Political Crossfire Forums

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 8466

John wrote: UrielsFyre wrote: John wrote: UrielsFyre wrote: John wrote: Quote: Oh and John...Anton LeVey is not the most reputable source on which to base your gross generalizations.

Did he not practice witchcraft?

He may have practiced a form of Magick, but it was not the Witchcraft associated with Wicca.

If it's real...

Why do you think it would have a different source?

It isn't really the source, but the ritual and method.

For example: Assume, for the sake of argument only, that all religions are worshipping the same God. The differences lie not in who they are worshipping, but how they are worshipping.

The same goes with Magick. The difference lies not in the Magick but in how one goes about performing it and to what goals.

(Perhaps my usage of "a form of Magick" was misleading)

I understand that the rituals and methods are different. But do you deny that the source of this magic is the same? Doesn't it depend on a form of legalism...as in you gotta do this that and the other in order to get a certain type of result. Results that will pay off depending on the amount of effort put forth. A type of self salvation so to speak....

The source is the same, yes. However, it is the rituals, methods, and goals of Magick that differ between LaVey's practices and Wiccan practices.

John · Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:30 pm Post subject:

Quote: The source is the same, yes. However, it is the rituals, methods, and goals of Magick that differ between LaVey's practices and Wiccan practices.

So the source behind the "Magick" of Wicca is the same as LaVey's "power" he receives from Satanism.

I don't believe that these forces care if you do "good" or "bad'. I think that they have one common goal....and are willing to vary it in any way as long as they accomplish the common goal. Besides everyone knows that you attract more flies with honey instead of vinegar.

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 8466

John wrote: Quote: The source is the same, yes. However, it is the rituals, methods, and goals of Magick that differ between LaVey's practices and Wiccan practices.

So the source behind the "Magick" of Wicca is the same as LaVey's "power" he receives from Satanism.

I don't believe that these forces care if you do "good" or "bad'. I think that they have one common goal....and are willing to vary it in any way as long as they accomplish the common goal. Besides everyone knows that you attract more flies with honey instead of vinegar.

The problem is that the source of Magick is nature itself, and each of us. It is not a concious entity or deity. We all have Magickal power, just not all choose to (or know how to) access it.

wormwood · Joined: 25 Sep 2005 Posts: 2341 Location: The P-Brane

Quote: I understand that the rituals and methods are different. But do you deny that the source of this magic is the same? Doesn't it depend on a form of legalism...as in you gotta do this that and the other in order to get a certain type of result. Results that will pay off depending on the amount of effort put forth. A type of self salvation so to speak.... This is a dispute among atheistic and deistic practitioner's, the former believe that the power originates from within the man, and the latter believe that the man is granted the power by a higher being. Also, effort is negligible to the equation, perfection however, is key.

Quote: However, it is the rituals, methods, and goals of Magick that differ between LaVey's practices and Wiccan practices. Well, and also the intention. There are no negative effects associated with true Wicca because all of the rituals are for only beneficial effects, Satanism uses bastardized rituals from other traditions with the intention of destroying ones enemies, or the intention of benefiting the caster at whose ever expense is necessary. The first instance of the terminology for "black" and "white" magic, that I have found was Crowley. I think he more or less set the definition, though the distinction has been made since before King Solomon even.

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 8466

wormwood wrote:
Quote: However, it is the rituals, methods, and goals of Magick that differ between LaVey's practices and Wiccan practices. Well, and also the intention. There are no negative effects associated with true Wicca because all of the rituals are for only beneficial effects, Satanism uses bastardized rituals from other traditions with the intention of destroying ones enemies, or the intention of benefiting the caster at whose ever expense is necessary. The first instance of the terminology for "black" and "white" magic, that I have found was Crowley. I think he more or less set the definition, though the distinction has been made since before King Solomon even.

That is what I meant by goals. What the purpose of one's casting is dictates whether it is positive or negative Magick (or white and black if you prefer)

John · Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:42 pm Post subject:

UrielsFyre wrote: John wrote: Quote: The source is the same, yes. However, it is the rituals, methods, and goals of Magick that differ between LaVey's practices and Wiccan practices.

So the source behind the "Magick" of Wicca is the same as LaVey's "power" he receives from Satanism.

I don't believe that these forces care if you do "good" or "bad'. I think that they have one common goal....and are willing to vary it in any way as long as they accomplish the common goal. Besides everyone knows that you attract more flies with honey instead of vinegar.

The problem is that the source of Magick is nature itself, and each of us. It is not a concious entity or deity. We all have Magickal power, just not all choose to (or know how to) access it.

