Political Crossfire Forums

[Saracen]

Reform wrote: It's all a stupid ploy to create resentment. Some token muslim was even sent by the oligarchs to stir up the s**t by showing even more insulting cartoons with the prophet portrayed as a pig.

Everyone should take these occurences for what they are, manipulation.

Some of those cartoons were taken from the internet. But yes, it is manipulation and incitement by the Western media to focus on those bastards, whereas I have proved that the majority boycott and condemn.

[leftneckredwing]

politicalmojo wrote: Trajan wrote: Republicant wrote: Whats the deal with a few little cartoons ????

How come flag burnings and death threats from all those peacefull Muslims ?

If Christians got upset anytime a cartoon poked fun at Christianity the earth would be scorched and Humankind would cease to exist .

Shed some light on this for those who truly want to believe the Muslims Religion is a Religion of peace ?

Why don't you stop lumping the nutjobs in with the true followers. And let's not forget things like witch burnings/hangings/tortures, the Inquisition, and that little spat called the Thirty Years War. Or the French Wars of Religion.

All of those events happened many years ago. Not to mention that the Church has specifically apologized for past crimes against others. This includes the crusades and the papacies persecution of Galileo. While Islam has continually advocated the use of force as the best practice of jihad. (Jihad can be waged by peaceful means as well) Not to mention that the Palestanian people elected terrorists to their government further villifing what everyone knows deep down. These Muslims are not a fringe minority but a healthy majority.

Good God man, have you no judgement? How on earth can you possibly justify such a claim and not be termed prejudiced and extremely uninformed?

That is patently absurd and is intentionally designed to foment hatred.

[Ozzone]

Moath wrote: Ozzone wrote: That still doesn't justify burning down embassys. If they don't like it, they can leave.

I'm not defending those people, Ozzone. That's my point.

I know you aren't. That wasn't the point of my post to say you are. I was responding to your comment about: Moath wrote: Did you know that the cartoon wasn't the sole reason for protesting? Europe's intolerance for Muslims drove them into this rage.

Moath wrote: Ozzone wrote: Yep our media is famous for showing the actions of the vocal minority. Especially when they riot and burn down buildings.

It sure is. Your sarcasm wasn't necessary.

What sarcasm? Oh you mean the sarcasm I directed towards our media. So you are defending them now? Being in 100% defensive mode now?

Moath wrote: Ozzone wrote: Then how about instead of saying it is happening, prove it. Show us links. Doesn't Al Jazeera report it?

Here:
http://www.islamophobia-watch.com/

The actions of these lunatics have been condemned by everyone from the MCB to MPAC to Hizb ut-Tahrir. Nobody has defended them. My own view, for what it's worth, is that the police should have intervened and arrested the provocateurs, and prosecuted them under the Public Order Act.

Sorry, but I don't see in your link where any Muslims were arrested in the Middle East. Can you direct me to that in your link? I prefer not to hunt for it.

Moath wrote: Ozzone wrote: Sucking up? No, you'd rather come on here and keep claiming it's a small minority. I guess your police is even a smaller minority. Ponder that for a moment.

It's not our police. They did a bad job in maintaining the peace, but when you have hundreds of protesters, it's hard to do so.

Hundreds? Try thousands and the number seems to be growing exponentially. I can't wait for Russia to kick in with the March exhibit of all the cartoons.

Moath wrote: No wonder there are no riots in Egypt and Saudi Arabia. Just Lebanon and Syria, where the police force is not too strong.

What you think is better policing - I see as a smaller concentration of asshat radicals.

Moath wrote: Ozzone wrote: No wonder you guys have so many problems over there. Get some decent law enforcement.

We don't need any. We've got lower crime rates than the states:
http://www.uib.no/jais/v004ht/04-111-131.htm

Yeah I guess cutting people's hands off when they steal or executing them when they cheat on their spouses does seem to stifle crime a lot. Shame that a few cartoons makes them go ballistic and catches the police with their pants down.

Moath wrote: Ozzone wrote: What be correct? His justification or the fact he is using religion as an excuse? I choose the later.

