Political Crossfire Forums

[Gryff1nd0r]

Pro-lifers say that an unborn baby has "rights", and its right to life should be protected by the government. Pro-choicers say that an unborn baby is merely and extension of a woman's body, and it is her "right" to do what she will with her body.

My question is this: what do both sides of the issue think about a pregant woman's care for her, and her baby's body (assuming she plans to have the baby)? If the government protects the baby's right to life, then shouldn't it protect the baby's right to be born healthy?

It has been shown that a pregnant woman's smoking, drinking, and drug use can be dangerous to the unborn baby.

Currently, it is a felony in Texas to smoke marijuana while pregnant, resulting in a 2-20 year prison sentence. Some 13 states consider prenatal drug exposure as possible grounds for termination of parental rights.

I am interested to see what pro-lifers think about this. For you pro-choicers, if you don't think a fetus has a right to life, than you probably don't think it has a right to anything else... but maybe you think differently because the woman is directly affecting the health of a soon-to-be person? If the child grows up with problems, can he turn around and sue his mother for something she did to him before he had "rights"?

[Sailor Moon]

I dont think that those laws are enforced unless the unborn child is affected, and in many cases, even a child with fetal alcohol syndrome can remain with its mom..

I would like to hear an account of a pregnant woman in jail for child endangerment as a result of drug use or alcohol use, while being pregnant.

I am pro life, and I think the laws that exist now are just fine, even a bit too much, when it comes to fetal rights.
Women have autonomy, or at least they should have the right to govern their own body, legally (not by using illegal drugs, I mean, but if she drinks she drinks, and thats her choice)

Basically, I think that if someone is doing something that is generally legal, then it shouldnt be a crime to do the same thing while she is pregnant. Thats not fair to women at all.

[Korimyr the Rat]

thegriffinator13 wrote: For you pro-choicers, if you don't think a fetus has a right to life, than you probably don't think it has a right to anything else... but maybe you think differently because the woman is directly affecting the health of a soon-to-be person? If the child grows up with problems, can he turn around and sue his mother for something she did to him before he had "rights"?

Well, I'm not in favor of legal abortions because I think we have to preserve some mythical "right to choose", but because I have absolutely no moral qualms against the practice of abortion. Until someone is both willing and capable of assuming responsibility for a child, they're not a morally defensible person.

I have serious moral objections to a woman who expresses willingness to bear a child to term, and then poisons that child by her own irresponsible behavior. I think it is disgusting and completely morally unacceptable. Unfortunately, like Sailor Moon, I do not believe that we can impose laws against it in a just fashion; it would be tremendously unfair to women and would be practically unenforceable.

It's another one of those things, like drug prohibition, where I consider certain behaviors immoral, but realize that the law cannot address them effectively.

[Gilbert1908]

Korimyr the Rat wrote: thegriffinator13 wrote: For you pro-choicers, if you don't think a fetus has a right to life, than you probably don't think it has a right to anything else... but maybe you think differently because the woman is directly affecting the health of a soon-to-be person? If the child grows up with problems, can he turn around and sue his mother for something she did to him before he had "rights"?

Well, I'm not in favor of legal abortions because I think we have to preserve some mythical "right to choose", but because I have absolutely no moral qualms against the practice of abortion. Until someone is both willing and capable of assuming responsibility for a child, they're not a morally defensible person.

I have serious moral objections to a woman who expresses willingness to bear a child to term, and then poisons that child by her own irresponsible behavior. I think it is disgusting and completely morally unacceptable. Unfortunately, like Sailor Moon, I do not believe that we can impose laws against it in a just fashion; it would be tremendously unfair to women and would be practically unenforceable.

It's another one of those things, like drug prohibition, where I consider certain behaviors immoral, but realize that the law cannot address them effectively.

So then because something which is wrong is difficult to deal with society should just be apathetic to the damage done?

[Sailor Moon]

Well, thats not MY opinion. I think that society should not criminalize women for doing legal things, like jumping off the high dive, etc.. when she is pregnant. Thats her right to jump off a high dive. She might know shes pregnant, but she may not know that it would hurt the baby. She might know it will hurt the baby. Its still her body that is carrying the baby, so basically, the baby is left to chance occurrences.

If a person, say, allowed a woman to drink a beer, and the woman got charged with child endangerment, then the person who was with her should be charged as well.

Now, if a woman doesnt even know shes pregnant, or doesnt know how to treat her body with respect, or whatever, is she automatically a criminal?

Its different when you talk about a born baby. If a woman does not know how to treat a born baby, and neglects it or what have you, then that is a criminal offense. But not knowing how to treat your own body should not be criminalized, regardless of whether the life inside is harmed or not.

Yes it is sad, yes it is wrong, and yes it makes me sick, but autonomy is autonomy.

