Political Crossfire Forums

[Mangas_Coloradas]

Well the obvious answer should be yes, but this is a quote from the Koran

"Belivers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. They
are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall
become one of their number. God does not guide the wrongdoers"

[Zeeman]

Mangas first of all that verse is translated incorrectly.

Secondly both Jews and Christians are referred to in Islam as "people of the book" and therefore given a special relationship with Muslims.

Second of all original inhabitants of Jerusalem and other areas in the Arab world always lived peacefully.Before Europe had multi monetheistic religions living peacefully they were doing that in the Muslim world.There are very famous people in the Arab world who are of both faiths(not muslims) and no one cares..No one even mentions it because its normal and everyone is used to it...

I am a Muslim and I have friends from all over the place among them lots of Chritians and Jews, Buddists,Atheists..

Also no one in Islam will ever deny the roles of both these religions and the respect we have for all OUR prophets.ALso during the hard times of the begining of Islam when Muslime were being punished in every single way for their faith,the Prophet told his follower to go to a Christian King of Habasha( currently Ethiopia I think). The prophet told them that he is a man of faith and wisdom and he will protect them,which he did..So to this day despite the crusades and everything we still remember that..

Also muslims can marry from these two faiths without having to convert their spouses..Actually the Prophet himself did that.

[Glorfindel]

Mangas_Coloradas wrote: Well the obvious answer should be yes, but this is a quote from the Koran

"Belivers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. They
are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall
become one of their number. God does not guide the wrongdoers"

first of all I must say, thats a very poor translation of that verse from Qur'an

this verse is not about whom to be friends with... it is a lesson in politics for muslims

the prohpet's neighbour was a Jew and when he got sick the prophet visited him and checked on him

this verse talks about whom to be allied with..in politics and war..not who to be friends with in a society

this verse orders muslim not to make alliance with christians or jews ... that doesnt mean that the verse encourages muslims to be their enemy, politically speaking, but remain neutral

was that verse translated as you quoted in in your copy of Qur'an? and if so, isn't there any explanation of any kind about it?

as I said, it is not prohibited in Islam to make friends with christians or jews

P.S: sometimes a verse can be misunderstodd if it is taken out of its context, the verse you provided makes a very good example

peace

[Glorfindel]

Zeeman wrote: Mangas first of all that verse is translated incorrectly.

Secondly both Jews and Christians are referred to in Islam as "people of the book" and therefore given a special relationship with Muslims.

Second of all original inhabitants of Jerusalem and other areas in the Arab world always lived peacefully.Before Europe had multi monetheistic religions living peacefully they were doing that in the Muslim world.There are very famous people in the Arab world who are of both faiths(not muslims) and no one cares..No one even mentions it because its normal and everyone is used to it...

I am a Muslim and I have friends from all over the place among them lots of Chritians and Jews, Buddists,Atheists..

Also no one in Islam will ever deny the roles of both these religions and the respect we have for all OUR prophets.ALso during the hard times of the begining of Islam when Muslime were being punished in every single way for their faith,the Prophet told his follower to go to a Christian King of Habasha( currently Ethiopia I think). The prophet told them that he is a man of faith and wisdom and he will protect them,which he did..So to this day despite the crusades and everything we still remember that..

Also muslims can marry from these two faiths without having to convert their spouses..Actually the Prophet himself did that.

excellent points zeeman,,and don't forget that when the prophet sent a messenger to the king of ethiopia to deliver to him the message of Islam, he converted and embraced Islam and died a muslim and let his people learn of the new religion and convert if they wanted ( which is a proof that the Islamic conquests at that time was not for wealth and territory, but to spread the word of God because muslims armies never invaded Ethiopia because the message of Islam has reached it without a need to unseathing a sword and christains there were free to convert to Islam if they wanted)

thank you

peace

[Zeeman]

Thank You Glorfindel..

Back to the verse provided it is actually translated wrongly(should be allies ) and also out of context..

It just calls for Muslims to depend on themselves for protection because they have been betrayed because of an alliance they had at the time...

I am no scholar but if you are interested I can find a site to explain the whole story which lead to this from a website cuz too lazy to have a long post...sorry.

[Saracen]

Glorfindel wrote: Zeeman wrote: Mangas first of all that verse is translated incorrectly.

Secondly both Jews and Christians are referred to in Islam as "people of the book" and therefore given a special relationship with Muslims.

Second of all original inhabitants of Jerusalem and other areas in the Arab world always lived peacefully.Before Europe had multi monetheistic religions living peacefully they were doing that in the Muslim world.There are very famous people in the Arab world who are of both faiths(not muslims) and no one cares..No one even mentions it because its normal and everyone is used to it...

I am a Muslim and I have friends from all over the place among them lots of Chritians and Jews, Buddists,Atheists..

