Political Crossfire Forums

Stygma · Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 10:54 pm Post subject: Re: How about the fathers rights

Mycroft147 wrote: Stygma wrote: the_doctor wrote: Sailor Moon wrote: asadkins wrote: Why should it be legal for a woman to get an abortion and not be required to notify the father. Men have to include their spouse when having a vasectomy. Seems kind of ironic to me.

I agree completely. Fathers should fight for their equal rights. Theyve kinda been shoved into the "mindless, uncaring oafs" category, a treatment they really dont deserve.

No I would disagree on this issue. My thoughts are, the woman in question has to carry it and if she doesn't want to go through with it then she shouldn't have to. Its her body, her choice. Likewise a man can have the snip if he so desires.

Naturally its better to get the support of your partner but if not and its what you want to do then nothing should stop you.

Yeah, but a man is still forced to support the child once it's born. Does that seem fair?

Seems fair to me, its the fathers child, he should be requirewd to support it. He decided to risk having the child.

But the woman had the choice to have an abortion. If she doesn't, it becomes her responsibility (assuming these two people are married, otherwise he's contractually obligated to provide support) It seems the woman has all the choice in this matter, and the guy basically has choice when the woman feels like it (or when it's convenient to her)

the_doctor · Joined: 01 Jan 2006 Posts: 353 Location: Sydney

Stygma wrote: the_doctor wrote: Sailor Moon wrote: asadkins wrote: Why should it be legal for a woman to get an abortion and not be required to notify the father. Men have to include their spouse when having a vasectomy. Seems kind of ironic to me.

I agree completely. Fathers should fight for their equal rights. Theyve kinda been shoved into the "mindless, uncaring oafs" category, a treatment they really dont deserve.

No I would disagree on this issue. My thoughts are, the woman in question has to carry it and if she doesn't want to go through with it then she shouldn't have to. Its her body, her choice. Likewise a man can have the snip if he so desires.

Naturally its better to get the support of your partner but if not and its what you want to do then nothing should stop you.

Yeah, but a man is still forced to support the child once it's born. Does that seem fair?

To be honest, no that it isn't and fathers get a rubbish end of the deal when couples split up and there is still that trend for the ex-wife/girlfriend to get custody, almost by default.

However on the issue of abortion that I feel is another matter entirely and I regard it as cruel to force a woman to undergo a pregnancy term and labour if she doesn't want to.

Mycroft147 · Joined: 20 Feb 2006 Posts: 142 Location: minnesota

If abortion was illegal then we wouldnt have to argue about the fathers rights.

And by the way doctor, the woman doesnt have to have sex. she has a choice to go through all the horrors of pregnancy. If yout htink about it your reasoning is also an argument for infanticide. Wh yshould the parents have to go through all the agonies of raising a child and caring for it? they should just be able to kill it!

Stygma · Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 11:12 pm Post subject:

Mycroft147 wrote: If abortion was illegal then we wouldnt have to argue about the fathers rights.

And if we lived in a fascist state we wouldn't have to talk about rights at all! :roll:

Mycroft147 wrote: And by the way doctor, the woman doesnt have to have sex. she has a choice to go through all the horrors of pregnancy. If yout htink about it your reasoning is also an argument for infanticide. Wh yshould the parents have to go through all the agonies of raising a child and caring for it? they should just be able to kill it!

You're trying to draw a ridiculous conclusion based upon an extension of the reasoning behind his argument, but he ignore the actual reasoning. Abortion is an alternative to more children being born into lives that are terrible, being born into families where they'll be unwanted and unloved. The woman has the choice to not have sex, yes, but as sex is pleasurable and damn fun people will always seek it out, and there needs to be a second option.

the_doctor · Joined: 01 Jan 2006 Posts: 353 Location: Sydney

Mycroft147 wrote: If abortion was illegal then we wouldnt have to argue about the fathers rights.

And by the way doctor, the woman doesnt have to have sex. she has a choice to go through all the horrors of pregnancy. If yout htink about it your reasoning is also an argument for infanticide. Wh yshould the parents have to go through all the agonies of raising a child and caring for it? they should just be able to kill it!

