Political Crossfire Forums

[Plodder]

It is my sincere belif that Mohhamed was a christian, but unsatified with his religion, combined parts of the old testament and other writings and created his own religion around himself. My basis for this statement is 1) look at the similarites btwn The Koran and the Old Testamant. There are so many its not even funny.
2) He recognizes jesus but refuses to concede that he was god. He says that Jesus was geat propohet, but at the same time calls him a liar for identifying huimself as God.
3) Look at the rewards that you recive if you are a man, you go to heaven where earthly pleasures await you. Virgins that will serve you? This seams very earthly to me.
4) Why is it that "all infidels must be killed"... yet one cannot eat pork, or drink alchohol? It seams like there is a confusion on what is improtant.


Now I understand that when one reads this you might be angry. Please understan that I am voicing this because I do not understan Islam very well. I am not Moslem, I am Catholic. I was gravely dissapointed with Europe for the cartoons that were realeased. All I am looking for is an explanation of these things.

[Shady]

Plodder wrote: It is my sincere belif that Mohhamed was a christian, but unsatified with his religion, combined parts of the old testament and other writings and created his own religion around himself. My basis for this statement is 1) look at the similarites btwn The Koran and the Old Testamant. There are so many its not even funny.
2) He recognizes jesus but refuses to concede that he was god. He says that Jesus was geat propohet, but at the same time calls him a liar for identifying huimself as God.
3) Look at the rewards that you recive if you are a man, you go to heaven where earthly pleasures await you. Virgins that will serve you? This seams very earthly to me.
4) Why is it that "all infidels must be killed"... yet one cannot eat pork, or drink alchohol? It seams like there is a confusion on what is improtant.


Now I understand that when one reads this you might be angry. Please understan that I am voicing this because I do not understan Islam very well. I am not Moslem, I am Catholic. I was gravely dissapointed with Europe for the cartoons that were realeased. All I am looking for is an explanation of these things.

While Mohammed's divine inspiration can be debated I doubt he simply formed a religion to please himself. I'll answer the points I can (I'm an atheist so yeah)
2) Jesus's divine origin can be debated just as much as Mohammed's prophetic inspiration- kind of a null point
3)What other type of pleasure do you invision? I wouldn't mind going to heaven and having virgins serve me... do you imagine we go and pray for all eternity? Because that would suck.
4) I don't think the Koran says "kill all infidels" and abstaining from alchohol is common sense. Alchohol impairs judgement- by making it a religious doctrine he eliminated a lot of problems. The pork thing in Judaism as well...

[Plodder]

Quote: I'm an atheist so yeah)
quite frankly I want a Moslem to anwer me . You are not qualifed to answer(being an atheist). Please any one respond!

[Saracen]

I'll answer you as soon as I get some time on my hands.

[Shady]

Plodder wrote: Quote: I'm an atheist so yeah)
quite frankly I want a Moslem to anwer me . You are not qualifed to answer(being an atheist). Please any one respond!

Sure I am qualified to answer some of those statements. The alchohol thing for example was the reasoning given to me by a muslim friend.

[Glorfindel]

Plodder wrote: It is my sincere belif that Mohhamed was a christian, but unsatified with his religion, combined parts of the old testament and other writings and created his own religion around himself. My basis for this statement is 1) look at the similarites btwn The Koran and the Old Testamant. There are so many its not even funny.
2) He recognizes jesus but refuses to concede that he was god. He says that Jesus was geat propohet, but at the same time calls him a liar for identifying huimself as God.
3) Look at the rewards that you recive if you are a man, you go to heaven where earthly pleasures await you. Virgins that will serve you? This seams very earthly to me.
4) Why is it that "all infidels must be killed"... yet one cannot eat pork, or drink alchohol? It seams like there is a confusion on what is improtant.


