Political Crossfire Forums

[John]

Quote: There is no "high score." Life is about learning from one another and teaching others through our actions. The lessons we learn are carried over in to the next life, so that you can learn new lessons.

What's the point in that?


Quote: Eternity is not based on the actions of one single trip down here. Eternity comes once you have learned as much as you can and taught as much as you can.

Eternity sounds pretty boring. Nothing to learn and nothing to teach....sounds like a whole lot of nothing.

I plan on spending eternity learning & experiencing news things with my Lord.

[Enoch]

John wrote: Quote: There is no "high score." Life is about learning from one another and teaching others through our actions. The lessons we learn are carried over in to the next life, so that you can learn new lessons.

What's the point in that?


Quote: Eternity is not based on the actions of one single trip down here. Eternity comes once you have learned as much as you can and taught as much as you can.

Eternity sounds pretty boring. Nothing to learn and nothing to teach....sounds like a whole lot of nothing.

I plan on spending eternity learning & experiencing news things with my Lord.

Once again, I will point out that you are in a Pagan forum. Is there really a point in coming in here just to tell us we are wrong in what we believe? If you are not here to discuss beliefs with an open mind, then you may be in the wrong place.

[John]

UrielsFyre wrote: John wrote: Quote: There is no "high score." Life is about learning from one another and teaching others through our actions. The lessons we learn are carried over in to the next life, so that you can learn new lessons.

What's the point in that?


Quote: Eternity is not based on the actions of one single trip down here. Eternity comes once you have learned as much as you can and taught as much as you can.

Eternity sounds pretty boring. Nothing to learn and nothing to teach....sounds like a whole lot of nothing.

I plan on spending eternity learning & experiencing news things with my Lord.

Once again, I will point out that you are in a Pagan forum. Is there really a point in coming in here just to tell us we are wrong in what we believe? If you are not here to discuss beliefs with an open mind, then you may be in the wrong place.

Just pointing out the flaws to this logic. Do you have an answer?


If Eternity comes once you have learned as much as you can and taught as much as you can...then Eternity will never come. Considering the vastness of space and all there is to learn and teach about. All life would cease to exist before this goal could ever be reached.

[Enoch]

John wrote: UrielsFyre wrote: John wrote: Quote: There is no "high score." Life is about learning from one another and teaching others through our actions. The lessons we learn are carried over in to the next life, so that you can learn new lessons.

What's the point in that?


Quote: Eternity is not based on the actions of one single trip down here. Eternity comes once you have learned as much as you can and taught as much as you can.

Eternity sounds pretty boring. Nothing to learn and nothing to teach....sounds like a whole lot of nothing.

I plan on spending eternity learning & experiencing news things with my Lord.

Once again, I will point out that you are in a Pagan forum. Is there really a point in coming in here just to tell us we are wrong in what we believe? If you are not here to discuss beliefs with an open mind, then you may be in the wrong place.

Just pointing out the flaws to this logic. Do you have an answer?


If Eternity comes once you have learned as much as you can and taught as much as you can...then Eternity will never come. Considering the vastness of space and all there is to learn and teach about. All life would cease to exist before this goal could ever be reached.

When taken literally, you could draw that conclusion. However, learning and teaching is about lessons in life and humanity. It is not about learning every mathematical formula, every language, or the name of every star in the sky.

It is learning about humanity, our relationships to each other, and how to lead a good life. It is learning fear and bravery, pride and humility, and all the qualities that make us human. It is learning our place in the universe.

For some, those lessons come others than to others. We are here to learn those lessons and teach them to others.



And, please, even though you may not agree with our religious stances on issue, please show some respect and avoid being antagonistic by "pointing out flaws." If you wish to discuss issue with an open mind, then please do so. If you disagree, then feel free to state so. However, if for no other reason that respect, please avoid flat out saying that we are wrong. I don't see the Pagans doing that to you in the Christianity forum. We know that that forum is a place for you to discuss your beliefs, and we accept that. Please return the favor.

[John]

Quote: I don't see the Pagans doing that to you in the Christianity forum. We know that that forum is a place for you to discuss your beliefs, and we accept that. Please return the favor.

This is a place to debate your beliefs. I personally desagree with yours, as you do with mine.


Please come on over to the Christianity section point out any thing you wish. I don't have anything to hide.

Quote: It is learning about humanity, our relationships to each other, and how to lead a good life. It is learning fear and bravery, pride and humility, and all the qualities that make us human. It is learning our place in the universe.

For some, those lessons come others than to others. We are here to learn those lessons and teach them to others.