So would the AQ nutcases. They use religion as an excuse. That's what I meant in the case of the abortion clinic bomber. He seemingly justifies his actions by saying so. Hitler did the same thing with the Holocaust, yet we're not attacking Christianity out of it, because we know what a religion Christianity is. Islam is the same. No better. No worse.

No we aren't attacking Christianity when it was mostly Christians that took his power away by wiping out his fascist military. You were saying?

Moath wrote: Ozzone wrote: So your argument that you have credibility and I don't is because you are Muslim and I'm not? I'll remember that the next time you make a comment about anything American, be it government or our society. I can't wait to throw the zero credibility card at you. Maybe I should look for some of your past posts.

Get ready to be owned:
I frequent the West, and I know of its policies.

I've lived here all my life (50 years) and have probably forgotten more than you will ever learn about America. My son has spent almost 2 years over there and told me all I needed to know. I'll take his word for it anyday over yours. Your ownage is just a dream.

Moath wrote: Ozzone wrote: Our media did not fail to report it.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,183901,00.html

Lo and behold, Fox of all people.

Good for them. They didn't report things like these, though:
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/7A3EA083-2042-469E-82C5-A6A533B589C1.htm
http://www.ameinfo.com/76564.html
http://feeds.denmarknews.net/?rid=0d255dae628ba034&cat=361525af21fa2cde&f=1
http://www.aljazeerah.info/News%20archives/2006%20News%20Archives/January/30n/Boycott%20of%20Danish%20products%20spreads%20to%20UAE.htm
http://www.eastandard.net/hm_news/news.php?articleid=36047
That's what the 98% of Muslims are doing.

What the hell is that got to do with stopping the Muslims from rioting? We all know about the boycotts. Every media source in the world is talking about that. That was not the discussion. The discussion was about Lebanon apologizing for the riots.

Moath wrote: How you love to bash Muslims. You know something? I'd like to bash Christians for going into the war on Iraq and draining the oil from the country.

Be my guest. Everyone else does on here. My skin is thick and I won't burn down your embassy.

Quote: I'd like to bash Christians for not doing something about the corruption in the US admin.

And go right ahead and do that too. Might as well include the Jews, the Muslims, the Hindus, the Buddists, the Shintos, and, last but not least, the Secularists. Our government corruption is nothing compared to many countries in the Middle East. We just don't have media that is told not to print it.

Quote: But you know what? I don't. Because this is a political problem, not religious.

It is both. But that's okay, one million and two. Show me where Blaphemy is in the political dictionary.

[Ozzone]

leftneckredwing wrote: politicalmojo wrote: Trajan wrote: Republicant wrote: Whats the deal with a few little cartoons ????

How come flag burnings and death threats from all those peacefull Muslims ?

If Christians got upset anytime a cartoon poked fun at Christianity the earth would be scorched and Humankind would cease to exist .

Shed some light on this for those who truly want to believe the Muslims Religion is a Religion of peace ?

Why don't you stop lumping the nutjobs in with the true followers. And let's not forget things like witch burnings/hangings/tortures, the Inquisition, and that little spat called the Thirty Years War. Or the French Wars of Religion.

All of those events happened many years ago. Not to mention that the Church has specifically apologized for past crimes against others. This includes the crusades and the papacies persecution of Galileo. While Islam has continually advocated the use of force as the best practice of jihad. (Jihad can be waged by peaceful means as well) Not to mention that the Palestanian people elected terrorists to their government further villifing what everyone knows deep down. These Muslims are not a fringe minority but a healthy majority.

Good God man, have you no judgement? How on earth can you possibly justify such a claim and not be termed prejudiced and extremely uninformed?

That is patently absurd and is intentionally designed to foment hatred.

He did generalize too much. But will you agree that his statement holds true for the Palestinians? After all they did overwhelmingly vote in Hamas over Fatah. Hamas in not a group of peace loving Muslims.

[Saracen]

Ozzone wrote: Sorry, but I don't see in your link where any Muslims were arrested in the Middle East. Can you direct me to that in your link? I prefer not to hunt for it.

