Political Crossfire Forums

[Sailor Moon]

the_doctor wrote: Sailor Moon wrote:

1- no, if theyre old enough to procreate, then they can just as easily partake in childbirth. Plus, at this young age, theyre in better condition to anyways.
Killing is not a choice.
2- Sure its discrimination. What do you think? Dissolving the evidence will empower her somehow?
3- She sure does come first- but only when she cant make any choice herself. She darn well better be dying to have to have her life saved, rather than some speculative notion or misdiagnosis...
4- False. It is murder. It kills, and killing is murdering.
5- You say financial circumstances matter if shes pregnant, but not if circumstances cause her to be poor with a 5 year old. Why the hypocracy?
6- No- divorce is ending a marriage. Theres no need to end a life as well, just to have something to blame it on later.


All of these reasons you cite are nothing more than ridiculous excuses to be used in the future for killing your offspring, to help deny onesself the guilt and grief involved, afterwards. Why do you even make excuses? If you really thought it was a fundamental right, then you wouldnt need to do this. The purpose of citing "reasons" ties well into the term "justifiable homicide", but unfortunately, the only justifiable homicide that exists is when you kill to defend yourself from a life threatening situation, or someone else from a life threatening situation.

I think its a matter of choice and the ethic behind this this is cited here.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/ethics/abortion/femsm_safety.shtml

http://www.womenshealthlondon.org.uk/leaflets/pregab/pregab.html

Women would contine to have abortions if it was criminalised and back to the bad old days of back street abortions. I think you are blurring the line between killing a born child and a fetus that isn't sentient as well as blurring the line between what is murder and an abortion.

To answer your points raised

1. No, a minor may well be able to give birth but is that the best thing long term also the right to choose would rest with the minor in question.
2. Thats not the point, to some seeing a child of someone who raped you may well be a permanent physical reminder.
3. Nope, sometimes she has to make the choice, usually on the advice of a doctor.
4. Again its not murder, how can it be when its legal to
5. Unfortunately, in such a capitalist society financial circumstances to matter - wish they didn't.
6. Not necessarily. It would depend on what stage the woman in question was pregnant and it depends on the nature of the break up.

In regards to that article about teenage pregnancies going on the up, I was merely using it as an indicator for the fact that teenage pregnancies are going up and yes it is in London. But indicative of other places in general.

Abstinence doesn't work, its not natural.

1- Actually the right to choose to have surgery is not exclusively a minors right. Her parents hold the burden on responsibility if she got hurt, so her parents should decide for her. Obviously, if she thinks shes old enough to partake in the process of baby-making, then if she makes a baby, she should really feel all grown up... some young girls .. no- MOST young girls who have sex are searching for love and attention, and even hope. Dont you watch Maury?

2- So basically, if you do away with the physical evidence, rather than putting the child up for adoption, then the whole eisode will dissappear? I am sorry, but to be raped, AND have to deal with having had an abortion, is just doubling the trauma, and creating even more mental disorder than is needed. At least if the child is birthed, there is never a worry about the childs best interests not being treated with respect, and therefore, much less guilt involved.

3- If she has to make the choice, then her life is in no immediate danger, and the abortion is elective.

4- Just because its legal doesnt mean its not murder. Like- Selling people or forcing people to work for no money is slavery, no matter what you call it.

5- Financial Circumstances do not matter at all. Thats just ridiculous. You know, a woman who is pregnant can go to school for free, live for free, and have free food and health care, and even extra money. She could even work part time, and still come out better than some women who are single parents who have degrees.

6- Why does the break up affect the pregnancy? This is ludicris! So the woman is sad and grieving for her husband.. Should she also be encouraged to grieve for the loss of a child, as well? Thats what #6 implies!

[the_doctor]

Sailor Moon wrote:

1- Actually the right to choose to ing for love and attention, and even hope. Dont you watch Maury?

