Political Crossfire Forums

wormwood · Joined: 25 Sep 2005 Posts: 2341 Location: The P-Brane

I have made this argument plenty of times but I was curious to see what you guys thought. I say this not because much of science grew out of the occult (like chemistry) which it did. And not because many scientists of renown used the occult as either the forefront or background of their research (like Isaac Newton) which they did. No I am making an open ended assertion here that the ancient practices of the occult and the modern practice of science share, at their core, an almost identical essence. For example, both seek to augment human beings abilities, and the world around them. Both can be used for enlightenment, or destruction, and both share a morality of accomplishing the desired goal with any means necessary. Both Science and the occult, seek not only to obtain power over natural forces, but broaden the human experience through the creating of new and foreign stimuli. They both have rituals and standards that serve as "proof". The only major difference, is that one side of the coin is socially acceptable and one is not. For example if a witch had been seen flying around, she would have been burned at the stake, when the Wright brothers did it, they were national heroes.

If you can not see science as the modern occult, could you at least recognize that the originate in the same part of the human psyche; the part that wants to rise above the fear of the unknown and become master of your surroundings?

mojo · Joined: 08 Sep 2005 Posts: 5442 Location: Dreamland, NC

wormwood wrote: I have made this argument plenty of times but I was curious to see what you guys thought. I say this not because much of science grew out of the occult (like chemistry) which it did. And not because many scientists of renown used the occult as either the forefront or background of their research (like Isaac Newton) which they did. No I am making an open ended assertion here that the ancient practices of the occult and the modern practice of science share, at their core, an almost identical essence. For example, both seek to augment human beings abilities, and the world around them. Both can be used for enlightenment, or destruction, and both share a morality of accomplishing the desired goal with any means necessary. Both Science and the occult, seek not only to obtain power over natural forces, but broaden the human experience through the creating of new and foreign stimuli. They both have rituals and standards that serve as "proof". The only major difference, is that one side of the coin is socially acceptable and one is not. For example if a witch had been seen flying around, she would have been burned at the stake, when the Wright brothers did it, they were national heroes.

If you can not see science as the modern occult, could you at least recognize that the originate in the same part of the human psyche; the part that wants to rise above the fear of the unknown and become master of your surroundings?

Are you trying to demean the use of science? Because science and the pursuit of the truths in this world is one of the most noble things a human being can strive to achieve. Are you trying to debase these people's work. Because that is what science is, work. It has nothing to do with occults or ancient rituals. Scientific progress should be applauded by all religions not lowered to some kind of level where it is spit upon by the populace. Scientists are in pursuit of the same things spiritual people are that is the truth. If you were to truly have faith then you wouldn't be scared of the outcome science reveals.

wormwood · Joined: 25 Sep 2005 Posts: 2341 Location: The P-Brane

Quote: Are you trying to demean the use of science? Because science and the pursuit of the truths in this world is one of the most noble things a human being can strive to achieve. Are you trying to debase these people's work. So uh...what the hell are you talking about? It has nothing to do with lowering anything. If you feel that way, I assure you it is because of personal biases/issues and not because it's inherent in the statement.

Quote: Because that is what science is, work. It has nothing to do with occults or ancient rituals. As far as I know, there is only ONE occult (The word occult is derived from the Latin word occultus which means "hidden". ) So occult means hidden knowledge, therefore any knowledge that is "hidden" from the public, is technically "occult"...there aren't multiple "occults". LMAO.

Quote: Scientific progress should be applauded by all religions not lowered to some kind of level where it is spit upon by the populace. Like I said, if that is your reaction, then it sounds like a personal problem. You have been programmed to think that way, so I shouldn't judge you.....but I will :lol:

Quote: Scientists are in pursuit of the same things spiritual people are that is the truth. Exactly, and that is what the occult is. You just don't recognize it because of your Roman programming...King Solomon (ya know, that guy from your bible) seemed to agree with me on this subject, that "occult" powers could be used for the greater good. The roots of many practices are in Judaism, and the only reason they survived (besides Arab scholars) is because of the uncanny number of Catholic priests that have also practiced the art of the centuries. Hell, even Jesus knew how to banish demons...but you're right...we're probably ALL just misguided sinners who deserve to be "spit upon".

Quote: If you were to truly have faith then you wouldn't be scared of the outcome science reveals :lol: When did I express a fear of science? You are truly delusional friend...but keep it up, you are good for a laugh at least :lol:

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 8465

I like the post wormwood. I hadn't thought of science in that way before, but it does make a lot of sense.

wormwood · Joined: 25 Sep 2005 Posts: 2341 Location: The P-Brane

Quote: I like the post wormwood. I hadn't thought of science in that way before, but it does make a lot of sense. Thanks. Is that a partial agreement?

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Science, the new magick. :lol:

One one level they are the same, for sure, and that is there's a good bit of muddling around in the dark going on in both.

Interesting thought, though. I've considered similar ideas, as well.

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 8465

wormwood wrote: Quote: I like the post wormwood. I hadn't thought of science in that way before, but it does make a lot of sense. Thanks. Is that a partial agreement?

