE UP!

[foadi]

oneofthem wrote: I strongly disagree. explain you rposition.
I could be wrong, but I have a feeling that China as a superpower would be less aggressive than the US.

[Sun Bin]

foadi wrote: America has shown itself to be extremely aggressive in the international arena, attacking countries at will. Simply put, I have a hard time believing that China will adopt the same behavoir. China is known for using soft power against it's enemies, but other than that I think it would maintain a hand's off approach.

I'm sorry but the subtleness of China's actions towards those who oppose her is not "soft power." If anything, that makes China even more dangerous.

China is a power that should be taken seriously, well respected, and handled with care. China knows what the hell she is doin'. I mean, it's the birthplace of Sun Tzu for crying out loud. China doesn't have to fight big battles in order to be a large contributor to the tipping of the scale of global power. In fact, China KNOWS it cannot win a war with the U.S. on our terms. China is using our own spending of our military against us. Instead of confronting us head on with one powerful and expensive military to another, she finances what is often called 4th dimensional warfare, or unconventional means of fighting a war (i.e. Terrorism, Economic warfare, Information Warfare, Political Warfare, etc., etc.); means of fighting a war that is not understood by the military alone.

A quote from the book "Unrestricted Warfare: China's Master Plan to Destroy America" - by PLA Col. Qiao Liang and Col. Wang Xiangsui

"Whether it be the intrusions of hackers, a major explosion at the World Trade Center, or a bombing attack by Bin Laden, all of these greatly exceed the frequency bandwidth understood by the American Military... This is because they have never taken into consideration and have even refused to consider means that are contradictory to tradition and to select measures of operation other than military means."

China is not stupid. China is a formidable opponent to the United States, and she has her hands deep in the business of the world just as much as anyone other nation competing on a global scale, aggressive or not.

[anselfir]

foadi wrote: oneofthem wrote: I strongly disagree. explain you rposition.
I could be wrong, but I have a feeling that China as a superpower would be less aggressive than the US. they will of course be less aggressive, because the b*****s who are in control over there only wants to prolong their utterly corrupt and unjustified rule, all teh while keeping everyone else slaves. f**k them all.

[billib]

I wish I could have come in earlier, but later is better than never. Anyways, is China a threat, simply stated yes. Will it invade US in the next three decades, very possible, if not probable. If to say they did decide to go to war, you know that the Arab countries would jump in, and maybe even Russia. Its not a question of if, but when. Believe me or not it will happen. Take it anyway you want it, but I spelled it out loud and clear

[Sun Bin]

billib wrote: I wish I could have come in earlier, but later is better than never. Anyways, is China a threat, simply stated yes. Will it invade US in the next three decades, very possible, if not probable. If to say they did decide to go to war, you know that the Arab countries would jump in, and maybe even Russia. Its not a question of if, but when. Believe me or not it will happen. Take it anyway you want it, but I spelled it out loud and clear

China is smarter than that to outright invade us. China would rather try to support an American presidential candidate up for election that aligns their Ideals with the Peoples Republic in order to best suit the mainland's "needs."

"To win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. Subduing the enemy without a fight is the acme of skill."

- Sun Tzu

(I hope we know them, because they sure as hell know us.)

On a further note, and as much as it pisses me off, I predict China's smooth eventual takeover of Taiwan without firing a shot, and guess who's gonna help them do it?

Hopefully, those, now, who are skeptical about China's dangerous capabilities, in the midst of their growing power, will come to see that China is no longer on the sidelines as once thought.

It is one thing to not be aware of China's manipulation of her position in the world, but it's totally another to be decieved by it. Because, the illusion of knowledge is far worse than ignorance.

[foadi]

oneofthem wrote: foadi wrote: oneofthem wrote: I strongly disagree. explain you rposition.
I could be wrong, but I have a feeling that China as a superpower would be less aggressive than the US. they will of course be less aggressive, because the b*****s who are in control over there only wants to prolong their utterly corrupt and unjustified rule, all teh while keeping everyone else slaves. f**k them all.
yeah.

[JDnCoke]

How about we just work out the GDP spending....