2- So basically, if you do away with the physical evidence, rather than putting the child up for adoption, then the whole eisode will dissappear? I am sorry, but to be raped, AND have to deal with having had an abortion, is just doubling the trauma, and creating even more mental disorder than is needed. At least if the child is birthed, there is never a worry about the childs best interests not being treated with respect, and therefore, much less guilt involved.

3- If she has to make the choice, then her life is in no immediate danger, and the abortion is elective.

4- Just because its legal doesnt mean its not murder. Like- Selling people or forcing people to work for no money is slavery, no matter what you call it.

5- Financial Circumstances do not matter at all. Thats just ridiculous. You know, a woman who is pregnant can go to school for free, live for free, and have free food and health care, and even extra money. She could even work part time, and still come out better than some women who are single parents who have degrees.

6- Why does the break up affect the pregnancy? This is ludicris! So the woman is sad and grieving for her husband.. Should she also be encouraged to grieve for the loss of a child, as well? Thats what #6 implies!

Lets see..

1. I don't watch Maury - what is it? I live in Sydney, Australia and of British background and don't recall it been on TV. As for the reasons why teenage have surgery is not exclusively a minors right. Her parents hold the burden on responsibility if she got hurt, so her parents should decide for her. Obviously, if she thinks shes old enough to partake in the process of baby-making, then if she makes a baby, she should really feel all grown up... some young girls .. no- MOST young girls who have sex are searchgirls get pregnant, well that one of them. I think the love and attention is something that carries on throughout ones life. However at that age one's feelings are in overdrive so its easy to make rash mistakes. Therefore should they have to pay for it for the rest of their lives?

2. I meant to say the last time, as well as DNA there is forensic evidence e.g. microfibres, etc...

3. Not necessarily, how about if she was terminally ill and childbirth may kill her or here's another one HIV+, in some cases the baby is born HIV-. However would it be fair to risk that? As if the baby was born HIV+? Well that doesn't bear thinking about despite retroviral drugs.

4. I responded to Mycroft regarding the issue of whether its murder or not and here is something defining the two. http://www.abortionisprolife.com/faq.htm

5. No this is a very valid reason as previously stated as welfare benefits are subsistance level and non existant in some parts of the world.

6. Reasons why marriages/relationships breakup are numerous. how about this, the husband is violent and so she gets away from him and starts divorce proceedings but finds she is 6-8 weeks pregnant. Does she want him to have a hold on her? Granted there are legal restraining orders, etc... but will this have any effect if the said husband is a bit of a psychopath.

[Mycroft147]

Dezz wrote: Mycroft147 wrote: the_doctor wrote: Quote:
Im not missing the point. I know its up to the woman, and im saying it shouldnt be because then she is allowed power over somoen elses life. For Catholics the solution is not contraception, but that would be a better option than abortion. You are arguing as if you dont realize that i think abortion should be illegal. Give me some reasons why it should be legal, not just statements about the laws.

For Catholics, well that is a problem and something they need to think hard and long about.

Reasons for abortion been legal. Ok how about this for starters...

1. Age e.g. Teenage pregnancy as in under 16 or 18
2. Rape
3. Medical reason, either the mother will die during child birth or the baby will shortly after birth.
4. Psychological fear of pregnancy.
5. Financial circumstances.
6. Divorce

And heres the reasons why your arguments are worthless:
1. Age of parent has nothing to do with whether or not the baby has a right to life.
2.You are saying that a baby concieved by rape has less rights than one concieved consensually. This is discrimination.
3.You are giving the woman more right to life than baby. Discrimination. If the woman dies it is sad but natural. The other choice is murder.
4.Fear of pregnancy does not justify murder.
5.Financial problems still do not justify murder. If you are poor and have a 5 year old kid who you cant support, you dont kill him, do you? also there is adoption.
and 6. Divorce still doesnt justify murder. Half your reasons would be considered ridiculuous by any pro-choicer. 1 – I agree age has little relevance outside the extreme
2 – You are arguing that it is ok to force women to have children. I assume you think the rape is wrong…. but forcing them to have children even though they didn’t consent to sex…fine by you. Don’t worry about what they may be doing in life or how a pregnancy may affect their lives.
3 – You are arguing that it’s ok to force someone to give up their life for another. Do you think old people should be slaughtered if a younger person needs their heart to survive? How about being forced to donate marrow to cancer patients? You have two kidneys right? You only need one…. I don’t care if you don’t want to. Sorry but you can’t force people to die because you think it’s right.
4 – Fear is not a good reason, and IMO not a valid reason.
5 – I agree there are options including adoption.
6 – I agree divorce is not a valid reason IMO