I would say that the overarching goals of the two are the same, yes.

thefranzkafkafront · Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 3:15 pm Post subject:

Science was only really associated with the occult while in the europe during the dark ages/ medevial ages.

wormwood · Joined: 25 Sep 2005 Posts: 2341 Location: The P-Brane

Quote: Science was only really associated with the occult while in the europe during the dark ages/ medevial ages. Not true, I am making that association presently. 8:) Also, I think of the middle ages as the split of different forms of occult practices into acceptable and not acceptable by the church. And remember occult is from the root "occultus" which means "hidden". And while much of science is common knowledge...do you know how to make chemical weapons? How about how to setup a nuclear power plant...powerful knowledge is still guarded.

Eternal · Joined: 29 Mar 2005 Posts: 2043 Location: Somewhere

wormwood wrote: I have made this argument plenty of times but I was curious to see what you guys thought. I say this not because much of science grew out of the occult (like chemistry) which it did. And not because many scientists of renown used the occult as either the forefront or background of their research (like Isaac Newton) which they did. No I am making an open ended assertion here that the ancient practices of the occult and the modern practice of science share, at their core, an almost identical essence. For example, both seek to augment human beings abilities, and the world around them. Both can be used for enlightenment, or destruction, and both share a morality of accomplishing the desired goal with any means necessary. Both Science and the occult, seek not only to obtain power over natural forces, but broaden the human experience through the creating of new and foreign stimuli. They both have rituals and standards that serve as "proof". The only major difference, is that one side of the coin is socially acceptable and one is not. For example if a witch had been seen flying around, she would have been burned at the stake, when the Wright brothers did it, they were national heroes.

If you can not see science as the modern occult, could you at least recognize that the originate in the same part of the human psyche; the part that wants to rise above the fear of the unknown and become master of your surroundings?

Firstly, you seem to be confusing the method of science with the application of science. The method of science is ultimately a tool, much like a hammer. It’s impassive in that it ultimately has no purpose in life other than to be used according to its masters bidding. However, like the hammer, for it to be effective it can only be used in a particular manner and as such it has limitations.

Secondly, and more importantly, you need to realise that all of the methods that we have developed to give meaning, understanding and knowledge of the world we live in - the arts, the sciences, philosophy and theology – will in some way make our lives better. That’s what knowledge inevitably does.

Finally, the fact that science is more socially acceptable in today’s society than magic is simply because science works. There’s no better evidence of this than to simply compare the improvement in our standard of living over the past 300 years in comparison with the last 10,000.

Cheers, Eternal

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: the fact that science is more socially acceptable in today’s society than magic is simply because science works.
Depends on what you think "works" means.

Eternal · Joined: 29 Mar 2005 Posts: 2043 Location: Somewhere

cap'n queasy wrote: Depends on what you think "works" means.

By works I mean that it is effective in achieving it's goals. Who would you prefer to re-attach your severed arm, a team of trained surgeons or a tribal shaman?

Cheers, Eternal

Eternal · Joined: 29 Mar 2005 Posts: 2043 Location: Somewhere

wormwood wrote: Quote: Science was only really associated with the occult while in the europe during the dark ages/ medevial ages. Not true, I am making that association presently. 8:) Also, I think of the middle ages as the split of different forms of occult practices into acceptable and not acceptable by the church. And remember occult is from the root "occultus" which means "hidden". And while much of science is common knowledge...do you know how to make chemical weapons? How about how to setup a nuclear power plant...powerful knowledge is still guarded.

You can easily learn to make chemical weapons and nuclear power plants. All you need to do is study, and for the latter find a source of uranium.

Cheers, Eternal

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Eternal wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Depends on what you think "works" means.

By works I mean that it is effective in achieving it's goals. Who would you prefer to re-attach your severed arm, a team of trained surgeons or a tribal shaman?

Cheers, Eternal
Some goals, perhaps.

Yes, science works if that particular goal is sought. What about other goals?

World peace and all that? Doesn't seem that science has helped much with that. In fact you could say it hinders that goal more than it helps it.

Eternal · Joined: 29 Mar 2005 Posts: 2043 Location: Somewhere

cap'n queasy wrote: Some goals, perhaps.

Yes, science works if that particular goal is sought. What about other goals?

World peace and all that? Doesn't seem that science has helped much with that. In fact you could say it hinders that goal more than it helps it.

I wouldn't disagree with that notion either. As I stated before, we humans have developed a number of methods to uncover meaning, understanding and knowledge of the world we live in. The arts, the sciences, philosophy and theology (to a lesser extent :-D ) all have strengths and weaknesses. The key is to find the right balance.

Cheers, Eternal

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: 2 Chronicles 34:23 She said to them, "Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, 'Tell the man who sent you to Me, 24 thus says the LORD, "Behold, I am bringing evil on this place and on its inhabitants, even all the curses written in the book which they have read in the presence of the king of Judah. 25 "Because they have forsaken Me and have burned incense to other gods, that they might provoke Me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore My wrath will be poured out on this place and it shall not be quenched.'"