Now I understand that when one reads this you might be angry. Please understan that I am voicing this because I do not understan Islam very well. I am not Moslem, I am Catholic. I was gravely dissapointed with Europe for the cartoons that were realeased. All I am looking for is an explanation of these things.

ok i'll answer your questions

first of all... let's just think about this... if Mohammed wanted to have his own followers and rule them as a king... don't you think that king would be able to not live in debt with his shield kept as a collateral? yes the ruler of all Arabian peninsula was in debt to a jew and his sheild was taken as collateral..

now lets discuss your 4 points here

1 - of course there are similarities between Islam and Judaism... and there are so many differences as well... the true old testament that was given to Moses and the Koran came from the same God ...that should not be a reason to suspect or say that mohammed was a Jew or a christian

2- of course Mohammed acknowledges and recognizes Jesus as a prophet ..but Jesus was not a God... God sent all those prophets and messengers from Adam to Mohammed with one message for humanity..and that message is to worship him solely and with no partners..and then out of the sudden god tells us that he has a son and we should worship him as well? reporduction is a one of the traits of creatures and not the creator...

Jesus never said he was the son of god and we muslims and prophet mohammed never called Jesus a liar ..in fact I don't know where you got that from... Jesus is a great and admired prophet in Islam ..like all other prophets..and he has a special status in Islam... in Islam it would be blasphemy if a muslim called Jesus a liar

God is one..niether was he born nor he has a son...

3- it does not matter if you are a man or a woman... if you deserve to go to heaven , you will be rewarded... there will be pleasures that resembles our earthly pleasures but are originally different... and the virgin you are so concerned about are not of this world.. they are not like real women who were born in this world.. no they one of the pleasures that those in heaven will enjoy... a man who goes to heaven ... if his wife deserves to go to heaven ..she will also be his wife their and those virgins will not even reach the beauty and glory of that wife..

so even if men will have virgins in heaven.. those virgins will be no match to those women who died and went to heaven

unfortunately, all you know about the picture of heaven in Islam is about those virgins... there is much more than that... in heaven there will be what no eye has seen and no ear has heared and no heart has foreseen

4- thats so not true... and I have an idea where you got that from... I mean the media is spreading all these wrong ideas about Islam...and all these propaganda against this religion..which is totally wrong...

Islam does not say that all infidels must be killed... muslims dont wanna destroy the freedoms of the Us and hate you people... as your politicians say everytime they are on tv...Islam is a religion of peace and tolerance..and there are conditions and cases in which a muslim is permitted ot kill a man.. and being a non-muslim is not one of the cases...

if muslims were taught to kill all non-muslims... why are there about 8 million orthodox christians (Copts) in egypt... why are there still christians in syria , lebanon, palestine, Iraq, and the list goes on...

if you people just think you would know that your politicians are lying... just like their other lies about everything about them... I dont know why you believe them when they talk about Islam when they don't know the simple basic things about it

the muslim conquests were all to give the people the chance to choose between Islam and their old religions... muslims fought persians becuase they did not let the message of Islam get to the people.. muslims fought byzantines because they didnt let their populations to learn about Islam and convert if they wanted

Islam is all about freedom to choose....not a religion that preaches barbarianism nor genocide

about the pork and alcohol... I think if that question came from a muslim would make more sense than coming from a christian ...

you know what pigs eat and where they live... you know what kind of germs and bacteria flow and live within their bodies...

only a look at a pigsty should be enough for you to refrain from eating that dirty animal...pigs eat everything, starting from mud going though human flesh and ending with their own feces... how can you eat such thing

check this link...

http://www.55a.net/firas/english/?page=show_det&id=6&select_page=8

about Alcohol... the US itslef once realized the dangers behind such beverages that it prohibited it in the 30s ... even though the prohibition failed...

and now how many Alcoholics Anonymous meetings are there everyday in one city in america? why are some of you trying to fight alcohol now? they are not muslims... yet they admit and have experienced first-hand the dangers and disadvantages of being drunk or addicted to alcohol

when a man loses his mind and make an animal of himself... when a man tampers with the one thing that distinguishes him from any of god's creatures... I'm talking about the mind if you didnt guess it...

how many people died because of alcohol? how many homes were destroyed because of alcohol?

where is the pleasure in acting like a animal? or not being able to remember what you did?

do you really not see the negatives in eating pork or drinking alcohol?

I'm not angered that you ask these questions.. in fact I'm happy that you wanted to look for the truth...and it would be my pleasure to answer any other questions you got...

peace

[Muslima]

well said glorfindel!

and i hope Plodder understands some of islam!

[Saracen]

Good post, Glorfindel. :tu:

[jeechoscopy]

Plodder, I understand you and you are going to understand Islam. Glorfindel helps you well.