2- thats not what i said. rape is wrong, forcing women to have sex is wrong. but once their is another human involved, the embryo, you cant just ignore their rights.saying the embryo concieved in rape should have less rights than one concieved otherwise is discriminatory.
3-This is also a misperception on your part. In the case of abortion the option is murder through abortion, or natural death by the woman. In your cases it is natural death by the young or murder to the old. you twisted your scenario backwards. it has no relevance.

we agree on 1,4,5,6. Looks like you need to rethink your arguments.

[Mycroft147]

the_doctor wrote: Mycroft147 wrote:

so doctor, your whole argument basically comes form the point that its not murder. focus on that, tell me why its not murder. you havent given any reasons or facts or jusification. Why isnt killing something of the species homo sapiens murder?

You dont get it, the right to life is more important than any other. You are justifying the violation of that right by saying the mother comes first, which isnt true. When two lives are in danger and the choice is let one die or murder one, the obvious choice is to let the one die. Nothing justifies murder.

First of all I thought I'd consolidate your two posts into one.

Why is abortion not murder? Hmm. Well to for starts here is something you ought to look at, you too Sailor Moon. This will provide the answers to both your questions.

http://www.abortionisprolife.com/faq.htm

As for letting the mother die for sake of an unborn fetus, I think you are completely wrong and that would be might constitute manslaughter to let the mother die for the sake of carrying the fetus. :-|

Yeah i looked at the site, turns out they say its not murder becuas ethe fetus is not a human, only a potential one. But they fail to state the minor fact of when a fetus actually DOES become human. The only logical conclusion remains that it is a human from conception, a living being of the species homo sapiens with its own distinct
DNA, different from the mother and all her organs. It is not part of the mother.
And by the way manslaughter is accidental killing, which the baby would have no control over and therefore couldnt be considered guilty of. The alternative is actual murder, the intentional killing of a human being. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

[Mycroft147]

And by the way doctor your quote

"Abstinence doesn't work, its not natural."

is funny because you actually would think not having sex is less natural than killing a baby inside its mother.

[SpellJammer]

the_doctor wrote: 3. Not necessarily, how about if she was terminally ill and childbirth may kill her or here's another one HIV+, in some cases the baby is born HIV-. However would it be fair to risk that? As if the baby was born HIV+? Well that doesn't bear thinking about despite retroviral drugs.
How dare you ever call anybody else extreme? You liberals fall back on the same pitiful arguments, if their life is endanger then sure, they can have an abortion. There's exseptions to everything, but why should it be FULLY legal? Why does it have to be either or? SpellJammer thought only conservatives think in absolutes?

Quote: 5. No this is a very valid reason as previously stated as welfare benefits are subsistance level and non existant in some parts of the world.
This is about America, not the world. Stop trying to make an American issue into a global one..

Quote: 6. Reasons why marriages/relationships breakup are numerous. how about this, the husband is violent and so she gets away from him and starts divorce proceedings but finds she is 6-8 weeks pregnant. Does she want him to have a hold on her? Granted there are legal restraining orders, etc... but will this have any effect if the said husband is a bit of a psychopath.
You know what s*cks about hypothetical situations? They're hypothetical, they don't apply to real-life. Stop living in a fantasy world and start facing reality.. Abortion is murder, there's no real justification for it, and the only reason it's legal is because it puts more money in evil capitalist's pockets..

[Mycroft147]

stop wasting space all you pro-abortionists. Stick to the main issue and the main point behind all your ramblings, you think that abortion isnt murder. Give one sound reason why it is not murder. Most sane and logical people already agree that the right to life is the most basic and important right, so forget about all the other crap that hides the issue. How is abortion not murder?

