Political Crossfire Forums

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 8567

John wrote: UrielsFyre wrote: John wrote: Quote: Already done it. I was in contact with a spirit, mentioned God and Jesus Christ, and the spirit was still there.

Jesus and God?

Ask who Jesus is; ask who is Yeshua Hamashiach?

Yes, I mentioned Jesus and God, with no effect.

Now, I didn't get in to the "Who wants to be a millionaire" round and question the spirit on biblical history, but I doubt that, even if I had, there would have been any effect on its presence.

What did you say?

If you said Jesus AND God...then you didn't ask about Jesus. Jesus IS God...that's why you need to ask WHO "Jesus" the Christ is.

While I certainly don't remember my exact wording, I know that I mentioned God...then later mentioned Jesus Christ. Nothing happened, and I believe nothing ever will.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

John wrote: UrielsFyre wrote: John wrote: Quote: The source is the same, yes. However, it is the rituals, methods, and goals of Magick that differ between LaVey's practices and Wiccan practices.

So the source behind the "Magick" of Wicca is the same as LaVey's "power" he receives from Satanism.

I don't believe that these forces care if you do "good" or "bad'. I think that they have one common goal....and are willing to vary it in any way as long as they accomplish the common goal. Besides everyone knows that you attract more flies with honey instead of vinegar.

The problem is that the source of Magick is nature itself, and each of us. It is not a concious entity or deity. We all have Magickal power, just not all choose to (or know how to) access it.

How do you know that it's "nature itself"?

I mean if I were a demon...it would be profitable to get you to believe you were dealing with a force of nature. Heck, in a way it's not even a total lie. Being created beings, they would be forces of nature.

Although these dealing with Magick do seem to have some kind of consciousness that respond to conscious desires. Shim Eun-Ha hears conversations in her head for crying out loud. I for one don't think she's just crazy...I believe her.

The word Daemon literally means "voices" in Greek.

Kt · Joined: 23 Jan 2006 Posts: 3806

cap'n queasy wrote: John wrote: UrielsFyre wrote: John wrote: Quote: The source is the same, yes. However, it is the rituals, methods, and goals of Magick that differ between LaVey's practices and Wiccan practices.

So the source behind the "Magick" of Wicca is the same as LaVey's "power" he receives from Satanism.

I don't believe that these forces care if you do "good" or "bad'. I think that they have one common goal....and are willing to vary it in any way as long as they accomplish the common goal. Besides everyone knows that you attract more flies with honey instead of vinegar.

The problem is that the source of Magick is nature itself, and each of us. It is not a concious entity or deity. We all have Magickal power, just not all choose to (or know how to) access it.

How do you know that it's "nature itself"?

I mean if I were a demon...it would be profitable to get you to believe you were dealing with a force of nature. Heck, in a way it's not even a total lie. Being created beings, they would be forces of nature.

Although these dealing with Magick do seem to have some kind of consciousness that respond to conscious desires. Shim Eun-Ha hears conversations in her head for crying out loud. I for one don't think she's just crazy...I believe her.

The word Daemon literally means "voices" in Greek.
That really proves nothing more than the word Daemon literally means "voices" in greek.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 22508 Location: Houston

Shim Eun-Ha wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: John wrote: UrielsFyre wrote: John wrote: Quote: The source is the same, yes. However, it is the rituals, methods, and goals of Magick that differ between LaVey's practices and Wiccan practices.

So the source behind the "Magick" of Wicca is the same as LaVey's "power" he receives from Satanism.

I don't believe that these forces care if you do "good" or "bad'. I think that they have one common goal....and are willing to vary it in any way as long as they accomplish the common goal. Besides everyone knows that you attract more flies with honey instead of vinegar.

The problem is that the source of Magick is nature itself, and each of us. It is not a concious entity or deity. We all have Magickal power, just not all choose to (or know how to) access it.

How do you know that it's "nature itself"?