Jesus was considered as a God after his preaching. That’s why we say Bible is not at its real condition due to the translations and modifications. Mohammad’s preaching doesn’t reject him. Even, we have a significant place for Jesus in our hearts and we are too, waiting for his return.

God bless you!!

[Plodder]

Quote: Even, we have a significant place for Jesus in our hearts and we are too, waiting for his return.
? hm? that doesnt make sense.
Quote: of course Mohammed acknowledges and recognizes Jesus as a prophet ..but Jesus was not a God... God sent all those prophets and messengers from Adam to Mohammed with one message for humanity..and that message is to worship him solely and with no partners..and then out of the sudden god tells us that he has a son and we should worship him as well? reporduction is a one of the traits of creatures and not the creator...
How can You know this. Witnesses said that "the heavens opened up and a great voice was heard saying "this is my beloved son..."''
Quote: Islam does not say that all infidels must be killed... I read it in the koran.


Quote: if muslims were taught to kill all non-muslims... why are there about 8 million orthodox christians (Copts) in egypt... why are there still christians in syria , lebanon, palestine, Iraq, and the list goes on I dont think you want me to answer that qustion. I could get kicked out of this forum for it.



Quote:
3- it does not matter if you are a man or a woman... if you deserve to go to heaven , you will be rewarded... there will be pleasures that resembles our earthly pleasures but are originally different... and the virgin you are so concerned about are not of this world.. they are not like real women who were born in this world.. no they one of the pleasures that those in heaven will enjoy... a man who goes to heaven ... if his wife deserves to go to heaven ..she will also be his wife their and those virgins will not even reach the beauty and glory of that wife..

so even if men will have virgins in heaven.. those virgins will be no match to those women who died and went to heaven

unfortunately, all you know about the picture of heaven in Islam is about those virgins... there is much more than that... in heaven there will be what no eye has seen and no ear has heared and no heart has foreseen
but you still admit that earthly pleasures are promised in paradise? This seems like a very . well, human, paradise. It seems like what is promised in Islamic heaven is earthly. In Heaven according to Catholics, we will be truly happy. We will praise God for eternity. We will not need pleasures because we will be completeely happy And full of love.

My point is that an islamic heaven does not seem to appear like a perfect place. I say this based off of your post : Quote: man who goes to heaven ... if his wife deserves to go to heaven ..she will also be his wife their and those virgins will not even reach the beauty and glory of that wife.. This seems like some of us will be inferuior to others and some of the women will not recieve as much attention form the man than what is already presented.


My last problem is with this. Many people speak out aginst the Christian crusades. Many civilians were killed by both sides in these battles that occured for 1000- 1300. How ever, my problem is with this. Preceding the Crusades, Islam spread throuout the Middle east and North africa. you say this : Quote:
the muslim conquests were all to give the people the chance to choose between Islam and their old religions... muslims fought persians becuase they did not let the message of Islam get to the people.. muslims fought byzantines because they didnt let their populations to learn about Islam and convert if they wanted
I have to say that the way that The moslem conquest came and went were by the sword. It was a convert or die scenario. The crusades were originally to provide christians with a way to get to the holy land without being killed for their faith. your staement is contradictory.: Mulim conquests were to give the people to choose whether to choose btwn theu religions and Islam. But that is not true since Islam converted by the sword. Islam was not a fast spreding religion because it initially appealed to people. It spred becuase The people in Medina who were the first Moslems went to war and eventually forcefully converted most of the population to islam, or killed them.

I see that this is going to be a very inflamtory post, but this is some of the questions I have regarding your religion.
I am very secure in my faith, I just wish to become more cultured by learning about yours.

Quote: do you really not see the negatives in eating pork or drinking alcohol? Posrk is actually my favorite meat. Cooking the meat well ensures no harmful side effects. And alchohol drunk in moderation is good for the body. Every thing in excess is bad for you. I drink alchoihol perodically, I have never been drunk though. I went on a trip once to Canada and there I saw many people get drunk and took care of some of them. However, while a good 99% of the peoipele got drunk, I drank in very small amounts, and I had no proiblems whatsoever.

[Saracen]

^You need a history lesson:
http://www.al-bab.com/arab/history.html

Oh, and where in the Koran does it say that infidels should be killed? I never found such a verse. I know my book.