[Sailor Moon]

the_doctor wrote: Sailor Moon wrote:

1- Actually the right to choose to ing for love and attention, and even hope. Dont you watch Maury?

2- So basically, if you do away with the physical evidence, rather than putting the child up for adoption, then the whole eisode will dissappear? I am sorry, but to be raped, AND have to deal with having had an abortion, is just doubling the trauma, and creating even more mental disorder than is needed. At least if the child is birthed, there is never a worry about the childs best interests not being treated with respect, and therefore, much less guilt involved.

3- If she has to make the choice, then her life is in no immediate danger, and the abortion is elective.

4- Just because its legal doesnt mean its not murder. Like- Selling people or forcing people to work for no money is slavery, no matter what you call it.

5- Financial Circumstances do not matter at all. Thats just ridiculous. You know, a woman who is pregnant can go to school for free, live for free, and have free food and health care, and even extra money. She could even work part time, and still come out better than some women who are single parents who have degrees.

6- Why does the break up affect the pregnancy? This is ludicris! So the woman is sad and grieving for her husband.. Should she also be encouraged to grieve for the loss of a child, as well? Thats what #6 implies!

Lets see..

1. I don't watch Maury - what is it? I live in Sydney, Australia and of British background and don't recall it been on TV. As for the reasons why teenage have surgery is not exclusively a minors right. Her parents hold the burden on responsibility if she got hurt, so her parents should decide for her. Obviously, if she thinks shes old enough to partake in the process of baby-making, then if she makes a baby, she should really feel all grown up... some young girls .. no- MOST young girls who have sex are searchgirls get pregnant, well that one of them. I think the love and attention is something that carries on throughout ones life. However at that age one's feelings are in overdrive so its easy to make rash mistakes. Therefore should they have to pay for it for the rest of their lives?

Well, if you think a little girl who birthed a baby is going to act before thinking again, you are very confused about little girls.

Quote: 2. I meant to say the last time, as well as DNA there is forensic evidence e.g. microfibres, etc...

Where at, in the pipes? Lots of women have showers after a rape, you know.. it helps get the ickyness off, and makes them feel "clean".

Quote: 3. Not necessarily, how about if she was terminally ill and childbirth may kill her or here's another one HIV+, in some cases the baby is born HIV-. However would it be fair to risk that? As if the baby was born HIV+? Well that doesn't bear thinking about despite retroviral drugs.

Lots of babies are born HIV positive, but thats just a test. The test only looks for antibodies, which many babies are born with. That doesnt mean they have the virus. In fact, people have tested negative for HIV several times, but unfortunately, there is no testing done for the actual virus itself, therefore once you are HIV+ you are always HIV positive. Its a real problem. Its not fair to kill the baby due to a stipulation that antiviral drugs might not work...Why not kill the person, as well, then?

Quote: 4. I responded to Mycroft regarding the issue of whether its murder or not and here is something defining the two. http://www.abortionisprolife.com/faq.htm

Killing is the same thing as murder. Any semantics games you want to play will not be tolerated by me.

Quote: 5. No this is a very valid reason as previously stated as welfare benefits are subsistance level and non existant in some parts of the world.

Right. If only those parts of the world were more focused on social issues affecting their countries, and spent less time "getting busy", then they might see some progress...

Quote: 6. Reasons why marriages/relationships breakup are numerous. how about this, the husband is violent and so she gets away from him and starts divorce proceedings but finds she is 6-8 weeks pregnant. Does she want him to have a hold on her? Granted there are legal restraining orders, etc... but will this have any effect if the said husband is a bit of a psychopath.

My ex husband and I split up 2 weeks after we wed, and only 4 months into the pregnancy. He was physically abusive.. He would have loved it if I had an abortion. I dont NEED him, though, to give my child love, and I dont worry about him hurting me or my child, all that much... My leaving taught him a real lesson, and he has been much more respectful since.. not perfect, but better...
Hes also BIPOLAR..