How do you know that it's "nature itself"?

I mean if I were a demon...it would be profitable to get you to believe you were dealing with a force of nature. Heck, in a way it's not even a total lie. Being created beings, they would be forces of nature.

Although these dealing with Magick do seem to have some kind of consciousness that respond to conscious desires. Shim Eun-Ha hears conversations in her head for crying out loud. I for one don't think she's just crazy...I believe her.

John · Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:46 pm Post subject:

Quote: This is a dispute among atheistic and deistic practitioner's, the former believe that the power originates from within the man, and the latter believe that the man is granted the power by a higher being. Also, effort is negligible to the equation, perfection however, is key.

The former just substitutes God with himself....he is his own god.

Yes...perfection is ALWAYS the key with Legalism. This is where all religion fall short of the truth in my opinion. Not just Pagan religions but ALL religions are in vain because of this sad short coming of think we need to earn our Salvation.

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 8466

John wrote: UrielsFyre wrote: John wrote: Quote: The source is the same, yes. However, it is the rituals, methods, and goals of Magick that differ between LaVey's practices and Wiccan practices.

So the source behind the "Magick" of Wicca is the same as LaVey's "power" he receives from Satanism.

I don't believe that these forces care if you do "good" or "bad'. I think that they have one common goal....and are willing to vary it in any way as long as they accomplish the common goal. Besides everyone knows that you attract more flies with honey instead of vinegar.

The problem is that the source of Magick is nature itself, and each of us. It is not a concious entity or deity. We all have Magickal power, just not all choose to (or know how to) access it.

How do you know that it's "nature itself"?

I mean if I were a demon...it would be profitable to get you to believe you were dealing with a force of nature. Heck, in a way it's not even a total lie. Being created beings, they would be forces of nature.

Although these dealing with Magick do seem to have some kind of consciousness that respond to conscious desires. Shim Eun-Ha hears conversations in her head for crying out loud. I for one don't think she's just crazy...I believe her.

I believe her as well.

But as for the demon contention; I know that it is nature itself, because "demons" don't exist. Spiritual energies can be positive or negative, true. But, those energies are a part of nature and draw power from nature, and the All, itself. All power, both positive and negative, flows from the same source.

wormwood · Joined: 25 Sep 2005 Posts: 2341 Location: The P-Brane

Quote: So the source behind the "Magick" of Wicca is the same as LaVey's "power" he receives from Satanism My opinion is not really. Satanists use Chaos, i.e. sex magic, where the ritual culminates in a powerful energetic release of orgasm, the power used is that sexual energy. Wicca= power from the god or the goddess, or from nature. Other traditions, call extra planar entities, some good, some not, and try to exercises control over these beings. Some people commune with dead humans to divine secrets. Some people are scryers, some do tarot, etc etc etc. These all belong to a category or archetype i.e. necromancy= communing with and controlling the dead. So the sources are dependent upon methodology.

John · Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:51 pm Post subject:

UrielsFyre wrote: John wrote: UrielsFyre wrote: John wrote: Quote: The source is the same, yes. However, it is the rituals, methods, and goals of Magick that differ between LaVey's practices and Wiccan practices.

So the source behind the "Magick" of Wicca is the same as LaVey's "power" he receives from Satanism.

I don't believe that these forces care if you do "good" or "bad'. I think that they have one common goal....and are willing to vary it in any way as long as they accomplish the common goal. Besides everyone knows that you attract more flies with honey instead of vinegar.

The problem is that the source of Magick is nature itself, and each of us. It is not a concious entity or deity. We all have Magickal power, just not all choose to (or know how to) access it.

How do you know that it's "nature itself"?

I mean if I were a demon...it would be profitable to get you to believe you were dealing with a force of nature. Heck, in a way it's not even a total lie. Being created beings, they would be forces of nature.

Although these dealing with Magick do seem to have some kind of consciousness that respond to conscious desires. Shim Eun-Ha hears conversations in her head for crying out loud. I for one don't think she's just crazy...I believe her.

I believe her as well.

But as for the demon contention; I know that it is nature itself, because "demons" don't exist. Spiritual energies can be positive or negative, true. But, those energies are a part of nature and draw power from nature, and the All, itself. All power, both positive and negative, flows from the same source.

How do you know that demons don't exist? These spiritual energies have been witnessed to admit to being demons.

I have a test for you. Next time you make contact with some kind of spiritual energy; mention Jesus Christ....just bring up His name and see what happens. If it's just a force of nature..nothing particular should happen by bringing up some dead guy's name.