The Muslim "conquest" wasn't a win or die scenario. It was either:
-convert
-live but pay a land tax (1% of annual income, whereas Muslims pay 2.5%)
-killed if the person was an aggressor

To learn more about Islam, check out these links:
http://www.islam-guide.com/
http://www.muhammad.net/
http://www.islam101.com/

You might want to do some thorough research on the issues involved. But if you please take them out one by one, I would be glad to help you, instead of taking it all at a time.

[Plodder]

Quote: Whoever is the enemy of Allah and His angels and His apostles and Jibreel and Meekaeel, so surely Allah is the enemy of the unbelievers.[2.98]


Quote: [2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

Quote: Allah does not guide the unbelieving people.
Quote: so Allah's curse is on the unbelievers Quote: Allah has cursed them on account of their unbelief;

this wbsite had these: Quote: KORAN commands to kill infidels:

Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98

On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161

Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191

Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme. (different translation: ) Fight them until there is no persecution and the religion is God's entirely. - Sura 2:193 and 8:39

Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. - 2:216
(different translation: ) Prescribed for you is fighting, though it is hateful to you.

..... martyrs.... Enter heaven - Surah 3:140-43

If you should die or be killed in the cause of Allah, His mercy and forgiveness would surely be better than all they riches they amass. If you should die or be killed, before Him you shall all be gathered. - 3:157-8

You must not think that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead. They are alive, and well-provided for by their Lord. - Surah 3:169-71

Let those fight in the cause of God who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of God, whether he is slain or victorious, soon we shall give him a great reward. - Surah 4:74

Those who believe fight in the cause of God, and those who reject faith fight in the cause of evil. - 4:76

But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever you find them. - 4:89

Therefore, we stirred among them enmity and hatred, which shall endure till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will declare to them all that they have done. - 5:14

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Those of you who make them his friends is one of them. God does not guide an unjust people. - 5:54

Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme - 8:39

O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are 20 steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish 200; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding. - 8:65

It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land. - 8:67

Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3

When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5

Believers! Know that idolators are unclean. - 9:28

Fight those who believe neither in God nor the Last Day, nor what has been forbidden by God and his messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, even if they are People of the Book, until they pay the tribute and have been humbled. - 9:29 (another source: ) The unbelievers are impure and their abode is hell. (another source: ) Humiliate the non-Muslims to such an extent that they surrender and pay tribute.

Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. - 9:41

O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end. - 9:73

Allah has purchased of their faithful lives and worldly goods, and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, kill and be killed. - 9:111

Fight unbelievers who are near to you. 9:123 (different translation:
Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you. (another source: ) Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers....

As for those who are slain in the cause of Allah, He will not allow their works to perish. He will vouchsafe them guidance and ennoble their state; He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them. - 10:4-15

Allah has cursed the unbelievers and proposed for them a blazing hell. - 33:60

Unbelievers are enemies of Allah and they will roast in hell. - 41:14

When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4
(different translation: ) When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads, and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly.

Those who are slain in the way of Allah - he will never let their deeds be lost. Soon will he guide them and improve their condition, and admit them to the Garden, which he has announced for them. - 47:5

Muslims are harsh against the unbelievers, merciful to one another. - 48:25

Muhammad is Allah's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another. Through them, Allah seeks to enrage the unbelievers. - 48:29

Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate. - 66:9

The unbelievers among the People of the Book and the pagans shall burn forever in the fire of hell. They are the vilest of all creatures. - 98:51

Fight them so that Allah may punish them at your hands, and put them to shame. (verse cited in Newsweek 2/11/02)


www.wvinter.net/~haught/Koran.html

All of these do seem to me to be very anti Infidel.

[Saracen]

Your source... I must discredit it. There are many translations for the Koran, and you'll find out that when you match the verses with the ones here, you'll find out the differences. And I said one at a time. However, I will correct some of them for you.

God wrote: 2:98 Whoever is an enemy to God and His angels and apostles, to Gabriel and Michael,- Lo! God is an enemy to those who reject Faith.

It just says that those who don't believe in God, like athiests, are enemies of God.

God wrote: 2:161 Those who reject Faith, and die rejecting,- on them is God's curse, and the curse of angels, and of all mankind;

Just like any disbelievers. You'll find verses like this in the Bible.