So you say I should have killed my little boy, instead of love him?

I would say THAT is psychotic...

[the_doctor]

SpellJammer wrote:
How dare you ever call anybody else extreme? You liberals fall back on the same pitiful arguments, if their life is endanger then sure, they can have an abortion. There's exseptions to everything, but why should it be FULLY legal? Why does it have to be either or? SpellJammer thought only conservatives think in absolutes?

Quote: 5. No this is a very valid reason as previously stated as welfare benefits are subsistance level and non existant in some parts of the world.

This is about America, not the world. Stop trying to make an American issue into a global one..

Quote: 6. Reasons why marriages/relationships breakup are numerous. how about this, the husband is violent and so she gets away from him and starts divorce proceedings but finds she is 6-8 weeks pregnant. Does she want him to have a hold on her? Granted there are legal restraining orders, etc... but will this have any effect if the said husband is a bit of a psychopath.
You know what s*cks about hypothetical situations? They're hypothetical, they don't apply to real-life. Stop living in a fantasy world and start facing reality.. Abortion is murder, there's no real justification for it, and the only reason it's legal is because it puts more money in evil capitalist's pockets..

Point 3. Did I call someone's view extreme? Maybe so but that's my opinion. You classing me as a liberal, I am neither liberal (whatever that means as it can be left or right wing) or conservative. But some things in life are absolutes either yes/no (and no middle ground) and whats wrong with that.

Point 5. Since when? This is a worldwide forum, America isn't the only country in the world and I am not American.

Point 6. Your views are clouded by your own anti-abortion views, thats fair enough but others have a different point of view.

[SpellJammer]

See? You don't make any sense.

#1: SpellJammer never said sometimes you can't have absolutes, there's exseptions to EVERYTHING. But this isn't one of them..

#2: We're talking about America's take on abortion, not the world's. Either you ignored that partof SpellJammer's post or you don't care.

And #3: If everything is just a point of view, then why do you even bother talking? Obviously there's deeper meaning behind it if you continue to persist..

SpellJammer isn't even as pro-life as you might think.. he just knows what he wants..

[the_doctor]

Quote: Sailor Moon wrote:

Lets see..

1. I don't watch Maury - what is it? I live in Sydney, Australia and of British background and don't recall it been on TV. As for the reasons why teenage have surgery is not exclusively a minors right. Her parents hold the burden on responsibility if she got hurt, so her parents should decide for her. Obviously, if she thinks shes old enough to partake in the process of baby-making, then if she makes a baby, she should really feel all grown up... some young girls .. no- MOST young girls who have sex are searchgirls get pregnant, well that one of them. I think the love and attention is something that carries on throughout ones life. However at that age one's feelings are in overdrive so its easy to make rash mistakes. Therefore should they have to pay for it for the rest of their lives?

Well, if you think a little girl who birthed a baby is going to act before thinking again, you are very confused about little girls.

Quote: 2. I meant to say the last time, as well as DNA there is forensic evidence e.g. microfibres, etc...

Where at, in the pipes? Lots of women have showers after a rape, you know.. it helps get the ickyness off, and makes them feel "clean".

Quote: 3. Not necessarily, how about if she was terminally ill and childbirth may kill her or here's another one HIV+, in some cases the baby is born HIV-. However would it be fair to risk that? As if the baby was born HIV+? Well that doesn't bear thinking about despite retroviral drugs.

Lots of babies are born HIV positive, but thats just a test. The test only looks for antibodies, which many babies are born with. That doesnt mean they have the virus. In fact, people have tested negative for HIV several times, but unfortunately, there is no testing done for the actual virus itself, therefore once you are HIV+ you are always HIV positive. Its a real problem. Its not fair to kill the baby due to a stipulation that antiviral drugs might not work...Why not kill the person, as well, then?

Quote: 4. I responded to Mycroft regarding the issue of whether its murder or not and here is something defining the two. http://www.abortionisprolife.com/faq.htm

Killing is the same thing as murder. Any semantics games you want to play will not be tolerated by me.