Well, no sane person can go through their lives without having sex and the answer is contraception. But in the absence of the latter or if it fails then the only option is abortion to handle an unwanted pregnancy, provided its in early stages.

I think infanticide is a bit on the extreme side as that would suggest killing already born children. Not unborn ones.

Mycroft147 · Joined: 20 Feb 2006 Posts: 142 Location: minnesota

Stygma wrote: Mycroft147 wrote: If abortion was illegal then we wouldnt have to argue about the fathers rights.

And if we lived in a fascist state we wouldn't have to talk about rights at all! :roll:

Yeah, and the point i was making is that no one is gonna have equal rights when abortion is legal.

Mycroft147 wrote: And by the way doctor, the woman doesnt have to have sex. she has a choice to go through all the horrors of pregnancy. If yout htink about it your reasoning is also an argument for infanticide. Wh yshould the parents have to go through all the agonies of raising a child and caring for it? they should just be able to kill it!

You're trying to draw a ridiculous conclusion based upon an extension of the reasoning behind his argument, but he ignore the actual reasoning. Abortion is an alternative to more children being born into lives that are terrible, being born into families where they'll be unwanted and unloved. The woman has the choice to not have sex, yes, but as sex is pleasurable and damn fun people will always seek it out, and there needs to be a second option.

Yes i am, yes he did.And yes abortion is an alternative, one that infringes on a humans right to life and should not be allowed merely because people will always want to have fun and pleasure without consequences.

Mycroft147 · Joined: 20 Feb 2006 Posts: 142 Location: minnesota

the_doctor wrote: Mycroft147 wrote: If abortion was illegal then we wouldnt have to argue about the fathers rights.

And by the way doctor, the woman doesnt have to have sex. she has a choice to go through all the horrors of pregnancy. If yout htink about it your reasoning is also an argument for infanticide. Wh yshould the parents have to go through all the agonies of raising a child and caring for it? they should just be able to kill it!

Well, no sane person can go through their lives without having sex and the answer is contraception. But in the absence of the latter or if it fails then the only option is abortion to handle an unwanted pregnancy, provided its in early stages.

Strange as it is to you, im pretty sure there have been sane people who went through life without having sex. The answer is not contraceptives, the answer is waiting until you find someone you want to marry and then having children with them. Abortion is also not the only option to an unwanted pregnancy, adoption is there and also having the child. Two ways that dont infringe on anyones right to life.

I think infanticide is a bit on the extreme side as that would suggest killing already born children. Not unborn ones.

Yeah its one the extreme side, and so are you. You are discriminating against unborn children just because, htrough no fault of thier own, they are still in the early stages of life. Why should being born grant anyone the right to life when theyve been alive for 9 months already?>

Stygma · Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 11:32 pm Post subject:

Mycroft147 wrote: Stygma wrote: Mycroft147 wrote: If abortion was illegal then we wouldnt have to argue about the fathers rights.

And if we lived in a fascist state we wouldn't have to talk about rights at all! :roll:

Yeah, and the point i was making is that no one is gonna have equal rights when abortion is legal.

That's only if you accept the assertion that you have rights before you are born.

Mycroft147 wrote: Stygma wrote: Mycroft147 wrote: And by the way doctor, the woman doesnt have to have sex. she has a choice to go through all the horrors of pregnancy. If yout htink about it your reasoning is also an argument for infanticide. Wh yshould the parents have to go through all the agonies of raising a child and caring for it? they should just be able to kill it!

You're trying to draw a ridiculous conclusion based upon an extension of the reasoning behind his argument, but he ignore the actual reasoning. Abortion is an alternative to more children being born into lives that are terrible, being born into families where they'll be unwanted and unloved. The woman has the choice to not have sex, yes, but as sex is pleasurable and damn fun people will always seek it out, and there needs to be a second option.

Yes i am, yes he did.And yes abortion is an alternative, one that infringes on a humans right to life and should not be allowed merely because people will always want to have fun and pleasure without consequences.

No, before you are born you have no rights. The right to life is the right to the continuation of life, and the distinct style of life that humans have (rational thought being a big one) that give them rights begins at birth.