I mean if I were a demon...it would be profitable to get you to believe you were dealing with a force of nature. Heck, in a way it's not even a total lie. Being created beings, they would be forces of nature.

Although these dealing with Magick do seem to have some kind of consciousness that respond to conscious desires. Shim Eun-Ha hears conversations in her head for crying out loud. I for one don't think she's just crazy...I believe her.

The word Daemon literally means "voices" in Greek.
That really proves nothing more than the word Daemon literally means "voices" in greek.

Would it change your mind if you found out these "voices" were in fact really demons?

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

And you are hearing them. Do you accept the alternative, that you are shizophrenic?

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

UrielsFyre wrote: John wrote: UrielsFyre wrote: John wrote: Quote: Already done it. I was in contact with a spirit, mentioned God and Jesus Christ, and the spirit was still there.

Jesus and God?

Ask who Jesus is; ask who is Yeshua Hamashiach?

Yes, I mentioned Jesus and God, with no effect.

Now, I didn't get in to the "Who wants to be a millionaire" round and question the spirit on biblical history, but I doubt that, even if I had, there would have been any effect on its presence.

What did you say?

If you said Jesus AND God...then you didn't ask about Jesus. Jesus IS God...that's why you need to ask WHO "Jesus" the Christ is.

While I certainly don't remember my exact wording, I know that I mentioned God...then later mentioned Jesus Christ. Nothing happened, and I believe nothing ever will.

I don't believe you. There are many former occultist who have come to the Lord because of similar experiments.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 22508 Location: Houston

cap'n queasy wrote: UrielsFyre wrote: John wrote: UrielsFyre wrote: John wrote: Quote: Already done it. I was in contact with a spirit, mentioned God and Jesus Christ, and the spirit was still there.

Jesus and God?

Ask who Jesus is; ask who is Yeshua Hamashiach?

Yes, I mentioned Jesus and God, with no effect.

Now, I didn't get in to the "Who wants to be a millionaire" round and question the spirit on biblical history, but I doubt that, even if I had, there would have been any effect on its presence.

What did you say?

If you said Jesus AND God...then you didn't ask about Jesus. Jesus IS God...that's why you need to ask WHO "Jesus" the Christ is.

While I certainly don't remember my exact wording, I know that I mentioned God...then later mentioned Jesus Christ. Nothing happened, and I believe nothing ever will.

I don't believe you. There are many former occultist who have come to the Lord because similar expiriments.

I doubt a casual, prolly sarcastic mention of Christ will have much of an effect. I think that the demon will have to react to an honest question about the Lord. I think they're tuned into the emotion of the person and know when the question is a threat or not.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Uriel, why don't you try this experiment? Ask these voices how they feel about humanity. I'd love to see the reply.

Quote: I think they're tuned into the emotion of the person and know when the question is a threat or not.
I do too.

Kt · Joined: 23 Jan 2006 Posts: 3806

cap'n queasy wrote: And you are hearing them. Do you accept the alternative, that you are shizophrenic?
You don't understand the difference between the "Mind's Ear" and the Physical Ear, do you...

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

If you are referring to inner dialogue, yes I do. And that is exactly what I mean.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 22508 Location: Houston

Shim Eun-Ha wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: And you are hearing them. Do you accept the alternative, that you are shizophrenic?
You don't understand the difference between the "Mind's Ear" and the Physical Ear, do you...

Of course we do.

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 8567

John wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: UrielsFyre wrote: John wrote: UrielsFyre wrote: John wrote: Quote: Already done it. I was in contact with a spirit, mentioned God and Jesus Christ, and the spirit was still there.

Jesus and God?

Ask who Jesus is; ask who is Yeshua Hamashiach?

Yes, I mentioned Jesus and God, with no effect.

Now, I didn't get in to the "Who wants to be a millionaire" round and question the spirit on biblical history, but I doubt that, even if I had, there would have been any effect on its presence.

What did you say?

If you said Jesus AND God...then you didn't ask about Jesus. Jesus IS God...that's why you need to ask WHO "Jesus" the Christ is.