What's the point of learning to be the perfect human...so you can then cease to be human?

[DarkMerlin]

wormwood wrote: It is hard to make a final judgment call on reincarnation, but I lean toward the possibility. The reason I believe this is because of physics. Your thoughts, feelings, and "personality" are electrical impulses firing back and forth across synapses. In essence "you" are energy. Energy can not be created or destroyed, it can only change forms. 8:)

I dunno, I've always found that argument rather facetious. See, your thoughts, feelings, "personality," etc. are not electrical impulses, but rather patterns of electro-chemical activity in your brain. Unlike energy, patterns and information are not limited by conservation of energy. Really, I hear this argument alot, but in many ways I feel it is based on a faulty understanding of the science behind the brain.

[Enoch]

John wrote: Quote: I don't see the Pagans doing that to you in the Christianity forum. We know that that forum is a place for you to discuss your beliefs, and we accept that. Please return the favor.

This is a place to debate your beliefs. I personally desagree with yours, as you do with mine.


Please come on over to the Christianity section point out any thing you wish. I don't have anything to hide.

Quote: It is learning about humanity, our relationships to each other, and how to lead a good life. It is learning fear and bravery, pride and humility, and all the qualities that make us human. It is learning our place in the universe.

For some, those lessons come others than to others. We are here to learn those lessons and teach them to others.


What's the point of learning to be the perfect human...so you can then cease to be human?

At the point in which you learn the various facets of what makes us human, you have ended your journey and will return, for eternity, to the All (or God to use your terminology).

[wormwood]

Quote: I dunno, I've always found that argument rather facetious. See, your thoughts, feelings, "personality," etc. are not electrical impulses, but rather patterns of electro-chemical activity in your brain. Unlike energy, patterns and information are not limited by conservation of energy. Really, I hear this argument alot, but in many ways I feel it is based on a faulty understanding of the science behind the brain. :lol: Most of the "science" of the brain is speculation, but that is beside the point. The "patterns" you speak of are merely parameters for the energy in question, and not definitions of said energy. What I mean is, just because there are chemical responses(released by electrical responses) tied into personality, does not mean that the energy is to be dictated by these chemicals. Your persona is not made up of chemical release (which I have already stated is electrical in origin anyway), but rather impeded by it to some extent. I have still yet to see conclusive evidence that thoughts originate in the brain. If you think that the organ of the brain, or the chemicals associated with it, define human personality then you should do serious research into a condition know as "hydrocephalus". Some of the patients are missing more than half of their brain before the first symptom!

[wormwood]

Quote: If Eternity comes once you have learned as much as you can and taught as much as you can...then Eternity will never come. Considering the vastness of space and all there is to learn and teach about. All life would cease to exist before this goal could ever be reached. "Eternity" can never "come" because there is no set "eternity"...it literally means forever. Also, the statement was, when you learn as much as you can, not everything there is to know; somethings can not be known by living humans. You approach the statement with skepticism, so to you it makes no sense, but if you approached it with the same degree of rationalizing you do your own religion, you might find that it all indeed makes sense.

Quote: What's the point of learning to be the perfect human...so you can then cease to be human? Who says being a human is so great? Maybe there are a billion better options that you are unaware of.

[F'losrix]

John wrote: wormwood wrote: Quote: The "All" what? Sounds pointless. Returning to the "all" would mean to lose individual identity.

Which would invalidate to whole purpose of living all the lives Well this is obviously John's first life 8:)

Losing your identity is the goal, and not invalidating. You only want to keep your identity out of fear. The idea of losing "yourself" to become part of the greater whole, is not a pleasant thought for you because you feel connected to your "self" as you know it. Did you ever think, maybe being a part of the whole is infinitely better than being completely disconnected and individuated from God?

Not hardly.

It's about love and relationship. In order for relationship and love between God and us to be possible. There had to be a separation so to speak... A time of existence where we had to believe in Him through Faith. If this wasn't so...we would have always been saturated in God's love, not ever being able to develop any sense of self...therefore no relationship or love with God would be possible in our existence.

The whole “melt into the nirvana of nothingness” is the opposite of the truth. IMPO
And, true to my word, I am now ignoring John.