Quote: 5. No this is a very valid reason as previously stated as welfare benefits are subsistance level and non existant in some parts of the world.

Right. If only those parts of the world were more focused on social issues affecting their countries, and spent less time "getting busy", then they might see some progress...

Quote: 6. Reasons why marriages/relationships breakup are numerous. how about this, the husband is violent and so she gets away from him and starts divorce proceedings but finds she is 6-8 weeks pregnant. Does she want him to have a hold on her? Granted there are legal restraining orders, etc... but will this have any effect if the said husband is a bit of a psychopath.

My ex husband and I split up 2 weeks after we wed, and only 4 months into the pregnancy. He was physically abusive.. He would have loved it if I had an abortion. I dont NEED him, though, to give my child love, and I dont worry about him hurting me or my child, all that much... My leaving taught him a real lesson, and he has been much more respectful since.. not perfect, but better...
Hes also BIPOLAR..

So you say I should have killed my little boy, instead of love him?

I would say THAT is psychotic...


1. I'm a bit lost by your first reply. :?
2. Depends when the woman reports the rape case. But forensic can be so good they can still find traces even after a shower but this does depends and I am not a forensic expert.
3. I think we could argue that one forever. Its a matter of personal choice but I would have thought if the probability is high of the embryo/fetus been infected then its kinder to abort rather than give birth to a child and tell it, it has HIV.
4. Meaning? I am not playing games.
5. I think the solution is promoting contraception rather than using abortion as a means of contraception.
6. I am sorry to learn that and I am glad things worked out for you. However each case is different.

[the_doctor]

SpellJammer wrote: See? You don't make any sense.

#1: SpellJammer never said sometimes you can't have absolutes, there's exseptions to EVERYTHING. But this isn't one of them..

#2: We're talking about America's take on abortion, not the world's. Either you ignored that partof SpellJammer's post or you don't care.

And #3: If everything is just a point of view, then why do you even bother talking? Obviously there's deeper meaning behind it if you continue to persist..

SpellJammer isn't even as pro-life as you might think.. he just knows what he wants..

1. It is, its either murder or it isn't, no middle way.
2. As explained before, worldwide forum, worldwide audience and therefore posters from all over the world. However I'll try my best and restrict it to American terms of reference (no promises). I am sure America's state benefits aren't much better than anyone elses.
3. Debate. Isn't that what this forum is about?

[Mycroft147]

Doctor: stop clouding th issue and forget about the points since theyve lost their original meaning. Abortion Violates the supreme basic human right which is the right to life. If you dont agree then explain why.

[Mycroft147]

the_doctor wrote: SpellJammer wrote: See? You don't make any sense.

#1: SpellJammer never said sometimes you can't have absolutes, there's exseptions to EVERYTHING. But this isn't one of them..

#2: We're talking about America's take on abortion, not the world's. Either you ignored that partof SpellJammer's post or you don't care.

And #3: If everything is just a point of view, then why do you even bother talking? Obviously there's deeper meaning behind it if you continue to persist..

SpellJammer isn't even as pro-life as you might think.. he just knows what he wants..

1. It is, its either murder or it isn't, no middle way.
2. As explained before, worldwide forum, worldwide audience and therefore posters from all over the world. However I'll try my best and restrict it to American terms of reference (no promises). I am sure America's state benefits aren't much better than anyone elses.
3. Debate. Isn't that what this forum is about?


Good points. Abortion is either murder or not. It is also a topic that relates to the whole world and should be illegal everywhere, the human right to life is supreme no matter what country

[Sailor Moon]

the_doctor wrote: Quote:



1.

Well, if you think a little girl who birthed a baby is going to act before thinking again, you are very confused about little girls.


4.

Killing is the same thing as murder. Any semantics games you want to play will not be tolerated by me.