Kt · Joined: 23 Jan 2006 Posts: 3806

John wrote: UrielsFyre wrote: John wrote: Quote: The source is the same, yes. However, it is the rituals, methods, and goals of Magick that differ between LaVey's practices and Wiccan practices.

So the source behind the "Magick" of Wicca is the same as LaVey's "power" he receives from Satanism.

I don't believe that these forces care if you do "good" or "bad'. I think that they have one common goal....and are willing to vary it in any way as long as they accomplish the common goal. Besides everyone knows that you attract more flies with honey instead of vinegar.

The problem is that the source of Magick is nature itself, and each of us. It is not a concious entity or deity. We all have Magickal power, just not all choose to (or know how to) access it.

How do you know that it's "nature itself"?

I mean if I were a demon...it would be profitable to get you to believe you were dealing with a force of nature. Heck, in a way it's not even a total lie. Being created beings, they would be forces of nature.

Although these dealing with Magick do seem to have some kind of consciousness that respond to conscious desires. Shim Eun-Ha hears conversations in her head for crying out loud. I for one don't think she's just crazy...I believe her.
I havn't seen any proof that the judeo-christian demon is anything more than a fictional being.
And Fyre is right, there are good spirits, and bad spirits. If you are ever in touch with the spirit world, you will see good things, and bad things. This is the nature of things.

George W Bush · Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 6:53 pm Post subject:

wow...you guys are really goin at it.

anyway, the point regarding Satanism and LaVey (or the POINTS, i should say)

if you get the chance, buy the book "Satanic Bible".

anyway, what I got out of it (when I once dabbled) - was the idea that Satan is an archetype - a symbolic gesture to unabashed independence. Free of authority beyond your own.
The actual 'Satan', is the deity who has limitless momentum and can do whatever it chooses. The aspiration is to attain this fulfillment.

The one idea behind LaVeyan Satanism is that it basically says to 'live and let live'. That spills over into not proselytising, not preaching, and not recruiting. The only 'recruiting' that may occur is through the natural selection when someone gravitates towards it through their own free will.

And thats basically what its all about in a nutshell: worship of free will, which stimulates the christian dogma opposing Satan.

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 8466

John wrote:
How do you know that demons don't exist? These spiritual energies have been witnessed to admit to being demons.

I have a test for you. Next time you make contact with some kind of spiritual energy; mention Jesus Christ....just bring up His name and see what happens. If it's just a force of nature..nothing particular should happen by bringing up some dead guy's name.

Already done it. I was in contact with a spirit, mentioned God and Jesus Christ, and the spirit was still there.

Also, whom have the stories of spirits admitting to being demons come from? Have they come from people who follow a religion that believes in demons? If so, it seems likely that their own cultural biases have influenced their perception of the event.

George W Bush · Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:03 pm Post subject:

wormwood wrote:
Do you have anxiety? Do you have trouble sleeping, or dream disturbed sleep? What is your pulse rate? Is your urine dark most of the time? Do your knees ever hurt? Do you have dark circles under your eyes? Do you ever have lower back pain? I know the questions seem arbitrary, but bear with me.

anxiety is a job factor - yes.
sleeping is medically induced :lol: otherwise, there wouldnt be sleep.
dreams can be interesting. especially when you wake up, or so it seems - and theres an intense buzzing noise, you cant move - you try to shout out but cant - severe feeling of insecurity/fear. doctors sarcastically call this "sleep paralysis" - i call it the doors to hell, but whatever. to answer, yes. sometimes dreams are disturbed.
worm, it seems like aura's can carry signatures that give off evidence of ill health. i remember reading about this.
you are onto something, and i ought to get my aura read (among other things)
thanks

Kt · Joined: 23 Jan 2006 Posts: 3806

George W Bush wrote: wormwood wrote:
Do you have anxiety? Do you have trouble sleeping, or dream disturbed sleep? What is your pulse rate? Is your urine dark most of the time? Do your knees ever hurt? Do you have dark circles under your eyes? Do you ever have lower back pain? I know the questions seem arbitrary, but bear with me.

anxiety is a job factor - yes.
sleeping is medically induced :lol: otherwise, there wouldnt be sleep.
dreams can be interesting. especially when you wake up, or so it seems - and theres an intense buzzing noise, you cant move - you try to shout out but cant - severe feeling of insecurity/fear. doctors sarcastically call this "sleep paralysis" - i call it the doors to hell, but whatever. to answer, yes. sometimes dreams are disturbed.
worm, it seems like aura's can carry signatures that give off evidence of ill health. i remember reading about this.
you are onto something, and i ought to get my aura read (among other things)
thanks
Hey this may sound completely unrelated (because it is)

I once had a dream that I met jesus, but he had hundreds of tenticles where his arms should be, and they chased me down a hallway, out of a tall building, onto another rooftop, untill i shot some light out of my palm and vaporized him, it was pretty terrifying.

John · Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:09 pm Post subject:

Quote: Already done it. I was in contact with a spirit, mentioned God and Jesus Christ, and the spirit was still there.

Jesus and God?

Ask who Jesus is; ask who is Yeshua Hamashiach?

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 8466

John wrote: Quote: Already done it. I was in contact with a spirit, mentioned God and Jesus Christ, and the spirit was still there.

Jesus and God?

Ask who Jesus is; ask who is Yeshua Hamashiach?

Yes, I mentioned Jesus and God, with no effect.

Now, I didn't get in to the "Who wants to be a millionaire" round and question the spirit on biblical history, but I doubt that, even if I had, there would have been any effect on its presence.

John · Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:16 pm Post subject:

Quote: Do you have anxiety?

I used to pretty bad. But I haven't all all since I recieved Christ. Seriously...my wife gets pissed at me for being too calm. :lol:

Quote: Do you have trouble sleeping, or dream disturbed sleep?

Not anymore. Sleep like a baby.

Quote: What is your pulse rate?

About 70

Quote: Is your urine dark most of the time?

No, I drink water.

Quote:
Do your knees ever hurt?

No

Quote: Do you have dark circles under your eyes?

hmmm...used to.

Quote: Do you ever have lower back pain?

No....but I have some mid back pain. Lower is great.

John · Posted: Thu Feb 02, 2006 7:16 pm Post subject:

UrielsFyre wrote: John wrote: Quote: Already done it. I was in contact with a spirit, mentioned God and Jesus Christ, and the spirit was still there.

Jesus and God?

Ask who Jesus is; ask who is Yeshua Hamashiach?

Yes, I mentioned Jesus and God, with no effect.

Now, I didn't get in to the "Who wants to be a millionaire" round and question the spirit on biblical history, but I doubt that, even if I had, there would have been any effect on its presence.

What did you say?

If you said Jesus AND God...then you didn't ask about Jesus. Jesus IS God...that's why you need to ask WHO "Jesus" the Christ is.

wormwood · Joined: 25 Sep 2005 Posts: 2341 Location: The P-Brane

Quote: anyway, what I got out of it (when I once dabbled) - was the idea that Satan is an archetype - a symbolic gesture to unabashed independence. Free of authority beyond your own.
The actual 'Satan', is the deity who has limitless momentum and can do whatever it chooses. The aspiration is to attain this fulfillment. That is a perfect summary. 8:)

Quote: anxiety is a job factor - yes.
sleeping is medically induced otherwise, there wouldnt be sleep. Sounds like you might have a kidney yin deficiency. PM me if you want an herbal prescription you can make yourself.

Quote: dreams can be interesting. especially when you wake up, or so it seems - and theres an intense buzzing noise, you cant move - you try to shout out but cant - severe feeling of insecurity/fear. doctors sarcastically call this "sleep paralysis" - i call it the doors to hell, The phenomenon is called a "mara" ...it is where the word nightmare originates. The ancients believed that there was a demon sitting on their chest which was sometimes visible and sometimes not....sometimes it drank blood, and sometimes it fed off fear depending on the legend. It is not a regional phenomenon however, so can not really be attributed to delusional followers of one religion or another.

Quote: worm, it seems like aura's can carry signatures that give off evidence of ill health. i remember reading about this.
you are onto something, and i ought to get my aura read (among other things)
thanks NP. If it is a health issue, it is probably something mild dealing with the kidney, or maybe the gallbladder. If you don't know anything about Chinese medicine, disregard that last line.

Quote: untill i shot some light out of my palm and vaporized him, it was pretty terrifying.
C'mon....who HASN"T had that dream? :lol: :shifty:

Quote: Jesus and God?

Ask who Jesus is; ask who is Yeshua Hamashiach? Gotta give props to John, he knows his command words...he would make a fine demonologist. :twisted:

Quote: I used to pretty bad. But I haven't all all since I recieved Christ. Seriously...my wife gets pissed at me for being too calm. I get pissed at you too, but it isn't for being too calm... :lol:
Seriously though, these questions were to determine if the original poster had issues with kidney health. Sounds like you have fine kidney health John.