If you were to say that we should criminalize any acts of autonomy that are harmful, or even considered harmful, then women would have to be pretty much stuck at home, on bed rest, and at most WALK on a treadmill for exercise, with a highly limited variety of substances to consume in her home. Very very exploitative of women.

I mean, pineapples can cause abortion. Are we going to outlaw pineapples?

Probably not.

Are we going to make laws that say that women cannot ever jump off the diving board, or drive, or fly in planes for protection in case of pregnancy? No.

Its not to say that society should just shrug these things off, though, if women were killing their unborn babies this way on purpose.. but they just shouldnt be criminalized. Theres also a thin line with society in figuring out the difference between "on purpose" and "on accident". Thats the main reason it shouldnt be criminalized. Someone who is hell bent on sticking a woman in jail after seeing her dead 16 week fetus in the toilet may not take the time to find out that this woman just had an accidental miscarriage. Then, not only does the woman have to grieve for her child, but she has to deal with facing charges as well.

Totally unfair.

[Korimyr the Rat]

Gilbert1908 wrote: So then because something which is wrong is difficult to deal with society should just be apathetic to the damage done?

No, but it does mean that we shouldn't automatically prohibit them and assume that will solve the problem.

Our society and our government both have access to tools other than the criminal justice system. If the criminal justice system does not prove to be an effective tool-- as it hasn't been for alcoholism, drug abuse, prostitution, or abortion-- we should quit misapplying it and try to find another, more effective, means to solve the problem.

[Gryff1nd0r]

sailor moon wrote:
I would like to hear an account of a pregnant woman in jail for child endangerment as a result of drug use or alcohol use, while being pregnant.

I don't know to what extent those laws have been used, but I just know that those are the laws. I will look it up though.

sailor moon wrote: Basically, I think that if someone is doing something that is generally legal, then it shouldnt be a crime to do the same thing while she is pregnant. Thats not fair to women at all.

But it isn't fair to fetuses either, is it? Personally, I would rather not be born than be born with serious medical complications, but nobody asked me when I was a fetus. Unless you think that a fetus is not a life with rights, than you have to be fair and take into account how a woman is affecting her fetus with what she does with HER body.

It makes sense to me that if someone supports life, and believes that an unborn baby has the right to life, than that person should also support enforcement of proper prenatal care of that child. Otherwise, if a mother is not willing to care for herself (and therefore her unborn child) than it would be better to just allow her to have an abortion rather than birth a child that may have serious disorders, or die shortly after birth, possibly because of prematurity? If the child must be born, than shouldn't it be born healthy?

And should a child that grows up with disorders because of prenatal substance abuse be able to turn around and file a lawsuit against his mother?

sailor moon wrote: Well, thats not MY opinion. I think that society should not criminalize women for doing legal things, like jumping off the high dive, etc.. when she is pregnant. Thats her right to jump off a high dive. She might know shes pregnant, but she may not know that it would hurt the baby. She might know it will hurt the baby. Its still her body that is carrying the baby, so basically, the baby is left to chance occurrences.

But let us say that hypothetically, the law DID enforce healthy prenatal care. The government would make sure than that women are well-informed, and would also implement laws that make warning signs mandatory, and a woman can be charged for ignoring the warnings and endangering her child. For example, smoking is perfectly legal, but it is illegal in an airplane lavatory. A man may not "know" this, but he will still be charged because there is a big red sign on the door of the lavatory saying "it is a criminal offense to smoke in an airplane lavatory".

sailor moon wrote: If a person, say, allowed a woman to drink a beer, and the woman got charged with child endangerment, then the person who was with her should be charged as well.

No, it is just like underage drinking. It is illegal to SELL to underage drinkers.

sailor moon wrote: Now, if a woman doesnt even know shes pregnant, or doesnt know how to treat her body with respect, or whatever, is she automatically a criminal?

Again, only if the proper warnings were not in place, and if it cannot shown that she knew she was harming the baby.

sailor moon wrote: If you were to say that we should criminalize any acts of autonomy that are harmful, or even considered harmful, then women would have to be pretty much stuck at home, on bed rest, and at most WALK on a treadmill for exercise, with a highly limited variety of substances to consume in her home. Very very exploitative of women.

No, I am only using examples of serious substance abuse that has been proven to have serious if not deadly health effects on unborn babies. It must be scientifically proven, and it must be high-risk. It is the same as with grown children... it is unhealthy to let your child drink soda with every meal, but it is not illegal. However, taking risks that may quite possibly have serious consequences, such as driving with a small child without a child saftey seat, or leaving a loaded gun within reach of a child, CAN be charged as criminal offenses.

Gilbert1908 wrote:
So then because something which is wrong is difficult to deal with society should just be apathetic to the damage done?

