Political Crossfire Forums

[wormwood]

Does anyone believe in the power of the holy symbols? If so, do you believe that only the symbols of your faith hold power, or do you contend that many or all symbols have power if the wielder believes? Does the crucifix hold power over supernatural beings? How about the Star of David (made up of two triangles; triangles being the shape for holding or subduing demons). What about the ankh, or the winged globe? I guess what I am asking is, is there anything innately powerful in the symbols themselves, or do we give them power? If it is from a higher source, why do symbols from multiple cultures work? If it is from the wielder, why do they need an object in the first place?

[Korimyr the Rat]

We give them power, through our own connection to the divine. Or, perhaps, the divine gives the symbols power, through their connection to us.

All I know is that I can no more repel a demon with a crucifix than a Christian can bless a sacred oath with a hammer.

[wormwood]

Quote: We give them power, through our own connection to the divine. Or, perhaps, the divine gives the symbols power, through their connection to us.
That was a casual dodge :lol: Which is it?

Quote: All I know is that I can no more repel a demon with a crucifix than a Christian can bless a sacred oath with a hammer. :lol: Well by Odin's beard, may the fire giants not devour you Korimyr 8:)

[George W Bush]

symbols like crucifixes are evidently proof of the power of the mind.
people have sworn by it since its inception. they havent gone away so they are obviously doing something.
people must manifest something from symbols - good or bad. its all belief, i guess.
but, i always think theres a subliminal message behind these things like "see what dissent will cost you? learn by Jesus Christ"

[cap'n queasy]

Objects of metal or wood have no power.

[BassistVIV]

They hold whatever power you put into them.

[cap'n queasy]

No, they don't. That is a figment of the imagination.

They are merely objects made of various materials, shaping them certain ways cannot invest them with any real power.

[BassistVIV]

cap'n queasy wrote: No, they don't. That is a figment of the imagination.

They are merely objects made of various materials, shaping them certain ways cannot invest them with any real power.

Proof?

[wormwood]

Quote: George W Bush Posted:

symbols like crucifixes are evidently proof of the power of the mind.
people have sworn by it since its inception. they havent gone away so they are obviously doing something. So you are saying that the power comes from the mind of the person using it?

Quote: Objects of metal or wood have no power. What about a gun, or a sledgehammer? :lol:

Quote: No, they don't. That is a figment of the imagination.

They are merely objects made of various materials, shaping them certain ways cannot invest them with any real power. So the Catholic priests who perform exorcisms are just deluding themselves?

Quote: Proof? :lol:
This should be interesting

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: What about a gun, or a sledgehammer?

Well, I have my sledgehammer sitting out on the back porch. I keep telling it to to bust a rock, but it doesn't seem to obey my commands.

:lol:

[cap'n queasy]

I wonder what I am doing wrong?

[Saracen]

Just a side thought... I think you might find this fascinating :-D ...

Even though I don't believe in holy symbols, the common "symbol" for Islam, the star and crescent, was actually pre-Islamic and was of Pagan origin. The Arabs before used to worship a moon god(dess) called Al Lat (this is not the same as Allah/Jehovah/God). The symbol was this:



Even though it is still used in Islamic buildings such as Mosques and written on flags, it's more of a geopolitical thing than a religious thing.

[Korimyr the Rat]

wormwood wrote: That was a casual dodge :lol: Which is it?

I don't know. All I know is that it requires both a god and a person to work.

wormwood wrote: Well by Odin's beard, may the fire giants not devour you Korimyr 8:)

Thanks. If I knew the right blessing to offer you, back at ya. ;)

[John]

Moath wrote: Just a side thought... I think you might find this fascinating :-D ...

Even though I don't believe in holy symbols, the common "symbol" for Islam, the star and crescent, was actually pre-Islamic and was of Pagan origin. The Arabs before used to worship a moon god(dess) called Al Lat (this is not the same as Allah/Jehovah/God). The symbol was this:



Even though it is still used in Islamic buildings such as Mosques and written on flags, it's more of a geopolitical thing than a religious thing.

I'm surprised to see you admit that.





Correlation?

[George W Bush]

wormwood wrote: Quote: George W Bush Posted:

symbols like crucifixes are evidently proof of the power of the mind.
people have sworn by it since its inception. they havent gone away so they are obviously doing something. So you are saying that the power comes from the mind of the person using it?

yes

[Saracen]

John wrote: Correlation?

No. Islam isn't a "pagan cult" for all I know. The symbol is just a geopolitical thing, as I mentioned. It has nothing to do with Islam, which I consider a religion associated with Christianity and Judaism in most of its aspects.

Islam isn't evil, if that's where you're trying to get at.

[F'losrix]

wormwood wrote: Does anyone believe in the power of the holy symbols?
I'd suggest the place to start is to consider what makes a symbol 'holy'?

Quote: If so, do you believe that only the symbols of your faith hold power, or do you contend that many or all symbols have power if the wielder believes?
Belief is certainly very central to the issue. Are we not often told that to succeed, we must first believe in ourselves, in our abilities? Not hard to believe that this same concept extends to the use of holy symbols - that it is the strength of one's belief that endows them with power.