While I certainly don't remember my exact wording, I know that I mentioned God...then later mentioned Jesus Christ. Nothing happened, and I believe nothing ever will.

I don't believe you. There are many former occultist who have come to the Lord because similar expiriments.

I doubt a casual, prolly sarcastic mention of Christ will have much of an effect. I think that the demon will have to react to an honest question about the Lord. I think they're tuned into the emotion of the person and know when the question is a threat or not.

Perhaps you are correct that emotion plays a part. However, it would never garner an emotional response from me because I do not believe that Jesus was anything more than a mortal man who accomplished great things. I don't ascribe any divine qualities to him.

Likewise, it would stand to reason, that someone who worships an ancient God like Zeus, or Bastet, may cause a reaction by invoking their name. If, as you say, it is all about emotion.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 22508 Location: Houston

Quote: Perhaps you are correct that emotion plays a part. However, it would never garner an emotional response from me because I do not believe that Jesus was anything more than a mortal man who accomplished great things. I don't ascribe any divine qualities to him.

Likewise, it would stand to reason, that someone who worships an ancient God like Zeus, or Bastet, may cause a reaction by invoking their name. If, as you say, it is all about emotion.

I doubt it.

If you were wrong about the whole deal....wouldn't you want to know it? I would.

So just ask the question as if you really want to know the answer and that IF you knew the correct answer you would act accordingly.

Enoch · Joined: 29 Aug 2005 Posts: 8567

John wrote: Quote: Perhaps you are correct that emotion plays a part. However, it would never garner an emotional response from me because I do not believe that Jesus was anything more than a mortal man who accomplished great things. I don't ascribe any divine qualities to him.

Likewise, it would stand to reason, that someone who worships an ancient God like Zeus, or Bastet, may cause a reaction by invoking their name. If, as you say, it is all about emotion.

I doubt it.

If you were wrong about the whole deal....wouldn't you want to know it? I would.

So just ask the question as if you really want to know the answer and that IF you knew the correct answer you would act accordingly.

I could, but it still wouldn't do anything. Most spirits, at least the ones I have had experience with, are just the spirits of those who have passed away.

Sorry, but invoking the name of the Christian god is not going to do anything.

wormwood · Joined: 25 Sep 2005 Posts: 2372 Location: The P-Brane

Quote: While I certainly don't remember my exact wording, I know that I mentioned God...then later mentioned Jesus Christ. Nothing happened, and I believe nothing ever will.

I don't believe you. There are many former occultist who have come to the Lord because of similar experiments. Well I have heard that the power of "true faith" only works if the person using it already has some level of belief. True, many occultists do "see the light", but they were already predisposed to working within the Christian myth, if that makes any sense. I have noticed holy symbols only work if the person holding it gives it power through belief, even if it is subconscious belief. Not to say that the words or symbols don't have power, but the person wielding them has to recognize that power for them to be effective. For example, I know someone who contacts Sumerian deities and he said that most modern banishments do not work on these things, the only thing he found that worked was the lords prayer that he learned at Catholic school. Even though he was not Christian, he did accept many Judeochristian concepts, like the ONE ultimate higher power. Just a thought.

F'losrix · Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 5:14 pm Post subject:

wormwood wrote: Quote: While I certainly don't remember my exact wording, I know that I mentioned God...then later mentioned Jesus Christ. Nothing happened, and I believe nothing ever will.

I don't believe you. There are many former occultist who have come to the Lord because of similar experiments. Well I have heard that the power of "true faith" only works if the person using it already has some level of belief. True, many occultists do "see the light", but they were already predisposed to working within the Christian myth, if that makes any sense. I have noticed holy symbols only work if the person holding it gives it power through belief, even if it is subconscious belief. Not to say that the words or symbols don't have power, but the person wielding them has to recognize that power for them to be effective. For example, I know someone who contacts Sumerian deities and he said that most modern banishments do not work on these things, the only thing he found that worked was the lords prayer that he learned at Catholic school. Even though he was not Christian, he did accept many Judeochristian concepts, like the ONE ultimate higher power. Just a thought.
It think you've found our next thread topic: Do symbols have any power absent someone's belief in what they symbolize? Any chance we can nudge or prod you into setting it up, since you've already put some thought into this?