Funny how the works of human hands always go wrong, especially when misguided religious people take the approach that the "Lord helps those who help themselves". The medieval Church thought the works of their hands would save humanity, look at how that turned out, for an example.

The key to balance, in my humble opinion, is to trust the works of the Lord's hands and not our own works.

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 8465

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: 2 Chronicles 34:23 She said to them, "Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, 'Tell the man who sent you to Me, 24 thus says the LORD, "Behold, I am bringing evil on this place and on its inhabitants, even all the curses written in the book which they have read in the presence of the king of Judah. 25 "Because they have forsaken Me and have burned incense to other gods, that they might provoke Me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore My wrath will be poured out on this place and it shall not be quenched.'"

Funny how the works of human hands always go wrong, especially when misguided religious people take the approach that the "Lord helps those who help themselves". The medieval Church thought the works of their hands would save humanity, look at how that turned out, for an example.

The key to balance, in my humble opinion, is to trust the works of the Lord's hands and not our own works.

Science and religion have the same ultimate goal: to discover things about ourselves and our worlds. Look at ancient Greek mythology. Lightning occurred because Zeus was angry and throwing down his thunderbolts. Fast forward to modern religious mythology and we end up with similar assumptions. Christian, Wiccan, Jewish (and other) mythologies work the same way. When we die we go to "heaven", "the summerlands", etc. It is no different.

Science is trying to explain things that we don't understand. Religion does the same.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

I give science and religion about the same credibility. Blundering around in the dark.

There is only one Light and it won't come to you by experimentation or ritual.

It's a gift. You can't earn it, you can't make it with your hands, and you can't figure it out on your own.

wormwood · Joined: 25 Sep 2005 Posts: 2341 Location: The P-Brane

Quote: It’s impassive in that it ultimately has no purpose in life other than to be used according to its masters bidding. However, like the hammer, for it to be effective it can only be used in a particular manner and as such it has limitations. This applies to science AND the occult, hence the comparison.

Quote: Secondly, and more importantly, you need to realise that all of the methods that we have developed to give meaning, understanding and knowledge of the world we live in - the arts, the sciences, philosophy and theology – will in some way make our lives better. That’s what knowledge inevitably does. This is also a dual comparison.

Quote: Finally, the fact that science is more socially acceptable in today’s society than magic is simply because science works. There’s no better evidence of this than to simply compare the improvement in our standard of living over the past 300 years in comparison with the last 10,000. You say two things of interest here. One: the effectiveness of magic...you and I are probably referring to completely different things... I don't believe in people using magic to fly around or summon visible entities or anything of that sort...the effects are mild and not along those lines at all. Two: The leaps and bounds of technology in the present. The GREATEST period in human development, even greater than today and the renaissance, was the dawn of civilization...this was the dawn of science and the occult as we know it, and the two were indistinguishable, because as the Sumerians say, all the knowledge they have (astronomy, mathematics, writing, metallurgy, religion, domestication of plants and animals, etc etc etc) they got from the gods.

Quote: By works I mean that it is effective in achieving it's goals. Who would you prefer to re-attach your severed arm, a team of trained surgeons or a tribal shaman? Both would be equally ineffective. Severing a major appendage like the arm would cause major blood loss and necrosis of the tissue, I doubt either could help you reattach it. Also, there are plenty of things that "tribal" medicine such as acupuncture, can help that western medicine does not even yet understand.

Quote: You can easily learn to make chemical weapons and nuclear power plants. All you need to do is study, and for the latter find a source of uranium. Tell that to Iran. No amount of study will help you, if the answers you are looking for are not publicly published.

Quote: Yes, science works if that particular goal is sought. What about other goals?

World peace and all that? Doesn't seem that science has helped much with that. In fact you could say it hinders that goal more than it helps it. Every art has to work in the confines of it's elements and rules.

Quote: I wouldn't disagree with that notion either. As I stated before, we humans have developed a number of methods to uncover meaning, understanding and knowledge of the world we live in. The arts, the sciences, philosophy and theology (to a lesser extent ) all have strengths and weaknesses. The key is to find the right balance. True. No one art is completely superior to all others. When you want to understand the "physical" world, science is good...but what we can experience with our 5 senses is less than 1/1,000,000 of reality.

Quote: Funny how the works of human hands always go wrong, especially when misguided religious people take the approach that the "Lord helps those who help themselves". The medieval Church thought the works of their hands would save humanity, look at how that turned out, for an example. This is a good point. The goal of many in the occult, including cabala, is to use the power of humanity to destroy these ancient evils or to make them weaker by stealing their power...but many people have unintended side effects...more than one priest has killed himself after certain rituals.

Quote: Science is trying to explain things that we don't understand. Religion does the same. Yes, and they both have very specific methodologies that can help or hinder the reliability of the results.

Quote: There is only one Light and it won't come to you by experimentation or ritual. Check the highest sephiroth of cabala, and the 1st (last) Aethyr.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: Check the highest sephiroth of cabala, and the 1st (last) Aethyr.

Negative. Kabbala is "uncovering the nakedness of your Father", if you understand what that means.

That is not the Light.