US

GDP:

PPP 2005 Millions of $11,628,083 (WorldBank)

PPP 2005 Millions of $11,605,185 (IMF)

Now if the US spends:

$437.111 Billion according to the DoD;
$449.320 Billion according to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute and;
$370.700 Billion according to the CiA World Factbook, then:

(Average from these sources: $419.044 billion. S.D.: $42.310 billion)

For WorldBank PPP the US Spends:

DoD: ($437,111,000,000 / $11,628,083,000,000) x 100 = 3.759% of GDP
SIPRI: ($449,320,000,000 / $11,628,083,000,000) x 100 = 3.864% of GDP
CiA: ($370,700,000,000 / $11,628,083,000,000) x 100 = 3.188% of GDP

For IMF PPP the US Spends:

DoD: ($437,111,000,000 / $11,605,185,000,000) x 100 = 3.767% of GDP
SIPRI: ($449,320,000,000 / $11,605,185,000,000) x 100 = 3.872% of GDP
CiA: ($370,700,000,000 / $11,605,185,000,000) x 100 = 3.194% of GDP

Wow, thats alot of zeros especially considering that many economists have said that to 'fix' Africa it would cost a mere $70 billion... Anyway on average for PPP expenditure we can say quite conclusively that the US spends 3.607% of its PPP GDP on the its military. For statistical buffs out there the Standard Deviation is 0.326%.

And the same again for China:

GDP PPP:

PPP 2005 Millions $7,123,712 (WorldBank)

PPP 2005 Millions of $7,334,254 (IMF)

Now China spends:

$29.900 billion according to Chinese Department for Defence;
$35.400 billion according to the SIPRI;
$90.000 billion according to the US DoD:

(Average for these sources: $51.43 billion. S.D.: $33.475 billion)

For WorldBank PPP the PRC Spends:

PRC DfD: ($29,900,000,000 / $7,123,712,000,000) x 100 = 0.420% of GDP
SIPRI: ($35,400,000,000 / $7,123,712,000,000) x 100 = 0.497% of GDP
US DoD: ($90,000,000,000 / $7,123,712,000,000) x 100 = 1.263% of GDP

For IMF PPP the PRC Spends:

PRC DfD: ($29,900,000,000 / $7,334,254,000,000) x 100 = 0.408%
SIPRI: ($35,400,000,000 / $7,334,254,000,000) x 100 = 0.483%
US DoD: ($90,000,000,000 / $7,334,254,000,000) x 100 = 1.227%

Interesting, these figures aren't anything like what's seen on DoD sites etc - I'm just punching in the numbers... PRC % average for military expenditure is 0.716%. The S.D.: is 0.411%.

Now what the hell does that all mean? Well both absolutely and relatively China spends far less than the US. If we look at Chinese figures as a proportion of US ones China spends, averaged by these sources $51.430 billion a year on its military. The US spends, averaged, $419.044 billion. That means that the US spends over 8x more in absolute terms than China. China is only spending at 12% the US rate.

In terms of relative spending well... Again Chinese figures in proportion to US ones, Chinese average GDP % expenditure is 0.716%, the US: 3.607%. The US spends 5x more than China here, with the Chinese spending at 20% of the US rate.

What the hell does Washington have to fear? US military supremacy is assured... The only countries currently capable of challenging the US on expenditure is the EU which, in total spends $205,326,700,000, less than half the US rate...

[jeechoscopy]

Slayer wrote: jeechoscopy wrote: Danpt2000 wrote: Well, we can't be in the number one spot forever...


After USSR someone have to fill the vacancy… Why not China?
Don’t know why she is doing so…

What would be a threat behind the heavy investment?

Two words COLD WAR

Strange...
America is already at its HOT WAR.

Does America afford the two kinds of wars at a time?

May be she could, but I’m afraid to say Chinese would be more cruel than Muslims.
But it would be a more legal war because states would directly involve… rather than organizations. I’m sure this war would be fought for non-humans… because Man can’t afford 'those' wars in today’s world.

God bless human being.

[Poon]

Sun Bin wrote: Quote: Depite all the taxes that Citizens pay, the U.S. gov't is over $8 trillion in debt. Our social security is becoming insolvent. Where did all the money go? Money for war? Money in the pockets of Corporate elites who are benefiting from Corporate welfare? Money for politicians who are in the pockets of the corporate Elites?
We could do it your way, and pay off the national debt, since it seems that this debt we have is such a big deal, then not worry about government funding of health-care and subsidizing other programs like a broke system like welfare.
Hell, that's all we could focus on for the next 10 years, paying off our National debt, then guess what every Liberal in America would be doing? What they've always been good at... Bitching.
Face it, the U.S. Government can never win, so what's the point for you guys to even bother. Oh yay, so your solution is, we shouldn't even worry about the debt. It should just be business as usual, keep spending more money than the Gov't can afford. So what do you do when the creditors come knocking on your door to collect? Metaphorically, do you keep a shotgun around and tell them to go to hell or "I'll send you to hell"? Sounds like the American way, spend more than what you can afford. Sounds like a recipe for disaster.