[DarkMerlin]

wormwood wrote: Quote: I dunno, I've always found that argument rather facetious. See, your thoughts, feelings, "personality," etc. are not electrical impulses, but rather patterns of electro-chemical activity in your brain. Unlike energy, patterns and information are not limited by conservation of energy. Really, I hear this argument alot, but in many ways I feel it is based on a faulty understanding of the science behind the brain. :lol: Most of the "science" of the brain is speculation, but that is beside the point. The "patterns" you speak of are merely parameters for the energy in question, and not definitions of said energy. What I mean is, just because there are chemical responses(released by electrical responses) tied into personality, does not mean that the energy is to be dictated by these chemicals. Your persona is not made up of chemical release (which I have already stated is electrical in origin anyway), but rather impeded by it to some extent. I have still yet to see conclusive evidence that thoughts originate in the brain. If you think that the organ of the brain, or the chemicals associated with it, define human personality then you should do serious research into a condition know as "hydrocephalus". Some of the patients are missing more than half of their brain before the first symptom!

Firstly, when I said "electro-chemical," I was not referring to hormones and chemical responses, but rather to the way information is transfered throughout the nervous system by a combination of electical and chemical means. This is basic neurobiology, and, to be honest, I'm not inclined to give the rest of your post much credence.

Don't get me wrong: I do not dismiss the idea that consciousness might have a non-material origin, or might survive in some form beyond death. Still, I find the justification of "energy cannot be created or destory" rather dubious, since it implies a kind of vitalism, in that living things (or human things, if we are to be chauvinistic like that) have a definite energy that non-living things (or non-human things) do not (unless one endorses panpsychism).

Anyways, it is my suspicion that thoughts do not "originate" in the brain, but rather in patterns of information flow found in the electro-chemical firings of our nervous system.

[wormwood]

Quote: Firstly, when I said "electro-chemical," I was not referring to hormones and chemical responses, but rather to the way information is transfered throughout the nervous system by a combination of electical and chemical means. This is basic neurobiology, and, to be honest, I'm not inclined to give the rest of your post much credence. Do you know what you meant when you said a combination of electrical and chemical means? Glutamate is the major excitatory neurotransmitter in central nervous system, and where does it originate?An electrical impulse in one cell causes an influx of calcium ions and the subsequent release of a chemical neurotransmitter (e.g. glutamate). If you were referring to metabotropic G protiens, the "G" stands for glutamate and they are mostly only for potentiation of the synapse. Maybe you should skip the "basic" neurobiology and just take neurophysiology like I did 8:)


Quote: Don't get me wrong: I do not dismiss the idea that consciousness might have a non-material origin, or might survive in some form beyond death. Still, I find the justification of "energy cannot be created or destory" rather dubious, since it implies a kind of vitalism, in that living things (or human things, if we are to be chauvinistic like that) have a definite energy that non-living things (or non-human things) do not (unless one endorses panpsychism). Well it is a law of physics.
Plus, on an unrelated topic, what about the 21 grams people lose at the moment of death? SOMETHING is leaving the body.
Also, the shell (your corpse) could (should) become food for some other creature, your ATP becomes it's ATP so to speak. Your bodies potential energy becomes the kinetic energy for some other creature, and the creature that eats that creature and so on. So in that sense your energy COULD live on as long as there is life on earth.

Quote: Anyways, it is my suspicion that thoughts do not "originate" in the brain, but rather in patterns of information flow found in the electro-chemical firings of our nervous system. I was leaning toward the spine, but a professor and a friend of mine believe that the soul, or your consciousness reside in every cell of your body or outside of the body respectively. Sounds like the brain is getting less popular 8:)

[DarkMerlin]

wormwood wrote: Quote: Firstly, when I said "electro-chemical," I was not referring to hormones and chemical responses, but rather to the way information is transfered throughout the nervous system by a combination of electical and chemical means. This is basic neurobiology, and, to be honest, I'm not inclined to give the rest of your post much credence. Do you know what you meant when you said a combination of electrical and chemical means? Glutamate is the major excitatory neurotransmitter in central nervous system, and where does it originate?An electrical impulse in one cell causes an influx of calcium ions and the subsequent release of a chemical neurotransmitter (e.g. glutamate). If you were referring to metabotropic G protiens, the "G" stands for glutamate and they are mostly only for potentiation of the synapse. Maybe you should skip the "basic"
neurobiology and just take neurophysiology like I did 8:)

Well, of course electrical impulses control the firing of neurotransmitter impulses (and, to some extent, vice versa). What I mean is that information and information patterns are formed through a combination of both kinds of both electrical and chemical activity---hence, electrochemical.