TheGirlNextDoor · Joined: 08 Jul 2004 Posts: 22608

Mycroft147 wrote: If abortion was illegal then we wouldnt have to argue about the fathers rights.

And by the way doctor, the woman doesnt have to have sex. she has a choice to go through all the horrors of pregnancy. If yout htink about it your reasoning is also an argument for infanticide. Wh yshould the parents have to go through all the agonies of raising a child and caring for it? they should just be able to kill it!

The "horrors" of pregnancy? What horrors!?

Mycroft147 · Joined: 20 Feb 2006 Posts: 142 Location: minnesota

Stygma wrote: Mycroft147 wrote: Stygma wrote: Mycroft147 wrote: If abortion was illegal then we wouldnt have to argue about the fathers rights.

And if we lived in a fascist state we wouldn't have to talk about rights at all! :roll:

Yeah, and the point i was making is that no one is gonna have equal rights when abortion is legal.

That's only if you accept the assertion that you have rights before you are born.

Mycroft147 wrote: Stygma wrote: Mycroft147 wrote: And by the way doctor, the woman doesnt have to have sex. she has a choice to go through all the horrors of pregnancy. If yout htink about it your reasoning is also an argument for infanticide. Wh yshould the parents have to go through all the agonies of raising a child and caring for it? they should just be able to kill it!

You're trying to draw a ridiculous conclusion based upon an extension of the reasoning behind his argument, but he ignore the actual reasoning. Abortion is an alternative to more children being born into lives that are terrible, being born into families where they'll be unwanted and unloved. The woman has the choice to not have sex, yes, but as sex is pleasurable and damn fun people will always seek it out, and there needs to be a second option.

Yes i am, yes he did.And yes abortion is an alternative, one that infringes on a humans right to life and should not be allowed merely because people will always want to have fun and pleasure without consequences.

No, before you are born you have no rights. The right to life is the right to the continuation of life, and the distinct style of life that humans have (rational thought being a big one) that give them rights begins at birth.

I agree, in the Us before you are born you have no rights. But i also say that should be changed. Yes the right to life is the right to the continuation of life, and since the embryo is alive since conception, it should be allowed to continuee to live. Duh. There are no logical reasons why someones rights should begin at birth. And if you define life by the ability to think rationally, you are arguing for infanticide, since many small children cant think rationally.

Mycroft147 · Joined: 20 Feb 2006 Posts: 142 Location: minnesota

Are we having a quoting contest on that post or somehting? seriously, look at it....

the_doctor · Joined: 01 Jan 2006 Posts: 353 Location: Sydney

Mycroft147 wrote: the_doctor wrote: Mycroft147 wrote: If abortion was illegal then we wouldnt have to argue about the fathers rights.

And by the way doctor, the woman doesnt have to have sex. she has a choice to go through all the horrors of pregnancy. If yout htink about it your reasoning is also an argument for infanticide. Wh yshould the parents have to go through all the agonies of raising a child and caring for it? they should just be able to kill it!

Well, no sane person can go through their lives without having sex and the answer is contraception. But in the absence of the latter or if it fails then the only option is abortion to handle an unwanted pregnancy, provided its in early stages.

Strange as it is to you, im pretty sure there have been sane people who went through life without having sex. The answer is not contraceptives, the answer is waiting until you find someone you want to marry and then having children with them. Abortion is also not the only option to an unwanted pregnancy, adoption is there and also having the child. Two ways that dont infringe on anyones right to life.

I think infanticide is a bit on the extreme side as that would suggest killing already born children. Not unborn ones.

Yeah its one the extreme side, and so are you. You are discriminating against unborn children just because, htrough no fault of thier own, they are still in the early stages of life. Why should being born grant anyone the right to life when theyve been alive for 9 months already?>

Negative.

You miss the point entirely. Its upto the pregnant woman in question while during the legally defined period as to whether she goes through with the pregnancy or not, no one else - unless there is a medical reason for not having an abortion.