1. I'm a bit lost by your first reply. :?
2. Depends when the woman reports the rape case. But forensic can be so good they can still find traces even after a shower but this does depends and I am not a forensic expert.
3. I think we could argue that one forever. Its a matter of personal choice but I would have thought if the probability is high of the embryo/fetus been infected then its kinder to abort rather than give birth to a child and tell it, it has HIV.
4. Meaning? I am not playing games.
5. I think the solution is promoting contraception rather than using abortion as a means of contraception.
6. I am sorry to learn that and I am glad things worked out for you. However each case is different.

1-Ok.. A girl thats 16 who has a kid (I knew one, pregnant at 15, she wanted to be a grown up) learns a great deal of responsibility through actions. She might give it up for adoption, mother it, or whatever, but she wont learn much from aborting it, besides regretting getting pregnant, and possibly regretting the abortion. My friend had a 2 year old, yet was valedictorian at her school and a local convenience store manager. She also went to college and now lives in a nice home. She got away from her unloving family this way. Her mom definately wanted her to abort- that was made clear when she punched her in the stomach upon finding out her daughter was pregnant. My friend might have miscarried and gotten pregnant again, just for the very basic need to have someone who will accept her love, and maybe love her back in return.. and also as an excuse to leave home and be emancipated. If she had aborted, I can almost guarantee you, she would have ended up trailer trash just like her parents did.

2- Its very difficult to get forensics after a woman has showered. The chances are very slim. Lie I said before, only 1 in 500 rapists ever go to jail. oh maybe its less than that... lets see..

one in 10 rapes get reported.

one in 10 reported rapes have charges pressed

one in 10 rape cases where a warrant is issued, is the person arrested.

one in 10 arrests leads to a trial

one in 10 trials lead to jail.

Seriously. Ask your women friends, all of them, if they were raped, and see how many times each. See how few were even reported. See if even one saw justice served. Most women realise what has happened after showering... we go into a state of shock, emotionally, really- and all we do is try to get clean... I didnt even know, when I was raped, that it was even consdered rape. I couldnt even speak during.. So I didnt say no.. I felt like it must not have been rape, because of that. I actually celebrated losing my virginity until us girls sat around and talked about our first time stories, a couple months later. Well, my first time was my only time, and they said- "You got raped"... Thats when it really set in. I had felt violated, and knew that a violation had take place, but with all the stupid rules about rape, I just didnt realise I had been raped... call it denial, I dunno- So anyways, thats some extra info on rape.
I dont want to talk about it any more.

3- I dont advocate it, though.. but I can see where youre coming from.

4- I just dont like playing semantics games in reference to "abortion is murder" .. abortion kills, and killing is murder.

5- agreed... with a special focus on abstinence, of course.

6. Thank you for being so understanding.

[the_doctor]

Mycroft147 wrote: Doctor: stop clouding th issue and forget about the points since theyve lost their original meaning. Abortion Violates the supreme basic human right which is the right to life. If you dont agree then explain why.

Point taken, things have gone a little astray.

OK I thought I had already answered this with the following link which defines the difference between abortion and murder. But this article sums up why I feel Abortion does not violate the right to life.

http://www.abortionisprolife.com/faq.htm

Also I think each case is different and one size doesn't fit all.

[Mycroft147]

the_doctor wrote: Mycroft147 wrote: Doctor: stop clouding th issue and forget about the points since theyve lost their original meaning. Abortion Violates the supreme basic human right which is the right to life. If you dont agree then explain why.

Point taken, things have gone a little astray.

OK I thought I had already answered this with the following link which defines the difference between abortion and murder. But this article sums up why I feel Abortion does not violate the right to life.

http://www.abortionisprolife.com/faq.htm

Also I think each case is different and one size doesn't fit all.

Ive gone to the site. The info i found that most concerns this topic is:

Is a fetus a human being because it has a complete set of human DNA?
A fetus is human, in the sense that it contains human DNA; however, a fetus, like an embryo, is not a human being, as it has no means of independent physiological existence (as does a baby, child, or adult)

This is basically the argument of viablility. Once you look at it closely you see viability is extremely illogical. It says the embryo or fetus is only a true human once it can survive on its own outside the womb. But the point of viability is not stable and changes with technology. The idea of viability is shown to be illogical because according to viability, what constitutes a true human now would not be a true human in the past when we did not have the current technology. Obviously viability is an unstable and illlogical way to determine whether or not the embryo is a human. The only option that makes sense is that the embryo is a human form conception.