Also no one in Islam will ever deny the roles of both these religions and the respect we have for all OUR prophets.ALso during the hard times of the begining of Islam when Muslime were being punished in every single way for their faith,the Prophet told his follower to go to a Christian King of Habasha( currently Ethiopia I think). The prophet told them that he is a man of faith and wisdom and he will protect them,which he did..So to this day despite the crusades and everything we still remember that..

Also muslims can marry from these two faiths without having to convert their spouses..Actually the Prophet himself did that.

excellent points zeeman,,and don't forget that when the prophet sent a messenger to the king of ethiopia to deliver to him the message of Islam, he converted and embraced Islam and died a muslim and let his people learn of the new religion and convert if they wanted ( which is a proof that the Islamic conquests at that time was not for wealth and territory, but to spread the word of God because muslims armies never invaded Ethiopia because the message of Islam has reached it without a need to unseathing a sword and christains there were free to convert to Islam if they wanted)

thank you

peace

Indeed. The translation here doesn't involve "friends", but "allies with the Christians and Jews (against Muslim brethren)". It doesn't mean we can't be friends.

Excellent points all in all.

[Mangas_Coloradas]

I bought a cheap edition of the Koran a couple of years ago.
(Penguin classics, translated by someone called N.J. Dawood).

There is a short introduction in the book , but there is no explanation
for the verses.

Is there a good translation of the Koran available online ?

Ok so if the verse is about allies and wars, then you could argue
that no muslim nation should be allied with the US or any other
christian countries ? Or is the verse only about events from the past ?

[Saracen]

Here is one:
http://www.al-quran.org.uk/
This one has commentary available as well to help you understand each verse.
Hope that helps. :-D

[Glorfindel]

Mangas_Coloradas wrote: I bought a cheap edition of the Koran a couple of years ago.
(Penguin classics, translated by someone called N.J. Dawood).

There is a short introduction in the book , but there is no explanation
for the verses.

Is there a good translation of the Koran available online ?

Ok so if the verse is about allies and wars, then you could argue
that no muslim nation should be allied with the US or any other
christian countries ? Or is the verse only about events from the past ?

no it is not only about the events that took place in the past...

no muslim nation should make alliance with anybody against another muslim nation..and you have no idea how much dismay and anger the people in the middle east have when one of their leaders opens the grounds and skies of his state for the US to use to launch air craft assults or missiles to kill other muslims, wherever they are

in fact those who study Islamic history . in my opinion should be the most appreciative of the importance of this verse...

wherever the flag of Islam has fallen, it didnt fall by the hands of the enemy, but by the hands of those who didnt obey God's orders in that verse...

look at the fall of Grenada for example... or the fall of Baghdad by the hands of the Mongols... it was treachery between muslims themsleves that inflicted the most horrible catastrophes on Islam and muslims

I wish muslim leaders at least read and contemplated the lesson in that verse as much as you did Mangas, maybe we wouldnt be as miserable and weak as we are now

thx

P.S: I think you could call the embassy of Saudi Arabia and ask them to send you a translated copy of the Holy Qur'an for free..

[Zeeman]

Mangas_Coloradas wrote: I bought a cheap edition of the Koran a couple of years ago.
(Penguin classics, translated by someone called N.J. Dawood).

There is a short introduction in the book , but there is no explanation
for the verses.

Is there a good translation of the Koran available online ?

Ok so if the verse is about allies and wars, then you could argue
that no muslim nation should be allied with the US or any other
christian countries ? Or is the verse only about events from the past ?

Well there are verses in the Quran and from the Prophet sayings that you should honor agreements...But the problem is you shouldnt do it(ally with foreigners) against Muslim countries.

Thanks for discussing this BTW...

[Mangas_Coloradas]

Glorfindel wrote: no it is not only about the events that took place in the past...

no muslim nation should make alliance with anybody against another muslim nation..and you have no idea how much dismay and anger the people in the middle east have when one of their leaders opens the grounds and skies of his state for the US to use to launch air craft assults or missiles to kill other muslims, wherever they are

in fact those who study Islamic history . in my opinion should be the most appreciative of the importance of this verse...

wherever the flag of Islam has fallen, it didnt fall by the hands of the enemy, but by the hands of those who didnt obey God's orders in that verse...

look at the fall of Grenada for example... or the fall of Baghdad by the hands of the Mongols... it was treachery between muslims themsleves that inflicted the most horrible catastrophes on Islam and muslims

I wish muslim leaders at least read and contemplated the lesson in that verse as much as you did Mangas, maybe we wouldnt be as miserable and weak as we are now

thx

P.S: I think you could call the embassy of Saudi Arabia and ask them to send you a translated copy of the Holy Qur'an for free..

I am not sure Saudi Arabia would want to send anything to Norway at the
present time......