Quote: When there is a war that needs to be fought, yes it's up to the Americans to pay for that war. No one expects things like a terrorist attack to pop up some random day in September.. but when it comes time to defend ourselves, who're the ones bitchin'? Can ya see a pattern here? Oh, I know the American people are paying for this war, both in lives and in dollars. Like so many Americans I was led to believe this administration was on a mission to root out terrorism, not using American lives and American resources to go on some kind of personal vendetta and start invading foreign nations. I never b**** about Afghanistan, but Iraq? You bet I'm going to tell it like it is.

[Sun Bin]

Quote: Oh yay, so your solution is, we shouldn't even worry about the debt. It should just be business as usual, keep spending more money than the Gov't can afford. So what do you do when the creditors come knocking on your door to collect? Metaphorically, do you keep a shotgun around and tell them to go to hell or "I'll send you to hell"? Sounds like the American way, spend more than what you can afford. Sounds like a recipe for disaster.

Such a predictable answer from such a predictable source.

I'm not saying we shouldn't worry about the debt. I agree the debt needs to be payed off. I think its very important that we have a well balanced budget that includes paying off our dues and reels in a significant surplus, but you have to understand that the government has a lot on its plate, sometimes more than they would prefer to have. There are programs to fund and organizations out the ass. However, whenever it comes time to do something about it, who are the one's bitching that we're reducing funding on this or that or that we're cuttin too many taxes to pay off our deficits, then complain that taxes are too high, forgetting the reason you didn't want tax cuts in the first place. Make up your freakin' minds.

Quote: Oh, I know the American people are paying for this war, both in lives and in dollars. Like so many Americans I was led to believe this administration was on a mission to root out terrorism, not using American lives and American resources to go on some kind of personal vendetta and start invading foreign nations. I never b**** about Afghanistan, but Iraq? You bet I'm going to tell it like it is.

Then what the hell do you think it is we are fighting then?
9/11 was all the more reason we needed in order to root up the likes of Saddam, the Taliban, and quite possibly Ahmadinejad of Iran. There is no time for bulls**t anymore. There is no time to sit back and determine whether or not Saddam or anyone else out there is a clear direct threat, simply because they haven't attacked us yet. God.. what a shi**y strategy.
You think it's any more legitimate we invaded Afganistan than Iraq? We've been dealing with Iraq for 12-13 F**K** years and now all of a sudden we're wrong in doing something that should've been done years ago. No F**K** wonder Saddam doesn't have anymore WMDs, we gave him all time and chances in the world to do something with them. If there is anyone to blame for this misleading information drawing us into Iraq, start putting blame where blame is due.. Start blaming the intelligence community for not updating their s**t. And if you knew anything about intelligence collection, any intelligence recieved is most likely out of date by the time it hits the president's desk every morning, let alone 12 damn years.
Saddam doesn't have to directly threaten us in order to be any kind of threat. That is the most unstrategic thing I have ever heard. Saddam himself wasn't what we were worried about. We were worried, based on, not false, but out of date information that presented significant proof, he had weapons of mass destruction. We cannot afford for someone like Saddam, with his credibility long gone out the window, having even the chance to develop and deal these kinds of weapons to terrorists. We are not as invincible as would have once believed, 9/11 has proven this, and with this in mind, we have to stay on top of every threat out there, whether we know for sure they have the capabilities to cause something worse than what we have seen thus far, or not. And I hate to hand ya the heartbreaking news, buddy, but going to Iraq was well more than justified...
Hell, Iraqi's firing at our planes patroling the No-Fly Zone, on a sporatic weekly basis since the end of the Gulf war, was more than enough reason to go back and yank his ass out. So if WMDs weren't justification enough.. there's your damn justification.

[Kumar]

The US needs to work with the threatened nations surrounding China and stay strong to protect the innocent from rape and horrendous atrocity.