Ultimately the solution is contraception, especially condoms, never abstinance. Failing that morning after pill, e.g. RU 486

BTW "horrors of pregnancy?" I said no such thing.

Mycroft147 · Joined: 20 Feb 2006 Posts: 142 Location: minnesota

TheGirlNextDoor wrote: Mycroft147 wrote: If abortion was illegal then we wouldnt have to argue about the fathers rights.

And by the way doctor, the woman doesnt have to have sex. she has a choice to go through all the horrors of pregnancy. If yout htink about it your reasoning is also an argument for infanticide. Wh yshould the parents have to go through all the agonies of raising a child and caring for it? they should just be able to kill it!

The "horrors" of pregnancy? What horrors!?

Sorry i was quoting the previous post. ask him.

Mycroft147 · Joined: 20 Feb 2006 Posts: 142 Location: minnesota

the_doctor wrote: Mycroft147 wrote: the_doctor wrote: Mycroft147 wrote: If abortion was illegal then we wouldnt have to argue about the fathers rights.

And by the way doctor, the woman doesnt have to have sex. she has a choice to go through all the horrors of pregnancy. If yout htink about it your reasoning is also an argument for infanticide. Wh yshould the parents have to go through all the agonies of raising a child and caring for it? they should just be able to kill it!

Well, no sane person can go through their lives without having sex and the answer is contraception. But in the absence of the latter or if it fails then the only option is abortion to handle an unwanted pregnancy, provided its in early stages.

Strange as it is to you, im pretty sure there have been sane people who went through life without having sex. The answer is not contraceptives, the answer is waiting until you find someone you want to marry and then having children with them. Abortion is also not the only option to an unwanted pregnancy, adoption is there and also having the child. Two ways that dont infringe on anyones right to life.

I think infanticide is a bit on the extreme side as that would suggest killing already born children. Not unborn ones.

Yeah its one the extreme side, and so are you. You are discriminating against unborn children just because, htrough no fault of thier own, they are still in the early stages of life. Why should being born grant anyone the right to life when theyve been alive for 9 months already?>

Negative.

You miss the point entirely. Its upto the pregnant woman in question while during the legally defined period as to whether she goes through with the pregnancy or not, no one else - unless there is a medical reason for not having an abortion.

Ultimately the solution is contraception, especially condoms, never abstinance. Failing that morning after pill, e.g. RU 486

Im not missing the point. I know its up to the woman, and im saying it shouldnt be because then she is allowed power over somoen elses life. For Catholics the solution is not contraception, but that would be a better option than abortion. You are arguing as if you dont realize that i think abortion should be illegal. Give me some reasons why it should be legal, not just statements about the laws.

Stygma · Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 11:48 pm Post subject:

Mycroft147 wrote: Stygma wrote: Mycroft147 wrote: Stygma wrote: Mycroft147 wrote: If abortion was illegal then we wouldnt have to argue about the fathers rights.

And if we lived in a fascist state we wouldn't have to talk about rights at all! :roll:

Yeah, and the point i was making is that no one is gonna have equal rights when abortion is legal.

That's only if you accept the assertion that you have rights before you are born.

Mycroft147 wrote: Stygma wrote: Mycroft147 wrote: And by the way doctor, the woman doesnt have to have sex. she has a choice to go through all the horrors of pregnancy. If yout htink about it your reasoning is also an argument for infanticide. Wh yshould the parents have to go through all the agonies of raising a child and caring for it? they should just be able to kill it!

You're trying to draw a ridiculous conclusion based upon an extension of the reasoning behind his argument, but he ignore the actual reasoning. Abortion is an alternative to more children being born into lives that are terrible, being born into families where they'll be unwanted and unloved. The woman has the choice to not have sex, yes, but as sex is pleasurable and damn fun people will always seek it out, and there needs to be a second option.

Yes i am, yes he did.And yes abortion is an alternative, one that infringes on a humans right to life and should not be allowed merely because people will always want to have fun and pleasure without consequences.

No, before you are born you have no rights. The right to life is the right to the continuation of life, and the distinct style of life that humans have (rational thought being a big one) that give them rights begins at birth.