If that is the case then ABORTION should be legal, end of story. Forget about enforcing healthy prenatal care.

Korimyr the Rat wrote: Our society and our government both have access to tools other than the criminal justice system. If the criminal justice system does not prove to be an effective tool-- as it hasn't been for alcoholism, drug abuse, prostitution, or abortion-- we should quit misapplying it and try to find another, more effective, means to solve the problem.

I just want to make it clear that the issue here is not how to effectively solve the problem of neglectful prenatal care... that is not a major problem that you hear people complaining about.

I just want to hear, mainly from pro-lifers, how far they think a fetus's rights go... if it has the right to life, and it is NOT just property of a woman, than it should have other rights too, and a woman should be charged if she violates the fetus's rights. It seems hipocritical that a woman should be forced to have a baby, but not to care for it properly in the womb.

[Sailor Moon]

thegriffinator13 wrote: sailor moon wrote:
I would like to hear an account of a pregnant woman in jail for child endangerment as a result of drug use or alcohol use, while being pregnant.

I don't know to what extent those laws have been used, but I just know that those are the laws. I will look it up though.

Thanks.

Quote: sailor moon wrote: Basically, I think that if someone is doing something that is generally legal, then it shouldnt be a crime to do the same thing while she is pregnant. Thats not fair to women at all.

But it isn't fair to fetuses either, is it? Personally, I would rather not be born than be born with serious medical complications, but nobody asked me when I was a fetus. Unless you think that a fetus is not a life with rights, than you have to be fair and take into account how a woman is affecting her fetus with what she does with HER body.

Sure she is affecting the fetus. Thats the "chance" part you cant ignore. Many things are left to chance. Its ridiculous to put a woman in jail for accidentally harming her fetus. If fetuses all had rights, or all of the unborn had this explicit right to life, then all miscarriages that were a result of some "chance occurrence", and all birth defected fetuses that were born because the woman even conceived in the first place resulted in the woman serving time in prison- its exploitative of women. One has to accept that they spend their time in the womb as a chance at life. To make abortion illegal GREATLY increases the chance at a good life.

I was born with serious medical complications. That was 1977. Thank goodness for modern medicine, because even back then, they figured out what was wrong with me, and fixed it. I have had a great life. Medical problems do not always result from illegal activities. smoking causes birth defects. We dont send women to jail for smoking during pregnancy. I had a birth defect, and although my mom smoked during her pregnancy with me, I thank God she didnt spend time in jail for my birth defect. It would be ridiculous to do that, since so many things are left to chance. In fact, my sisters daughter (my niece) has a similar defect, and my sister never smoked. Its a good thing that people can accept chance as a factor in pregnancy.

Quote: It makes sense to me that if someone supports life, and believes that an unborn baby has the right to life, than that person should also support enforcement of proper prenatal care of that child. Otherwise, if a mother is not willing to care for herself (and therefore her unborn child) than it would be better to just allow her to have an abortion rather than birth a child that may have serious disorders, or die shortly after birth, possibly because of prematurity? If the child must be born, than shouldn't it be born healthy?

I DO support better prenatal care. In fact, I believe that with the already ridiculously high taxes we are paying now, we should have a national health care program thats well established. Either that or do away with income taxes completely... I also think that taxpayers shouldnt be putting more of their checks into abortion, but into better prenatal care, and programs for uninsured pregnant women.

Quote: And should a child that grows up with disorders because of prenatal substance abuse be able to turn around and file a lawsuit against his mother?

Nope. I was born that way. I had a great mom who smoked, and my defect had nothing to do with her smoking. How ridiculous to say something like that!! Lets just tear families apart, shall we now? Parents who drink and smoke, legal things to do, while pregnant, are still loking forard to loving their child. I am now sure you dont have kids. When you do, you will learn what unconditional love is, and probably finally feel guilty for hating your parents so much, or encouraging others to do so.

Quote: sailor moon wrote: Well, thats not MY opinion. I think that society should not criminalize women for doing legal things, like jumping off the high dive, etc.. when she is pregnant. Thats her right to jump off a high dive. She might know shes pregnant, but she may not know that it would hurt the baby. She might know it will hurt the baby. Its still her body that is carrying the baby, so basically, the baby is left to chance occurrences.

But let us say that hypothetically, the law DID enforce healthy prenatal care. The government would make sure than that women are well-informed, and would also implement laws that make warning signs mandatory, and a woman can be charged for ignoring the warnings and endangering her child. For example, smoking is perfectly legal, but it is illegal in an airplane lavatory. A man may not "know" this, but he will still be charged because there is a big red sign on the door of the lavatory saying "it is a criminal offense to smoke in an airplane lavatory".