Muslims were arrested. The newspapers said so this morning. If you would like me to post a link in Arabic, I would, but you wouldn't understand it. Heck, if I translated, you wouldn't be convinced.

Ozzone wrote: Hundreds? Try thousands and the number seems to be growing exponentially. I can't wait for Russia to kick in with the March exhibit of all the cartoons.

And it's thousands. So what? The number won't grow further.

Ozzone wrote: What you think is better policing - I see as a smaller concentration of asshat radicals.

Oh? Egypt and Saudi Arabia are policed enough. Peaceful protests occurred within them.

Ozzone wrote: Yeah I guess cutting people's hands off when they steal or executing them when they cheat on their spouses does seem to stifle crime a lot. Shame that a few cartoons makes them go ballistic and catches the police with their pants down.

Stop trying to change the subject. When people steal repeatedly, their hands are cut off. Whosoever commits extramarital sex regardless of gender is executed. So what? These cartoons were offensive, and it was never before that the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was brought into public notice in depiction like that. Yes, it is a shame they react like this, because it's the first time they react to a blasphemy about their Prophet.

Ozzone wrote: No we aren't attacking Christianity when it was mostly Christians that took his power away by wiping out his fascist military. You were saying?

And it's the Muslim government of Saudi Arabia hunting down fanatics, as well as Kuwait's. You were saying?
My point is that religion is being used as an excuse. The religion itself is blameless. I know my own religion enough not to admonish me to such terror.

Ozzone wrote: It is both. But that's okay, one million and two. Show me where Blaphemy is in the political dictionary.

That was a reaction to blasphemy. Islam is being attacked using a political tool: a magazine. How's that for a change? Stop wasting your time and attacking my credibility, which is infallible in this matter, because I know what is going on in both the East and the West.

[Saracen]

Ozzone wrote: He did generalize too much. But will you agree that his statement holds true for the Palestinians? After all they did overwhelmingly vote in Hamas over Fatah. Hamas in not a group of peace loving Muslims.

Following your logic, the Israelis are not a bunch of peace-loving Jews. And I'm dead serious on this matter.
Religion has nothing to do with it. A religion can preach peace, but certain followers don't have to be "peace-loving". The majority of Jews and Muslims, though, are peace-loving.

[mojo]

leftneckredwing wrote: politicalmojo wrote: Trajan wrote: Republicant wrote: Whats the deal with a few little cartoons ????

How come flag burnings and death threats from all those peacefull Muslims ?

If Christians got upset anytime a cartoon poked fun at Christianity the earth would be scorched and Humankind would cease to exist .

Shed some light on this for those who truly want to believe the Muslims Religion is a Religion of peace ?

Why don't you stop lumping the nutjobs in with the true followers. And let's not forget things like witch burnings/hangings/tortures, the Inquisition, and that little spat called the Thirty Years War. Or the French Wars of Religion.

All of those events happened many years ago. Not to mention that the Church has specifically apologized for past crimes against others. This includes the crusades and the papacies persecution of Galileo. While Islam has continually advocated the use of force as the best practice of jihad. (Jihad can be waged by peaceful means as well) Not to mention that the Palestanian people elected terrorists to their government further villifing what everyone knows deep down. These Muslims are not a fringe minority but a healthy majority.

Good God man, have you no judgement? How on earth can you possibly justify such a claim and not be termed prejudiced and extremely uninformed?

That is patently absurd and is intentionally designed to foment hatred.

Im just looking at this from a recent point of view. Just look what has happened as of recently in the Middle East. They have elected two extremist organizations into office, Hamas and the Radical Iranian Prime Minister. It's hard for me to ignore it when its so blatantly obvious that Islam expecially recently is rising up in violence for absolutely absurd things. Isreal has already taken all of its troops from occupying Palestine. They are trying the peaceful solution but then the Palestanians are calling for Isreal to be pushed back in to the sea. This has always been Hamas's goal and will continue to be Hamas's goal. These crazed leaders were elected by a Democratic vote. Doesn't this show something to the effect of the general sentiment of the country. I believe its fair to say that it does.