I agree, in the Us before you are born you have no rights. But i also say that should be changed. Yes the right to life is the right to the continuation of life, and since the embryo is alive since conception, it should be allowed to continuee to live. Duh. There are no logical reasons why someones rights should begin at birth. And if you define life by the ability to think rationally, you are arguing for infanticide, since many small children cant think rationally.

First off, you seem to be under the assumption that rights can be "changed" through legislation. No, they cannot. Rights cannot be made to exist through force.

You seem to have misunderstood my post. Understandable. I was saying that rights are achieved at birth, with the sudden ability to think and to reason. Starting at birth, an infant begins to learn to reason, and undergoes amazing mental transformation. A newborn can think beyond instinct. The right to life as the continuation of life is only possible once you have achieved the mental status of a human, something a tiny cluster of cells does not have. This is the same reason animals do not have rights: they are not and will not become rational beings.

Sailor Moon · Joined: 22 Sep 2005 Posts: 2782 Location: O-town, Florida

Yeah the worst thing about being pregnant is the temporary morning sickness (which only affects less than half of all pregnant women) and for me, the charlie horses on the nights that I didnt eat a banana before going to bed. (potassium issue, pregnant women need alot of potassium to avoid leg cramps at night)...well, the tooth problems that resulted from the morning sickness were horrific, I will admit freely- I just had another rotten tooth pulled this week.. yay.... because my dentist post partum stunk at his job, and my 19 fillings fell out, all because of friggin morning sickness... but my family has horrible dental genes as it is..so there is usually some horrible dental story going on for us...

Otherwise, it was quite blissful, really. I could name a million wonderful things about carrying another life inside of me.. but the most wonderful thing was just the single, simple fact, that I was doing something extraordinary- Helping to create a whole life! That... was just... AWESOME. I cant describe it any other way. It was magnificent! And my son, on his sonograms, was just so handsome, and smiling at the camera!! What a cutie pie...

I love my baby boy! (well, my 7 year old baby boy, hahahaa)

Stygma · Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 11:53 pm Post subject:

Sailor Moon wrote: Yeah the worst thing about being pregnant is the temporary morning sickness (which only affects less than half of all pregnant women) and for me, the charlie horses on the nights that I didnt eat a banana before going to bed. (potassium issue, pregnant women need alot of potassium to avoid leg cramps at night)...well, the tooth problems that resulted from the morning sickness were horrific, I will admit freely- I just had another rotten tooth pulled this week.. yay.... because my dentist post partum stunk at his job, and my 19 fillings fell out, all because of friggin morning sickness... but my family has horrible dental genes as it is..so there is usually some horrible dental story going on for us...

Otherwise, it was quite blissful, really. I could name a million wonderful things about carrying another life inside of me.. but the most wonderful thing was just the single, simple fact, that I was doing something extraordinary- Helping to create a whole life! That... was just... AWESOME. I cant describe it any other way. It was magnificent! And my son, on his sonograms, was just so handsome, and smiling at the camera!! What a cutie pie...

I love my baby boy! (well, my 7 year old baby boy, hahahaa)

What about the part where the pregnant woman screams at her husband/boyfriend to get her the pickles and ice cream right f***ing now godammit! :(

Mycroft147 · Joined: 20 Feb 2006 Posts: 142 Location: minnesota

Stygma wrote: Mycroft147 wrote: Stygma wrote: Mycroft147 wrote: Stygma wrote: Mycroft147 wrote: If abortion was illegal then we wouldnt have to argue about the fathers rights.

And if we lived in a fascist state we wouldn't have to talk about rights at all! :roll:

Yeah, and the point i was making is that no one is gonna have equal rights when abortion is legal.

That's only if you accept the assertion that you have rights before you are born.

Mycroft147 wrote: Stygma wrote: Mycroft147 wrote: And by the way doctor, the woman doesnt have to have sex. she has a choice to go through all the horrors of pregnancy. If yout htink about it your reasoning is also an argument for infanticide. Wh yshould the parents have to go through all the agonies of raising a child and caring for it? they should just be able to kill it!