[the_doctor]

Sailor Moon wrote: the_doctor wrote: Quote:



1.

Well, if you think a little girl who birthed a baby is going to act before thinking again, you are very confused about little girls.


4.

Killing is the same thing as murder. Any semantics games you want to play will not be tolerated by me.





1. I'm a bit lost by your first reply. :?
2. Depends when the woman reports the rape case. But forensic can be so good they can still find traces even after a shower but this does depends and I am not a forensic expert.
3. I think we could argue that one forever. Its a matter of personal choice but I would have thought if the probability is high of the embryo/fetus been infected then its kinder to abort rather than give birth to a child and tell it, it has HIV.
4. Meaning? I am not playing games.
5. I think the solution is promoting contraception rather than using abortion as a means of contraception.
6. I am sorry to learn that and I am glad things worked out for you. However each case is different.

1-Ok.. A girl thats 16 who has a kid (I knew one, pregnant at 15, she wanted to be a grown up) learns a great deal of responsibility through actions. She might give it up for adoption, mother it, or whatever, but she wont learn much from aborting it, besides regretting getting pregnant, and possibly regretting the abortion. My friend had a 2 year old, yet was valedictorian at her school and a local convenience store manager. She also went to college and now lives in a nice home. She got away from her unloving family this way. Her mom definately wanted her to abort- that was made clear when she punched her in the stomach upon finding out her daughter was pregnant. My friend might have miscarried and gotten pregnant again, just for the very basic need to have someone who will accept her love, and maybe love her back in return.. and also as an excuse to leave home and be emancipated. If she had aborted, I can almost guarantee you, she would have ended up trailer trash just like her parents did.

2- Its very difficult to get forensics after a woman has showered. The chances are very slim. Lie I said before, only 1 in 500 rapists ever go to jail. oh maybe its less than that... lets see..

one in 10 rapes get reported.

one in 10 reported rapes have charges pressed

one in 10 rape cases where a warrant is issued, is the person arrested.

one in 10 arrests leads to a trial

one in 10 trials lead to jail.

Seriously. Ask your women friends, all of them, if they were raped, and see how many times each. See how few were even reported. See if even one saw justice served. Most women realise what has happened after showering... we go into a state of shock, emotionally, really- and all we do is try to get clean... I didnt even know, when I was raped, that it was even consdered rape. I couldnt even speak during.. So I didnt say no.. I felt like it must not have been rape, because of that. I actually celebrated losing my virginity until us girls sat around and talked about our first time stories, a couple months later. Well, my first time was my only time, and they said- "You got raped"... Thats when it really set in. I had felt violated, and knew that a violation had take place, but with all the stupid rules about rape, I just didnt realise I had been raped... call it denial, I dunno- So anyways, thats some extra info on rape.
I dont want to talk about it any more.

3- I dont advocate it, though.. but I can see where youre coming from.

4- I just dont like playing semantics games in reference to "abortion is murder" .. abortion kills, and killing is murder.

5- agreed... with a special focus on abstinence, of course.

6. Thank you for being so understanding.

Agreed and thank you.

[Sailor Moon]

Yep. The womans body is only the shell. The life inside, is still an individual life. Sure it depends on her for survival, but her autonomy does not go so far as to allow her to peel her shell open simply to dispose of the other individual life. If she gave permission, as the site explains, then once that life is growing inside of her, then that life is as individual as her own. She may do whatever she pleases with her shell, but not to the individual inside of her. Therefore, if she wants to belly flop off the high dive, its autonomous. The fetus has certain risks it must take to survive the pregnancy phase. Opening her up and employing additional tools to destroy the additional life is not a portion of autonomous decision making. Thats dictative, and a form of slavery in its purest.