You can't reason people out of situations they didn't reason themselves into.

I am not prejudiced nor racist. I have approached these very sensitive debates with as much class as possible while trying to be quite frank with my opinions. What I am seeing is a disintegration of culture.

[mojo]

Moath wrote: politicalmojo wrote: Really sounds like a pretty plausible argument to me. Whats the point of a religion if its followers dont interpret it the way it was meant to be interpreted. These aren't little sins like the Christians are guilty of commiting these are ginormous ones like for instance running planes into buildings. That seems like a fairly large misinterpretation.

I provided you with a poll earlier that showed Muslim sentiment toward the US. Now if you are so write can you please provede me a poll that is in favor of Isreal's right ot exist or a poll that showed that they don't support terror.

Here's the poll:
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/92C2A0B5-793F-4409-9CEA-A4F7E4985850.htm
The story of Hamas is something else altogether. I already mentioned that it's not just a petty terrorist group, but also a group that provides for the Palestinians. The Palestinians didn't support "terror", but they supported the party that cared FOR them.
Also, as I have provided countless times, Islam is against such an act. Radicalization in Islam is great, I know, and it's an outspoken minority. Yet, they get the most media coverage. You will not find a lot of Muslims supporting Bin Laden or his bunch. We're all anti-terrorist and pro-Palestinian here in the Middle East.

Who cares about these programs. Are the Palestanian people so stupid as to elect people because they give them free stuff. Even if it means electing murderers. The West does not elect murderers, ever. Hamas doesn't even pretend to not want to murder. They celebrated in the streets calling it a victory when Isreal decided to withdraw troops from Gaza. Isreal is trying peace but these people do not want to listen.

[leftneckredwing]

Quote: Im just looking at this from a recent point of view. Just look what has happened as of recently in the Middle East. They have elected two extremist organizations into office, Hamas and the Radical Iranian Prime Minister. It's hard for me to ignore it when its so blatantly obvious that Islam expecially recently is rising up in violence for absolutely absurd things. Isreal has already taken all of its troops from occupying Palestine. They are trying the peaceful solution but then the Palestanians are calling for Isreal to be pushed back in to the sea. This has always been Hamas's goal and will continue to be Hamas's goal. These crazed leaders were elected by a Democratic vote. Doesn't this show something to the effect of the general sentiment of the country. I believe its fair to say that it does.

You can't reason people out of situations they didn't reason themselves into.

I am not prejudiced nor racist. I have approached these very sensitive debates with as much class as possible while trying to be quite frank with my opinions. What I am seeing is a disintegration of culture.

You said and I quote:

Quote: These Muslims are not a fringe minority but a healthy majority.

That is completely preposterous. It is a disintegration of culture that propels statements like this. And a willingness to demonise a religion and a population.

White people elected Hitler and Mussolini. Were white people therefore a radical population?

Give your head a shake.

[Saracen]

politicalmojo wrote: It's hard for me to ignore it when its so blatantly obvious that Islam expecially recently is rising up in violence for absolutely absurd things.

You speak of Islam as if it were a movement or a rise. Do you think now that Hamas and the Iranian government represent ALL Muslims now? That they represent ALL Palestinians? They were elected citing corruption of other parties as well as what these parties did to support the peopele (i.e. campaigning).
Islam is not as unified as Catholicism is. You're bringing Islam into the equation whereas the people involved are Muslims. I told you: Islam does not admonish people to violence. Some Muslims do. Just like Christianity does not admonish you to steal oil or bomb abortion clinics.

politicalmojo wrote: What I am seeing is a disintegration of culture.

There is no culture disintegrating here. Our culture is fine, thank you very much.