Quote: Quote: Don't get me wrong: I do not dismiss the idea that consciousness might have a non-material origin, or might survive in some form beyond death. Still, I find the justification of "energy cannot be created or destory" rather dubious, since it implies a kind of vitalism, in that living things (or human things, if we are to be chauvinistic like that) have a definite energy that non-living things (or non-human things) do not (unless one endorses panpsychism). Well it is a law of physics.
Plus, on an unrelated topic, what about the 21 grams people lose at the moment of death? SOMETHING is leaving the body.
Also, the shell (your corpse) could (should) become food for some other creature, your ATP becomes it's ATP so to speak. Your bodies potential energy becomes the kinetic energy for some other creature, and the creature that eats that creature and so on. So in that sense your energy COULD live on as long as there is life on earth.

Yes, conservation of energy is a law of physics, but what I dispute is that the "energy" of the nervous system is somehow transfered to another form as consciousness. Energy is not lost: it remains in chemical bonds (such as in ATP, as you said), heat, etc. What is lost is the information patterns formed by the energetic activity of the nervous system. Information is not energy and is not bound by the principles of conservation of energy (well, in some ways it is linked to it, in that destorying information increases energy and so forth, but in this case I refer to the simple "energy can be neither created nor destroyed" bit).

The bit about the 21 grams has little or not scientific basis. The concept or 21 grams being the "weight of the soul" comes from the work of one Dr. Duncan MacDougall, who, in the early 1900s, attempted to measure the change in mass of a person dying. His results varied considerably from 21 grams, and his work is widely considered to lack scientific merit. Remember, just because you saw it in a movie, doesn't make it true.

As for energy in ATP and such being reused by other organisms...well, that's all well and good, but last time I checked there was no reason to think that ATP was the substance that holds consciousness. You may be reincarnated in a metaphorical sense, certainly, but your ego/self actually surviving in the form of the creatures to consume you...iffy.

Quote: Quote: Anyways, it is my suspicion that thoughts do not "originate" in the brain, but rather in patterns of information flow found in the electro-chemical firings of our nervous system. I was leaning toward the spine, but a professor and a friend of mine believe that the soul, or your consciousness reside in every cell of your body or outside of the body respectively. Sounds like the brain is getting less popular 8:)

Well, by nervous system I mean to include the brain. I really don't think that the brain is at all losing its position as the organ most correlated with the mind. My point was that I suspect the mind does not exist "in" the matter of the brain, but rather "in" the information patterns formed by its activity.

[wormwood]

Quote: What I mean is that information and information patterns are formed through a combination of both kinds of both electrical and chemical activity---hence, electrochemical. I disagree. I think that the chemical aspect only influences the the interpretation of the information, which is itself energetic. In other words, the chemical aspect seems only to serve as a catalyst for the electric transfer of information. It is an ingenious system really, constantly converting and reverting energy so that the body has almost no electrical charge.

Quote: Yes, conservation of energy is a law of physics, but what I dispute is that the "energy" of the nervous system is somehow transfered to another form as consciousness. Well this fact is debatable. Using science as my method of inference, I can only say that the "energy" of your consciousness should live on, and COULD possibly come to reside in a new body; whether or not you retain memories or a sense of self is not for me to say.

Quote: Energy is not lost: it remains in chemical bonds (such as in ATP, as you said), heat, etc. Some does yes, but what of the energy that was already converted into your consciousness?

Quote: What is lost is the information patterns formed by the energetic activity of the nervous system. Information is not energy and is not bound by the principles of conservation of energy Information exists on neuropathways, therefore at LEAST at times information is energy. Also, a person is not defined by their accumulation of facts, but their reactions to certain situations; the essence of "you" could survive even if your specific memories did not.

Quote: The bit about the 21 grams has little or not scientific basis. The concept or 21 grams being the "weight of the soul" comes from the work of one Dr. Duncan MacDougall, who, in the early 1900s, attempted to measure the change in mass of a person dying. His results varied considerably from 21 grams, and his work is widely considered to lack scientific merit. Remember, just because you saw it in a movie, doesn't make it true. What movie? I was basing that statement on something I read, although the source is admittedly shakey and vague. Was the movie about the Dr. MacDougall or just based on that premise?

Quote: As for energy in ATP and such being reused by other organisms...well, that's all well and good, but last time I checked there was no reason to think that ATP was the substance that holds consciousness. That is what I was trying to explain on the neurotransmitters!!

Quote: You may be reincarnated in a metaphorical sense, certainly, but your ego/self actually surviving in the form of the creatures to consume you...iffy. There are two points of interest here. One: losing the ego/self is the whole point for people who believe in reincarnation Two: Even if your "soul" doesn't live on, this is a testament to meditation. People with no concept of "the laws of physics" or atoms or any of the modern "science" we take for granted, through meditation, discovered that some part of them had lived before. This is basically tapping into cellular memory using nothing but the human mind. Even if the spiritual reincarnation is fake, in a metaphysical sense they were correct.