God wrote: 2:191 And slay them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have Turned you out; for tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who suppress faith.

This is in defense. The Koran preaches peace, but it justifies violence in self-defense and wartime.

God wrote: 2:193 And fight them on until there is no more Tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God; but if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practise oppression.

It strictly says that whoever oppresses you must be fought against. More defense.

God wrote: 2:216 Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But God knoweth, and ye know not.

Again, more fighting in self-defense. Many people don't want to defend themselves or their faith, but you should fight.

Man, these verses have been mistranslated HORRIBLY.

God wrote:
48:25 They are the ones who denied Revelation and hindered you from the Sacred Mosque and the sacrificial animals, detained from reaching their place of sacrifice. Had there not been believing men and believing women whom ye did not know that ye were trampling down and on whose account a crime would have accrued to you without (your) knowledge, (God would have allowed you to force your way, but He held back your hands) that He may admit to His Mercy whom He will. If they had been apart, We should certainly have punished the Unbelievers among them with a grievous Punishment.

See how severely mistranslated your verse was? It's talking about non-Muslims who attack you.

God wrote:
5:54 O ye who believe! if any from among you turn back from his Faith, soon will God produce a people whom He will love as they will love Him,- lowly with the believers, mighty against the rejecters, fighting in the way of God, and never afraid of the reproaches of such as find fault. That is the grace of God, which He will bestow on whom He pleaseth. And God encompasseth all, and He knoweth all things.

See? Your verses were mistranslated and put out of context. There's nothing wrong about them. It's the way they were translated... horribly WRONG. I think the person who wrote this site purposefully did this to incite hate. He's not a reliable one. He cut out parts of verses intentionally so as to make you think Islam is bad and the Koran preaches violence, whereas it does not. THe Koran preaches violence in self-defense. I'm not going to bother disproving the other ones, because I'd like you to use the website I gave you and research them.

Meanwhile can you tell me about this?

God wrote: Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)



Kill Witches

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)



Kill Homosexuals
"If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives." (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)



Kill Fortunetellers

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)



Death for Hitting Dad

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)



Death for Cursing Parents

1) If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

2) All who curse their father or mother must be put to death. They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)



Death for Adultery

If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)



Death for Fornication

A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)



Death to Followers of Other Religions

Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed. (Exodus 22:19 NAB)



Kill Nonbelievers

They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman. (2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB)



Kill False Prophets

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, "You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord." When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)



Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)



Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night

But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21 NAB)



Kill Followers of Other Religions.

1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)



2) Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)



Death for Blasphemy

One day a man who had an Israelite mother and an Egyptian father got into a fight with one of the Israelite men. During the fight, this son of an Israelite woman blasphemed the LORD's name. So the man was brought to Moses for judgment. His mother's name was Shelomith. She was the daughter of Dibri of the tribe of Dan. They put the man in custody until the LORD's will in the matter should become clear. Then the LORD said to Moses, "Take the blasphemer outside the camp, and tell all those who heard him to lay their hands on his head. Then let the entire community stone him to death. Say to the people of Israel: Those who blaspheme God will suffer the consequences of their guilt and be punished. Anyone who blasphemes the LORD's name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel. Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD's name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)



Kill False Prophets

1) Suppose there are prophets among you, or those who have dreams about the future, and they promise you signs or miracles, and the predicted signs or miracles take place. If the prophets then say, 'Come, let us worship the gods of foreign nations,' do not listen to them. The LORD your God is testing you to see if you love him with all your heart and soul. Serve only the LORD your God and fear him alone. Obey his commands, listen to his voice, and cling to him. The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt. Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)



2) But any prophet who claims to give a message from another god or who falsely claims to speak for me must die.' You may wonder, 'How will we know whether the prophecy is from the LORD or not?' If the prophet predicts something in the LORD's name and it does not happen, the LORD did not give the message. That prophet has spoken on his own and need not be feared. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22 NLT)



Infidels and Gays Should Die

So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other's bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen. That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved. When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God's death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too. (Romans 1:24-32 NLT)



Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle

For the LORD had said to Moses, 'Exempt the tribe of Levi from the census; do not include them when you count the rest of the Israelites. You must put the Levites in charge of the Tabernacle of the Covenant, along with its furnishings and equipment. They must carry the Tabernacle and its equipment as you travel, and they must care for it and camp around it. Whenever the Tabernacle is moved, the Levites will take it down and set it up again. Anyone else who goes too near the Tabernacle will be executed.' (Numbers 1:48-51 NLT)



Kill People for Working on the Sabbath

The LORD then gave these further instructions to Moses: 'Tell the people of Israel to keep my Sabbath day, for the Sabbath is a sign of the covenant between me and you forever. It helps you to remember that I am the LORD, who makes you holy. Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy. Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community. Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest. I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.' (Exodus 31:12-15 NLT)
http://www.evilbible.com/Murder.htm
Can't you just feel the love?