[Saracen]

leftneckredwing wrote: Quote: Im just looking at this from a recent point of view. Just look what has happened as of recently in the Middle East. They have elected two extremist organizations into office, Hamas and the Radical Iranian Prime Minister. It's hard for me to ignore it when its so blatantly obvious that Islam expecially recently is rising up in violence for absolutely absurd things. Isreal has already taken all of its troops from occupying Palestine. They are trying the peaceful solution but then the Palestanians are calling for Isreal to be pushed back in to the sea. This has always been Hamas's goal and will continue to be Hamas's goal. These crazed leaders were elected by a Democratic vote. Doesn't this show something to the effect of the general sentiment of the country. I believe its fair to say that it does.

You can't reason people out of situations they didn't reason themselves into.

I am not prejudiced nor racist. I have approached these very sensitive debates with as much class as possible while trying to be quite frank with my opinions. What I am seeing is a disintegration of culture.

You said and I quote:

Quote: These Muslims are not a fringe minority but a healthy majority.

That is completely preposterous. It is a disintegration of culture that propels statements like this. And a willingness to demonise a religion and a population.

White people elected Hitler and Mussolini. Were white people therefore a radical population?

Give your head a shake.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

[mojo]

leftneckredwing wrote: Quote: Im just looking at this from a recent point of view. Just look what has happened as of recently in the Middle East. They have elected two extremist organizations into office, Hamas and the Radical Iranian Prime Minister. It's hard for me to ignore it when its so blatantly obvious that Islam expecially recently is rising up in violence for absolutely absurd things. Isreal has already taken all of its troops from occupying Palestine. They are trying the peaceful solution but then the Palestanians are calling for Isreal to be pushed back in to the sea. This has always been Hamas's goal and will continue to be Hamas's goal. These crazed leaders were elected by a Democratic vote. Doesn't this show something to the effect of the general sentiment of the country. I believe its fair to say that it does.

You can't reason people out of situations they didn't reason themselves into.

I am not prejudiced nor racist. I have approached these very sensitive debates with as much class as possible while trying to be quite frank with my opinions. What I am seeing is a disintegration of culture.

You said and I quote:

Quote: These Muslims are not a fringe minority but a healthy majority.

That is completely preposterous. It is a disintegration of culture that propels statements like this. And a willingness to demonise a religion and a population.

White people elected Hitler and Mussolini. Were white people therefore a radical population?

Give your head a shake.

We define radicals as people who support terrorism.

Hamas is a terrorist organization.

The People elected Hamas to power with an overwhelming majority.

Therefore the palestanian people support terrorism.

That is my logic and it looks pretty solid.

Actually yes Germans were a radical population. But also white people rose up and defeated those extremists. But their is no such strong movement in Islam or the Middle East.

[Ozzone]

Moath wrote: Ozzone wrote: Sorry, but I don't see in your link where any Muslims were arrested in the Middle East. Can you direct me to that in your link? I prefer not to hunt for it.

Muslims were arrested. The newspapers said so this morning. If you would like me to post a link in Arabic, I would, but you wouldn't understand it. Heck, if I translated, you wouldn't be convinced.

Probably not. My opinion of you has gone downhill real fast since you first started posting. I pretty much left you alone because most of what you said seemed logical, but I guess what triggered me is your claim that these riots have nothing to do with religion. I'm sorry, but BLASPHEMY isn't a political issue. It seemed pretty obvious that you were playing the damage control game but your hand was weak.

Moath wrote: Ozzone wrote: Hundreds? Try thousands and the number seems to be growing exponentially. I can't wait for Russia to kick in with the March exhibit of all the cartoons.

And it's thousands. So what? The number won't grow further.

I'll remember you said that and bookmark it. When it hits 10s of 1000s, I'll make sure I quote this.

Moath wrote: Ozzone wrote: What you think is better policing - I see as a smaller concentration of asshat radicals.

Oh? Egypt and Saudi Arabia are policed enough. Peaceful protests occurred within them.

Nice of you to just confirm exactly what I said.

Moath wrote: Ozzone wrote: Yeah I guess cutting people's hands off when they steal or executing them when they cheat on their spouses does seem to stifle crime a lot. Shame that a few cartoons makes them go ballistic and catches the police with their pants down.