You're trying to draw a ridiculous conclusion based upon an extension of the reasoning behind his argument, but he ignore the actual reasoning. Abortion is an alternative to more children being born into lives that are terrible, being born into families where they'll be unwanted and unloved. The woman has the choice to not have sex, yes, but as sex is pleasurable and damn fun people will always seek it out, and there needs to be a second option.

Yes i am, yes he did.And yes abortion is an alternative, one that infringes on a humans right to life and should not be allowed merely because people will always want to have fun and pleasure without consequences.

No, before you are born you have no rights. The right to life is the right to the continuation of life, and the distinct style of life that humans have (rational thought being a big one) that give them rights begins at birth.

I agree, in the Us before you are born you have no rights. But i also say that should be changed. Yes the right to life is the right to the continuation of life, and since the embryo is alive since conception, it should be allowed to continuee to live. Duh. There are no logical reasons why someones rights should begin at birth. And if you define life by the ability to think rationally, you are arguing for infanticide, since many small children cant think rationally.

First off, you seem to be under the assumption that rights can be "changed" through legislation. No, they cannot. Rights cannot be made to exist through force.

You seem to have misunderstood my post. Understandable. I was saying that rights are achieved at birth, with the sudden ability to think and to reason. Starting at birth, an infant begins to learn to reason, and undergoes amazing mental transformation. A newborn can think beyond instinct. The right to life as the continuation of life is only possible once you have achieved the mental status of a human, something a tiny cluster of cells does not have. This is the same reason animals do not have rights: they are not and will not become rational beings.

Ok, what i meant was that in the US their rights are ignored, not that they dont have any. And that CAN be changed by legislation. You knew what i meant. And where did you get the idea that babies suddenly start thinking and reasoning at birth? Lets see some scientific evidence for that. You also fail to define where human life begins if not at conception. If a tiny cluster of huma cells has no right to life, why do we big clusters of human cells have this right? You say animals will not become rational beings. True. Its also true that at conception embryos have the ability to become rational beings. So you actually have pro-life argument there. Nice.

the_doctor · Joined: 01 Jan 2006 Posts: 353 Location: Sydney

Quote:
Im not missing the point. I know its up to the woman, and im saying it shouldnt be because then she is allowed power over somoen elses life. For Catholics the solution is not contraception, but that would be a better option than abortion. You are arguing as if you dont realize that i think abortion should be illegal. Give me some reasons why it should be legal, not just statements about the laws.

For Catholics, well that is a problem and something they need to think hard and long about.

Reasons for abortion been legal. Ok how about this for starters...

1. Age e.g. Teenage pregnancy as in under 16 or 18
2. Rape
3. Medical reason, either the mother will die during child birth or the baby will shortly after birth.
4. Psychological fear of pregnancy.
5. Financial circumstances.
6. Divorce

Mycroft147 · Joined: 20 Feb 2006 Posts: 142 Location: minnesota

Stygma wrote: Sailor Moon wrote: Yeah the worst thing about being pregnant is the temporary morning sickness (which only affects less than half of all pregnant women) and for me, the charlie horses on the nights that I didnt eat a banana before going to bed. (potassium issue, pregnant women need alot of potassium to avoid leg cramps at night)...well, the tooth problems that resulted from the morning sickness were horrific, I will admit freely- I just had another rotten tooth pulled this week.. yay.... because my dentist post partum stunk at his job, and my 19 fillings fell out, all because of friggin morning sickness... but my family has horrible dental genes as it is..so there is usually some horrible dental story going on for us...

Otherwise, it was quite blissful, really. I could name a million wonderful things about carrying another life inside of me.. but the most wonderful thing was just the single, simple fact, that I was doing something extraordinary- Helping to create a whole life! That... was just... AWESOME. I cant describe it any other way. It was magnificent! And my son, on his sonograms, was just so handsome, and smiling at the camera!! What a cutie pie...

I love my baby boy! (well, my 7 year old baby boy, hahahaa)

What about the part where the pregnant woman screams at her husband/boyfriend to get her the pickles and ice cream right f***ing now godammit! :(

What does that have to do with anything...she was talking about how pregnancy affected her, stop freaking out.