Quote: My point was that I suspect the mind does not exist "in" the matter of the brain, but rather "in" the information patterns formed by its activity. Exactly, we just differ on what constitutes this activity, and more specifically where the consciousness resides.

[wormwood]

One more aside Merlin:

to "spontaneously" generate life in a lab, all you have to do is add an electrical charge to certain proteins and you have created single cell organisms. Without the charge, the protein is inanimate.

[John]

UrielsFyre wrote: John wrote: Quote: I don't see the Pagans doing that to you in the Christianity forum. We know that that forum is a place for you to discuss your beliefs, and we accept that. Please return the favor.

This is a place to debate your beliefs. I personally desagree with yours, as you do with mine.


Please come on over to the Christianity section point out any thing you wish. I don't have anything to hide.

Quote: It is learning about humanity, our relationships to each other, and how to lead a good life. It is learning fear and bravery, pride and humility, and all the qualities that make us human. It is learning our place in the universe.

For some, those lessons come others than to others. We are here to learn those lessons and teach them to others.


What's the point of learning to be the perfect human...so you can then cease to be human?

At the point in which you learn the various facets of what makes us human, you have ended your journey and will return, for eternity, to the All (or God to use your terminology).

Then why hasn't humanity improved? We're just as evil and selfish as ever. Shouldn't all of these learning experiences have had an effect by now?

[cap'n queasy]

I find it interesting that many profess belief in "re-incarnation", which is basically a form of eternal life, yet people who believe in this type of eternal life consider it a bad thing and consider the end of individuality (death) as a good thing.

Isn't re-incarnation really a nice candy coating for death worship? It sure seems that way to me.

[F'losrix]

cap'n queasy wrote: I find it interesting that many profess belief in "re-incarnation", which is basically a form of eternal life, yet people who believe in this type of eternal life consider it a bad thing and consider the end of individuality (death) as a good thing.

Isn't re-incarnation really a nice candy coating for death worship? It sure seems that way to me.
More insults based on the incompatiblity of our beliefs with your single-minded Christian perspective.

I'm putting you on ignore, too, and I recommend that others do the same.

[thorn]

cap'n queasy wrote: I find it interesting that many profess belief in "re-incarnation", which is basically a form of eternal life, yet people who believe in this type of eternal life consider it a bad thing and consider the end of individuality (death) as a good thing.

Isn't re-incarnation really a nice candy coating for death worship? It sure seems that way to me.

You could also say that any type of religion or belief trying to construct some kind of afterlife, be it heaven, hell, sitting by the side of my highest deity or reincarnation, trying to separate body/matter and soul/energy, tries to give people hope and strength to face the inevitability and nothingness of/after death. Is it your judgment to make if they are right or wrong? Isn't every human being entitled to believe what he wants? Then what is your business here?

Believing in reincarnation is IMHO a celebration of individualism, because you are to be reincarnated as an individual being. Only if reincarnation stops after having lived several lives as an individual you will return to the all-surrounding, or the god/goddess. How that could be different from the return to the "all-surrounding love" of a mono-theistic paradise after a single life I don't really see.

I am not sure about either form of an afterlife, but I will not judge. I will only read/listen and try to understand, maybe ask a question if there is one.

[Enoch]

John wrote: UrielsFyre wrote: John wrote: Quote: I don't see the Pagans doing that to you in the Christianity forum. We know that that forum is a place for you to discuss your beliefs, and we accept that. Please return the favor.

This is a place to debate your beliefs. I personally desagree with yours, as you do with mine.


Please come on over to the Christianity section point out any thing you wish. I don't have anything to hide.

Quote: It is learning about humanity, our relationships to each other, and how to lead a good life. It is learning fear and bravery, pride and humility, and all the qualities that make us human. It is learning our place in the universe.

For some, those lessons come others than to others. We are here to learn those lessons and teach them to others.


What's the point of learning to be the perfect human...so you can then cease to be human?

At the point in which you learn the various facets of what makes us human, you have ended your journey and will return, for eternity, to the All (or God to use your terminology).

Then why hasn't humanity improved? We're just as evil and selfish as ever. Shouldn't all of these learning experiences have had an effect by now?

This is a bit philisophical, but how do you know we haven't improved over where we would have been without the teachings and lessons of others?