Stop trying to change the subject. When people steal repeatedly, their hands are cut off. Whosoever commits extramarital sex regardless of gender is executed. So what? These cartoons were offensive, and it was never before that the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) was brought into public notice in depiction like that. Yes, it is a shame they react like this, because it's the first time they react to a blasphemy about their Prophet.

Wait a sec. I thought you said this was all political and had nothing to do with religion. Can you make up your mind? You waffle more than John Kerry now.

Moath wrote: Ozzone wrote: No we aren't attacking Christianity when it was mostly Christians that took his power away by wiping out his fascist military. You were saying?

And it's the Muslim government of Saudi Arabia hunting down fanatics, as well as Kuwait's. You were saying?
My point is that religion is being used as an excuse. The religion itself is blameless. I know my own religion enough not to admonish me to such terror.

Well obviously 1000s of other Muslims dont' see it the same way you do. They can't help themselves torching embassys and starting riots. The religion may be blameless, but 1000s practicing it aren't.

I am not admonishing you. I am saying that you need to open your eyes to what 1000s of your fellow Muslims are doing.

Moath wrote: Ozzone wrote: It is both. But that's okay, one million and two. Show me where Blaphemy is in the political dictionary.

That was a reaction to blasphemy. Islam is being attacked using a political tool: a magazine. How's that for a change? Stop wasting your time and attacking my credibility, which is infallible in this matter, because I know what is going on.

Your credibility is not infallible. Not when you claim that what is going on right now in the Middle East has nothing to do with religion. It is, point blank, a major battle between freedom of speech and religious tolerance with a side order of politics. The boycotts and riots/burnings are a result.

[Saracen]

politicalmojo wrote: We define radicals as people who support terrorism.

Hamas is a terrorist organization.

The People elected Hamas to power with an overwhelming majority.

Therefore the palestanian people support terrorism.

That's your opinion. The Palestinians chose Hamas because Hamas cared for the Palestinian people. They dropped the call for the destruction of Israel from their manifesto before the elections, not to mention that they were holding a truce. The Palestinian people support a free state for themselves ruled by a party that CARES for them instead of Fatah, a party that hogged the national reserve for itself.

politicalmojo wrote: Actually yes Germans were a radical population. But also white people rose up and defeated those extremists. But their is no such strong movement in Islam or the Middle East.

There is a movement against AQ in the Gulf states, and it's the governments. And they're doing a fine job at dealing with the problem within their own community. Islam is not one society. It's a religion, and it's not as unified as Christianity is. If people realized that Christians in the states were bombing abortion clinics, does that mean that Christians living in Europe should go fix the problem?

As for Hamas, that is a different story: they support the Palestinians more than Fatah does. Fatah s*cks up to the Israelis for all I know.

[Ozzone]

Moath wrote: Ozzone wrote: He did generalize too much. But will you agree that his statement holds true for the Palestinians? After all they did overwhelmingly vote in Hamas over Fatah. Hamas in not a group of peace loving Muslims.

Following your logic, the Israelis are not a bunch of peace-loving Jews.

They aren't.

Quote: And I'm dead serious on this matter.

Fine, I agree with you.

Quote: Religion has nothing to do with it. A religion can preach peace, but certain followers don't have to be "peace-loving". The majority of Jews and Muslims, though, are peace-loving.

Most religions preach peace. In the current world today, the overwhelming majority of terrorism falls smack dab right on the Islamic religon though. Prove it doesn't. Show me numbers of terrorist attacks in the last 5 years or so, that weren't carried out by Muslims.

[Ozzone]

Moath wrote: As for Hamas, that is a different story: they support the Palestinians more than Fatah does. Fatah s*cks up to the Israelis for all I know.

So that's what it is. Fatah is a stoolie for the Jews and Hamas suicide bombs them so Hamas supports the Palestinians. Gotcha.

[Saracen]

Ozzone wrote: Most religions preach peace. In the current world today, the overwhelming majority of terrorism falls smack dab right on the Islamic religon though. Prove it doesn't. Show me numbers of terrorist attacks in the last 5 years or so, that weren't carried out by Muslims.