[Glorfindel]

Mangas_Coloradas wrote: Glorfindel wrote: no it is not only about the events that took place in the past...

no muslim nation should make alliance with anybody against another muslim nation..and you have no idea how much dismay and anger the people in the middle east have when one of their leaders opens the grounds and skies of his state for the US to use to launch air craft assults or missiles to kill other muslims, wherever they are

in fact those who study Islamic history . in my opinion should be the most appreciative of the importance of this verse...

wherever the flag of Islam has fallen, it didnt fall by the hands of the enemy, but by the hands of those who didnt obey God's orders in that verse...

look at the fall of Grenada for example... or the fall of Baghdad by the hands of the Mongols... it was treachery between muslims themsleves that inflicted the most horrible catastrophes on Islam and muslims

I wish muslim leaders at least read and contemplated the lesson in that verse as much as you did Mangas, maybe we wouldnt be as miserable and weak as we are now

thx

P.S: I think you could call the embassy of Saudi Arabia and ask them to send you a translated copy of the Holy Qur'an for free..

I am not sure Saudi Arabia would want to send anything to Norway at the
present time......

lol.. I don't think on the diplomatic level there is a problem between Saudi Arabia and Norway, just give them a call and see

[Mangas_Coloradas]

Glorfindel wrote: lol.. I don't think on the diplomatic level there is a problem between Saudi Arabia and Norway, just give them a call and see

You are right, I don't think tbere is any problem between Saudi Arabia
and Norway. At least nothing serious that I am aware of.
Having an online version of the Koran is good enough for me, but
maybe I will give them call or email them later.

[kain]

Mangas_Coloradas wrote: Well the obvious answer should be yes, but this is a quote from the Koran

"Belivers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. They
are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall
become one of their number. God does not guide the wrongdoers"

There is a special bond between Muslims and Christians , one day they will become more than allies , united as one , destiny will take its course.

[The_Right_Honourable]

I have a question on this quote about not being able to ally with Jew and Christians against other Muslims.

Can a Jewish or Christian state not be morally right to attack a muslim state? Surely no one can doubt that it was right and just to defeat the Taliban (Although theyre still there, stupid, ineffective US Army be damned) in Afghanistan?

If for example Syria invaded Lebinon again and started to kick out the Christians, would it still be wrong for the West to come and help liberate a Muslim nation?

[Saracen]

The_Right_Honourable wrote: I have a question on this quote about not being able to ally with Jew and Christians against other Muslims.

Can a Jewish or Christian state not be morally right to attack a muslim state? Surely no one can doubt that it was right and just to defeat the Taliban (Although theyre still there, stupid, ineffective US Army be damned) in Afghanistan?

If for example Syria invaded Lebinon again and started to kick out the Christians, would it still be wrong for the West to come and help liberate a Muslim nation?

Good question. A Jewish and/or Christian state such as the US had its own right to attack the Taliban. No one in the Middle East opposed such a thing. But this verse clearly speaks about active alliance, not passive alliance.

As for your example, you provided an impossible situation. Syria itself has many Christians, almost as many Muslims and, believe it or not, Jews, even though the Muslims are in the majority. I don't think that Syria would kick out Lebanon's Christians, considering they are 50% of Lebanon's population, and maybe even more!

[Zeeman]

Mangas_Coloradas wrote: Glorfindel wrote: no it is not only about the events that took place in the past...

no muslim nation should make alliance with anybody against another muslim nation..and you have no idea how much dismay and anger the people in the middle east have when one of their leaders opens the grounds and skies of his state for the US to use to launch air craft assults or missiles to kill other muslims, wherever they are

in fact those who study Islamic history . in my opinion should be the most appreciative of the importance of this verse...

wherever the flag of Islam has fallen, it didnt fall by the hands of the enemy, but by the hands of those who didnt obey God's orders in that verse...

look at the fall of Grenada for example... or the fall of Baghdad by the hands of the Mongols... it was treachery between muslims themsleves that inflicted the most horrible catastrophes on Islam and muslims

I wish muslim leaders at least read and contemplated the lesson in that verse as much as you did Mangas, maybe we wouldnt be as miserable and weak as we are now

thx

P.S: I think you could call the embassy of Saudi Arabia and ask them to send you a translated copy of the Holy Qur'an for free..

I am not sure Saudi Arabia would want to send anything to Norway at the
present time......

Believe me they would reach out for you if you rquest that :-D

[jeechoscopy]

As the translation seems wrong, I would say Muslims are allowed to marry to Christians and Jews. Friendship is even a primary relationship.

[jeechoscopy]

Some warnings are there in hadiths that they would attack on you while you have treaties about not to attack on each other. (See hadiths about Armageddon.)

[eynon]

kain wrote: Mangas_Coloradas wrote: Well the obvious answer should be yes, but this is a quote from the Koran

"Belivers, take neither the Jews nor the Christians for your friends. They
are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall
become one of their number. God does not guide the wrongdoers"

There is a special bond between Muslims and Christians , one day they will become more than allies , united as one , destiny will take its course.

interesting :think: could you elaborate on that?