Political Crossfire Forums

wormwood · Joined: 25 Sep 2005 Posts: 2342 Location: The P-Brane

Quote: The value of a symbol is determined, independently, by both the party using said symbol and the party of the opposite end. And what if the "party of the opposite end" is an inanimate object? The reason I ask is because there was an experiment done where a scientist took several samples of water and labeled them with words (symbols). When left overnight, the water molecules had changed. If you can find pictures of it online, you will notice how each picture looks like the word that was put on it (love, hate, happiness, etc). If you see the colored pictures you should note that the color was added by an artist, but the shapes are profound.

My point is that the water places no value on the symbol of "love" for example...is it that we as a community give it power, or that "love" is a real force (in this sense) and independant of us realizing it?

eynon · Posted: Mon Feb 06, 2006 7:38 pm Post subject:

cap'n queasy wrote: Objects of metal or wood have no power.

Iconoclasim...woot! :-D

I believe that symbols have no power in and of themselves, they are dead objects crafted by human hands.

There's a story about a Jesuit Monk in Japan, who was given the choice of desicrating an image of Christ or saving some of his friends from execution. The Monk couldn't make up his mind, hesitated, and his friends were killed.....I wouldn't have hesitated, that image would've been desicrated faster then you could say heretic.......god doesn't give a rip about stuff, even pretty stuff :wink:

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 8510

wormwood wrote: Quote: The value of a symbol is determined, independently, by both the party using said symbol and the party of the opposite end. And what if the "party of the opposite end" is an inanimate object? The reason I ask is because there was an experiment done where a scientist took several samples of water and labeled them with words (symbols). When left overnight, the water molecules had changed. If you can find pictures of it online, you will notice how each picture looks like the word that was put on it (love, hate, happiness, etc). If you see the colored pictures you should note that the color was added by an artist, but the shapes are profound.

My point is that the water places no value on the symbol of "love" for example...is it that we as a community give it power, or that "love" is a real force (in this sense) and independant of us realizing it?

I would have to examine the experiment, but it sounds intriguing.

wormwood · Joined: 25 Sep 2005 Posts: 2342 Location: The P-Brane

Quote: I would have to examine the experiment, but it sounds intriguing. Assuming that it's true, the implications are amazing. Would that mean that words have power because we as a society say they have power, or do the concepts they represent hold the power? If it is the latter, then do the concepts define the word instead of the other way around?

Just a side note: Assuming that the research is correct, what effect do we have on each other with our words since our bodies are more than 70% water? :wink:

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 8510

wormwood wrote: Quote: I would have to examine the experiment, but it sounds intriguing. Assuming that it's true, the implications are amazing. Would that mean that words have power because we as a society say they have power, or do the concepts they represent hold the power? If it is the latter, then do the concepts define the word instead of the other way around?

Just a side note: Assuming that the research is correct, what effect do we have on each other with our words since our bodies are more than 70% water? :wink:

Well, I have to admit that both the water experiment, and your question, are both intriguing.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Eynon81 wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Objects of metal or wood have no power.

Iconoclasim...woot! :-D

I believe that symbols have no power in and of themselves, they are dead objects crafted by human hands.

There's a story about a Jesuit Monk in Japan, who was given the choice of desicrating an image of Christ or saving some of his friends from execution. The Monk couldn't make up his mind, hesitated, and his friends were killed.....I wouldn't have hesitated, that image would've been desicrated faster then you could say heretic.......god doesn't give a rip about stuff, even pretty stuff :wink:

I also don't think material objects are that important in the greater scheme of things. I would have done the same. One would have to view the object as a type of idol to think otherwise IMHO.

wormwood · Joined: 25 Sep 2005 Posts: 2342 Location: The P-Brane

Quote: I also don't think material objects are that important in the greater scheme of things. I would have done the same. One would have to view the object as a type of idol to think otherwise IMHO. I think you guys are talking about the object being "sacred" and not necessarily powerful...If the Jesuit had used the crucifix to lay waste to his captors, or in someway invoked the power of the object, then you would be more on target. I think any rational person would save their friends over a piece of wood, unless they thought that the piece of wood might save the friends.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

What I mean is symbols, holy or otherwise, only convey information. This is not in itself power. Earthly power can be found in how information is used, but a symbol has no intrinsic power in itself.

wormwood · Joined: 25 Sep 2005 Posts: 2342 Location: The P-Brane

Quote: What I mean is symbols, holy or otherwise, only convey information. This is not in itself power. Earthly power can be found in how information is used, but a symbol has no intrinsic power in itself. Good answer. Thanks Cap.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

:wink: You're welcome.

eynon · Posted: Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:00 pm Post subject:

cap'n queasy wrote: What I mean is symbols, holy or otherwise, only convey information. This is not in itself power. Earthly power can be found in how information is used, but a symbol has no intrinsic power in itself.

that's how I feel :-D

BassistVIV · Joined: 09 Jul 2005 Posts: 847 Location: Florida

cap'n queasy wrote: What I mean is symbols, holy or otherwise, only convey information. This is not in itself power. Earthly power can be found in how information is used, but a symbol has no intrinsic power in itself.

Still waiting on that proof Cap'n :wink:

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

BassistVIV wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: What I mean is symbols, holy or otherwise, only convey information. This is not in itself power. Earthly power can be found in how information is used, but a symbol has no intrinsic power in itself.

Still waiting on that proof Cap'n :wink:

You may as well ask for proof the sky is blue.

BassistVIV · Joined: 09 Jul 2005 Posts: 847 Location: Florida

cap'n queasy wrote: BassistVIV wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: What I mean is symbols, holy or otherwise, only convey information. This is not in itself power. Earthly power can be found in how information is used, but a symbol has no intrinsic power in itself.

Still waiting on that proof Cap'n :wink:

You may as well ask for proof the sky is blue.

What does that have anything to do with the discussion at hand? Off topic.