It does not fall on the religion, but a few of its misguided followers.
http://www.nogw.com/israeliatrocities.html
Oh, and let's not forget the invasion of Iraq.

Islam denounces terrorism. I've already said that before. And I've posted tens of links like it.
http://www.cair-net.org/?Page=articleView&id=1675&theType=NR
http://www.saudiembassy.net/2004News/Press/PressDetail.asp?cYear=2004&cIndex=217

Ozzone wrote: I'll remember you said that and bookmark it. When it hits 10s of 1000s, I'll make sure I quote this.

Don't blame them, though.

Ozzone wrote: Wait a sec. I thought you said this was all political and had nothing to do with religion. Can you make up your mind? You waffle more than John Kerry now.

Did you get what I just said?
The Danish cartoons brought religion into the issue by making fun of it in a bad way.
Thus, the Danes brought religion into the issue, not the Muslims.

Ozzone wrote: Well obviously 1000s of other Muslims dont' see it the same way you do. They can't help themselves torching embassys and starting riots. The religion may be blameless, but 1000s practicing it aren't.

I am not admonishing you. I am saying that you need to open your eyes to what 1000s of your fellow Muslims are doing.

I know what I said. My eyes are open to everything. You need to open your eyes to the Muslims who aren't going about doing such acts. And believe it or not, these riots are being condemned and controlled.

Ozzone wrote: Your credibility is not infallible. Not when you claim that what is going on right now in the Middle East has nothing to do with religion. It is, point blank, a major battle between freedom of speech and religious tolerance with a side order of politics. The boycotts and riots/burnings are a result.

It is infallible because I know that the Middle East is affected by this issue. Islam as a doctrine is not to blame, but only Muslims are for this inventive. The Danish cartoonists proved to be intolerant. That intolerance brought up anger.

[Saracen]

Ozzone wrote: So that's what it is. Fatah is a stoolie for the Jews and Hamas suicide bombs them so Hamas supports the Palestinians. Gotcha.

Stop trolling. I said that Hamas supports the Palestinians in that they provide food, medicine and aid. The Palestinians themselves don't want terror, especially Israeli terrorism:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_terrorism

Quote: In a July 29, 2005 interview in the Nazareth-based Arab-Israeli newspaper Kul al-Arab, former Israeli Minister of Education Shulamit Aloni stated that "terror utilized by Israel in the territories is worse than Palestinian terrorism"[10]. Military operations into Palestinian territory, the alleged harassment of Palestinian civilians by both military personnel and Israeli citizens, and the deaths of civilians during the assassination of Arab militant leaders have also resulted in human-rights criticism. For example, in 1982, an assassination attempt on Yasser Arafat killed 200 people when a Beirut apartment block was destroyed by an Israeli bomb, and in 1985, 73 people were killed in another assassination attempt on Arafat in Tunis. [11].

Hamas is already going by their truce. All you have to do is wait and see. But it seems that you like to rush head-on and incite more conflict yourself by wiping out Hamas and the Palestinians. And I thought I was the one inciting death and violence. :roll:

[Ozzone]

Moath wrote: Ozzone wrote: Most religions preach peace. In the current world today, the overwhelming majority of terrorism falls smack dab right on the Islamic religon though. Prove it doesn't. Show me numbers of terrorist attacks in the last 5 years or so, that weren't carried out by Muslims.

It does not fall on the religion, but a few of its misguided followers.

Misguided followers. All over the world. That few is 1000s.

Quote: Oh, and let's not forget the invasion of Iraq.

Irrelevent redirection.

Quote: Islam denounces terrorism. I've already said that before. And I've posted tens of links like it.
http://www.cair-net.org/?Page=articleView&id=1675&theType=NR
http://www.saudiembassy.net/2004News/Press/PressDetail.asp?cYear=2004&cIndex=217

We denounce Christian whackos too and we actually try and stop them. Lip service means nothing.

Quote: Ozzone wrote: I'll remember you said that and bookmark it. When it hits 10s of 1000s, I'll make sure I quote this.

Don't blame them, though.

No, I will blame you because you said this:

"And it's thousands. So what? The number won't grow further."