Quote: Does the crucifix hold power over supernatural beings? How about the Star of David (made up of two triangles; triangles being the shape for holding or subduing demons). What about the ankh, or the winged globe? I guess what I am asking is, is there anything innately powerful in the symbols themselves, or do we give them power?
I would say that we endow them with power. Whether that power comes from something internal within us, or is drawn by us from another source is open to debate. I tend to favor the latter idea.

Quote: If it is from a higher source, why do symbols from multiple cultures work?
Who says there's only one higher source? Or could it be that there is one singular source that reaches out to people in many different ways?

Quote: If it is from the wielder, why do they need an object in the first place?
To focus the energy.

Let me sum up:

I think some perhaps a little power resides within us, but just as a temporary repository; that there is a constant give and take between us and our environment. I think if you're talking about 'blessing' some symbol to make it 'holy' or otherwise endow it with lasting power, you're definitely talking about drawing the power required from an external source. But I am not entirely persuaded that inanimate objects can actually be made to hold or retain any power; I'm inclined to think not, but not entirely ready to dismiss it, as I think people do leave traces of their energy behind in the everyday objects they handle. The more you handle an object, the more of a mark your 'energy' makes upon it, or the more that object is likely to retain of it.

I am more inclined to believe that these holy symbols, talismans, etc. merely serve as a means for us to focus and direct our power or the power we draw from another source. Some may not require our constant conscious attention; our constant physical contact with them is enough to ensure that our subconscious keeps the power flowing through them.

Certainly I believe that for something to work, you have to believe very strongly that it will work. That said, the belief doesn't necessarily have to be in your uppermost conscious thoughts, either.

[Enoch]

I would argue that religious symbols only have power to those who place power in them. Words, crosses, stars, etc, are all symbolic representations of the meanings given by a culture.

For example,

This symbol holds power and meaning for me, as a Wiccan.



However, these symbols do not.





But, I understand that the pentacle will not hold any meaning or power for Christians or Jews. Symbols are manifestations of the power we associate with them.

[wormwood]

Quote: Well, I have my sledgehammer sitting out on the back porch. I keep telling it to to bust a rock, but it doesn't seem to obey my commands

I wonder what I am doing wrong? Have you tried asking nicely? :lol:

Would brandishing a gun not have power based solely on symbolic merit? In other words, could you make people obey you without actually firing the gun?

Quote: Just a side thought... I think you might find this fascinating ...

Even though I don't believe in holy symbols, the common "symbol" for Islam, the star and crescent, was actually pre-Islamic and was of Pagan origin. The Arabs before used to worship a moon god(dess) called Al Lat (this is not the same as Allah/Jehovah/God). The symbol was this
That is fascinating, although I thought that the "moon goddess" was Greek. In the middle eastern tradition, isn't it Sin (a male god) that is associated with the moon? His daughter Inanna (Ishtar) is Venus, or the morning star that appears close to the moon in that symbol.

Quote: Thanks. If I knew the right blessing to offer you, back at ya. I prefer, "See you in Hell" :lol:

Quote: I'm surprised to see you admit that. Why? Almost all religious symbolism comes from pagan roots. Islam is not the only religion with a "star" symbol. In fact, most ancient middle eastern religions had some astrological symbolism, including Judaism (the star of David for example). Even the cross is an ancient symbol, and Christianity is full of Pagan symbols. I don't see why Moath would be afraid to admit that his religion is just like most everyone else's.

Quote: So you are saying that the power comes from the mind of the person using it?


yes
Ok, so is the "mind" the same as the brain?


Quote: I'd suggest the place to start is to consider what makes a symbol 'holy'? Well, that depends on your interpretation of religion.

Quote: Belief is certainly very central to the issue. Are we not often told that to succeed, we must first believe in ourselves, in our abilities? Not hard to believe that this same concept extends to the use of holy symbols - that it is the strength of one's belief that endows them with power. What if I told you that symbols could effect inanimate objects with no level of belief? Have you ever taken quantum physics or know anything about it?

Quote: Who says there's only one higher source? Or could it be that there is one singular source that reaches out to people in many different ways? Very true.

Quote: I think some perhaps a little power resides within us, but just as a temporary repository; that there is a constant give and take between us and our environment. I think if you're talking about 'blessing' some symbol to make it 'holy' or otherwise endow it with lasting power, you're definitely talking about drawing the power required from an external source. But I am not entirely persuaded that inanimate objects can actually be made to hold or retain any power; I'm inclined to think not, but not entirely ready to dismiss it, as I think people do leave traces of their energy behind in the everyday objects they handle. The more you handle an object, the more of a mark your 'energy' makes upon it, or the more that object is likely to retain of it. This sounds like a fetish if you are familiar with shamanism at all.


Quote: I would argue that religious symbols only have power to those who place power in them. Words, crosses, stars, etc, are all symbolic representations of the meanings given by a culture. Are you saying maybe there is power if if the wielder is a nonbeliever, but society places value on the symbols?

[Enoch]

wormwood wrote:
Are you saying maybe there is power if the wielder is a nonbeliever, but society places value on the symbols?

When it comes to certain things, yes. For example, I may not place any value in a cross, but a Christian would. Therefore, desecrating a cross wouldn't invoke any sort of reaction from me but it most certainly would from Christians.

The value of a symbol is determined, independently, by both the party using said symbol and the party of the opposite end.