[Plodder]

all but one of the passages that you gave me were form The Old testamant. In 49 AD the Church decided that all of its members were to be free from the millions of rules that the Levitcus and Deuteronomy gave. The passafge from D=St Paul condems peple to hell, not death. However, Gods death scentece is hell, which is eternal sufferibng after death.

[Saracen]

Plodder wrote: all but one of the passages that you gave me were form The Old testamant. In 49 AD the Church decided that all of its members were to be free from the millions of rules that the Levitcus and Deuteronomy gave. The passafge from D=St Paul condems peple to hell, not death. However, Gods death scentece is hell, which is eternal sufferibng after death.

Likewise, so is the Koran.

[Plodder]

are you saying that just because I said that first?
You didnt say that as a response to my question initially.

Oh and anoter question.: here take it as a scenario

Johnny belives that women should all be subservient to men. Ali thinks tha women are equal to men.Both say that they have justification for what theuy say from the Koran. How is the dispute resolved in a final way?

[Saracen]

Plodder wrote: are you saying that just because I said that first?
You didnt say that as a response to my question initially.

Oh and anoter question.: here take it as a scenario

Johnny belives that women should all be subservient to men. Ali thinks tha women are equal to men.Both say that they have justification for what theuy say from the Koran. How is the dispute resolved in a final way?

I'm saying this because it goes both ways: religious text can't be read at face-value. There has to be some justification for what is being said. The Koran does not justify the murder of anyone:

[5:32]Whosoever murders a man will be made to as if he committed genocide on all of mankind, and whosoever saved a man will also be made as if he saved all of mankind.

As for the scenario, Ali wins:


[4:1] O mankind! reverence your Guardian-Lord, who created you from a single person, created, of like nature, His mate, and from them twain scattered (like seeds) countless men and women;- reverence God, through whom ye demand your mutual (rights), and (reverence) the wombs (That bore you): for God ever watches over you.

No verse in the Koran explicitly approves of men being superior to women when translated correctly.

[Plodder]

But who has the authority to say that?
What if you and someone elso disagree with the meaning of one of the Suras. Then who has the final authority as to what is actually correct?

[Saracen]

Plodder wrote: But who has the authority to say that?
What if you and someone elso disagree with the meaning of one of the Suras. Then who has the final authority as to what is actually correct?

Me. I studied the Koran with a religious tutor who graduated from a university in Lebanon and got a degree in Islamic studies.

[889923445566948]

[quote="Moath"][quote="Plodder"] But who has the authority to say that?
What if you and someone elso disagree with the meaning of one of the Suras. Then who has the final authority as to what is actually correct?[/quote]

Me. I studied the Koran with a religious tutor who graduated from a university in Lebanon and got a degree in Islamic studies.[/quote]

Some very interesting posts. I can say that after reading from those that are muslim, Moath, Glorfindel, et al., I am appreciative of your patience and ability to discuss your faith with those that do not understand much of it. You do a great job! :clap:

To portray Islam as a violent religion is only a reaction to the few that incorrectly invoke violence in the name of Islam. I am learning more about Islam from those posts of these good people and hopefully have a better understanding of muslims over time.

I can say that there is much written about death in the Bible, but I am not familiar with the Torah.

I have colleagues of the Islamic faith and they have included me in their Eid (sp?) celebration at the end of Ramadan. It gave a chance to understand a little more of their faith. They know I am not a muslim, yet no one struck out against me or proclaimed I should die. In fact, no muslim has ever threatened me for not being a muslim.

I commend the dialougue from all of you and consider you decent human beings. I understand that the media only shows images of violence in the muslim world and does not portray the peaceful lives of the majority.