Quote: Ozzone wrote: Wait a sec. I thought you said this was all political and had nothing to do with religion. Can you make up your mind? You waffle more than John Kerry now.

Did you get what I just said?
The Danish cartoons brought religion into the issue by making fun of it in a bad way.
Thus, the Danes brought religion into the issue, not the Muslims.

Where did I say the Danes didn't bring religion into it? Of course they did. The Muslims retaliated in defense of their religion. They rioted in defense of their religion. They torched embassys in anger because of their religion.

See? It is not just political - it is freedom of speech vs. religion. Do you get it yet?

Quote: Ozzone wrote: Well obviously 1000s of other Muslims dont' see it the same way you do. They can't help themselves torching embassys and starting riots. The religion may be blameless, but 1000s practicing it aren't.

I am not admonishing you. I am saying that you need to open your eyes to what 1000s of your fellow Muslims are doing.

I know what I said. My eyes are open to everything. You need to open your eyes to the Muslims who aren't going about doing such acts. And believe it or not, these riots are being condemned and controlled.

I see exactly what the Muslims are doing that are exhibiting uncontrollable violence. I have no problem with the boycotts. That is their right and I defend that 100%.

What I have trouble with is the "misguided" Muslims that are escalating the problem with blatant violence. Refusing to buy Danish dairy products is one thing, but committing acts of aggressive violence is entirely different and inexcusable.

Quote: Ozzone wrote: Your credibility is not infallible. Not when you claim that what is going on right now in the Middle East has nothing to do with religion. It is, point blank, a major battle between freedom of speech and religious tolerance with a side order of politics. The boycotts and riots/burnings are a result.

It is infallible because I know that the Middle East is affected by this issue. Islam as a doctrine is not to blame, but only Muslims are for this inventive. The Danish cartoonists proved to be intolerant. That intolerance brought up anger.

So much anger that they decided to burn down embassys and make deadly threats. Not just a handful of Muslims, but 1000s and growing. They are getting even more pissed that European governments refuse to appease them all in the name of "tolerance" and to hell with freedom of speech. That is what the core crux of the problem is. Europeans will not apologize and not appease and my hat goes off to them. I've had my differences in the past with Europe, but they are quickly proving that freedom of speech is not for sale.

[Ozzone]

Moath wrote: Ozzone wrote: So that's what it is. Fatah is a stoolie for the Jews and Hamas suicide bombs them so Hamas supports the Palestinians. Gotcha.

Stop trolling.

I wasn't trolling, I just interpreted your comment about Fatah and Israel.

Quote: I said that Hamas supports the Palestinians in that they provide food, medicine and aid. The Palestinians themselves don't want terror, especially Israeli terrorism:

Well let them prove it. Talk is cheap.

Quote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_terrorism

Quote: In a July 29, 2005 interview in the Nazareth-based Arab-Israeli newspaper Kul al-Arab, former Israeli Minister of Education Shulamit Aloni stated that "terror utilized by Israel in the territories is worse than Palestinian terrorism"[10]. Military operations into Palestinian territory, the alleged harassment of Palestinian civilians by both military personnel and Israeli citizens, and the deaths of civilians during the assassination of Arab militant leaders have also resulted in human-rights criticism. For example, in 1982, an assassination attempt on Yasser Arafat killed 200 people when a Beirut apartment block was destroyed by an Israeli bomb, and in 1985, 73 people were killed in another assassination attempt on Arafat in Tunis. [11].

Wikipedia is a great source but not always 100% accurate since posters can modify it.

Quote: Hamas is already going by their truce.

So far, but how many days has it been? I have very little faith that Hamas will stick to the truce.

Quote: All you have to do is wait and see.

Exactly, if a few months go by and they have honored the truce, I'll relent a little. But I'm not holding my breath.

Quote: But it seems that you like to rush head-on and incite more conflict yourself by wiping out Hamas and the Palestinians. And I thought I was the one inciting death and violence. :roll:

No I don't. I just don't trust Hamas (with good reason based on their history). I'm not the only one.