Kt · Joined: 23 Jan 2006 Posts: 3806

Skeptical Mystic wrote: wormwood wrote: Quote: While I certainly don't remember my exact wording, I know that I mentioned God...then later mentioned Jesus Christ. Nothing happened, and I believe nothing ever will.

I don't believe you. There are many former occultist who have come to the Lord because of similar experiments. Well I have heard that the power of "true faith" only works if the person using it already has some level of belief. True, many occultists do "see the light", but they were already predisposed to working within the Christian myth, if that makes any sense. I have noticed holy symbols only work if the person holding it gives it power through belief, even if it is subconscious belief. Not to say that the words or symbols don't have power, but the person wielding them has to recognize that power for them to be effective. For example, I know someone who contacts Sumerian deities and he said that most modern banishments do not work on these things, the only thing he found that worked was the lords prayer that he learned at Catholic school. Even though he was not Christian, he did accept many Judeochristian concepts, like the ONE ultimate higher power. Just a thought.
It think you've found our next thread topic: Do symbols have any power absent someone's belief in what they symbolize? Any chance we can nudge or prod you into setting it up, since you've already put some thought into this?

Oh that sounds like a fun thread topic

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

wormwood wrote: Quote: While I certainly don't remember my exact wording, I know that I mentioned God...then later mentioned Jesus Christ. Nothing happened, and I believe nothing ever will.

I don't believe you. There are many former occultist who have come to the Lord because of similar experiments. Well I have heard that the power of "true faith" only works if the person using it already has some level of belief. True, many occultists do "see the light", but they were already predisposed to working within the Christian myth, if that makes any sense. I have noticed holy symbols only work if the person holding it gives it power through belief, even if it is subconscious belief. Not to say that the words or symbols don't have power, but the person wielding them has to recognize that power for them to be effective. For example, I know someone who contacts Sumerian deities and he said that most modern banishments do not work on these things, the only thing he found that worked was the lords prayer that he learned at Catholic school. Even though he was not Christian, he did accept many Judeochristian concepts, like the ONE ultimate higher power. Just a thought.

That's from the introduction to the Necronomicon. :lol:

Symbols and words don't have any power in themselves. But these beings know the presence of the Holy Spirit. They will leave if confronted with it.

wormwood · Joined: 25 Sep 2005 Posts: 2372 Location: The P-Brane

Quote: That's from the introduction to the Necronomicon. Which "Necronomicon"...there are like 4 different versions I believe. Also, I am just basing the testimonial part on testimonials and I portrayed it as such. Though another person claiming to use the lord's prayer does appear in the intro to one version (I forget which), that is not the basis of this particular opinion.

Quote: Symbols and words don't have any power in themselves. But these beings know the presence of the Holy Spirit. They will leave if confronted with it. I have heard many things to the contrary of this statement...I will leave it to the other thread for discussion.

F'losrix · Posted: Fri Feb 03, 2006 8:38 pm Post subject:

cap'n queasy wrote: Symbols and words don't have any power in themselves. But these beings know the presence of the Holy Spirit. They will leave if confronted with it.
Well, since the 'Holy Spirit' is a Christian concept, you'll have to forgive us if we find the idea a bit.....strange. If we were speaking about this in the context of Christianity, I'd agree that what you say may be true in the eyes of some interpretations of that faith.

But we aren't talking about this in the context of Christian dogma. We're talking about it in the broad context of pagan ideas, examining the ideas of multiple religions/cultures.

Not that I'm opposed to understanding the Christian viewpont on 'spirits'. I just find it a bit irritating that the Christian viewpoint always gets represented as fact - even when you're posting your ideas in a forum that isn't dedicated to Christianity.