Think about it! You will see signs all over the place, on every inch of everything! Nothing will be left to chance, and the idea of a chance occurrence happening will become nill. A woman wont be able to drive or ride in a vehicle to work, because there is a chance that she could be in an accident! Women who are pregnant will be shunned from the workplace, especially if they are pregnant, and placed back in sewing and typing pools, where they are safe.

STOP being so PATERNAL to woman! Women have rights. The right to govern their own bodies, even if they are pregnant. This is something you MUST accept. Yes, women will miscarry. People will make bad choices. They will also learn from them. Yes hopefully there will be massive advertising out on good prenatal care... But there might not be.

Its a chance I am willing to take. Not all fetuses live 9 months in the womb. Some will die. Some will even be born alive and die soom after. Pregnancy is risky, and the biggest threat to the fetus is the condition of the womans body. If she doesnt know how to take care of her body, or doesnt have the resources to do so, there is no need to prosecute her for that. After all, she might (chance, remember) take superb care of her body and have constant miscarriages. Some women can have babies, some cannot. Thats life. Deal with it.

Quote: sailor moon wrote: If a person, say, allowed a woman to drink a beer, and the woman got charged with child endangerment, then the person who was with her should be charged as well.

No, it is just like underage drinking. It is illegal to SELL to underage drinkers.

It is NOT illegal to SELL to pregnant women!!! And FYI- drinking during pregnancy is not all that friggin dangerous, as long as its done in moderation. What are you gonna do? Sens women to jail because they have a glass of wine while pregnant??? GOD!!!! Dont do that!!!! Thats just abusive to WOMEN.

Quote: sailor moon wrote: Now, if a woman doesnt even know shes pregnant, or doesnt know how to treat her body with respect, or whatever, is she automatically a criminal?

Again, only if the proper warnings were not in place, and if it cannot shown that she knew she was harming the baby.

Yet you want birth control to be widely available OTC, I assume? Maybe not, but anyways, the point being- even a person on birth control might not find out shes pregnant till shes showing, which, in some cases can take 5 months or longer. What about women who are anorexic? They dont even get periods! So if they get hospitalized for anorexia, they are automatically found out to be pregnant. Gosh! Is that all that bulge in the tummy was? And here she thought she was getting "fat"...

Chance is something we all have to deal with. I hope I have described this accurately to you.

Quote: sailor moon wrote: If you were to say that we should criminalize any acts of autonomy that are harmful, or even considered harmful, then women would have to be pretty much stuck at home, on bed rest, and at most WALK on a treadmill for exercise, with a highly limited variety of substances to consume in her home. Very very exploitative of women.

No, I am only using examples of serious substance abuse that has been proven to have serious if not deadly health effects on unborn babies. It must be scientifically proven, and it must be high-risk. It is the same as with grown children... it is unhealthy to let your child drink soda with every meal, but it is not illegal. However, taking risks that may quite possibly have serious consequences, such as driving with a small child without a child saftey seat, or leaving a loaded gun within reach of a child, CAN be charged as criminal offenses.

Sure they CAN be.. on a BORN child. And if a man hits a woman, that gets charged as a criminal offense too. But lets face it. Babies are rarely injured when their moms are hit by men (even though I dont advocate this behavior) just as babies are rarely injured when their mom smokes cigarettes or drinks wine.

There is alot to chance that has yet to be seen by you. Some things are just genetic. Some things just happen for no apparent reason. It would not be fair to charge a mother with something that was actually genetic, or happened by chance. It is not fair to charge women with homicide, if the abortion was caused by accidental occurence, by the woman governing her own body the way she sees fit.

Quote: I just want to hear, mainly from pro-lifers, how far they think a fetus's rights go... if it has the right to life, and it is NOT just property of a woman, than it should have other rights too, and a woman should be charged if she violates the fetus's rights. It seems hipocritical that a woman should be forced to have a baby, but not to care for it properly in the womb.

Nobody forces a pregnant woman to have a live baby. It happens naturally. That is semantics. There is forced death with abortion, and the same basic thing happens as in child birth- the uterus is opened (but with force) and the fetus is destroyed before removal.

It may not be the property of the woman, I agree- but the body that is the vessel for that baby, is her property. That is the body she has autonomy over, and full autonomy indeed. That is where life is left to chance. If she wants to treat her own body with disrespect, who am I to put her in jail for it? Its HER body! The baby isnt a part of her body, of course, but it is inside her own body, therefore the baby has a chance that the woman either wont take care of her body, or will be injured in such a way that the baby loses its life. Thats just too bad. I am so sick of this bleeding heart crap that puts a fetus above a woman who carries it. The fetus has NO chance at life, if the woman falls out of a tree in th middle of a forest, and breaks her neck and dies. That is life. The fetus's life completely revolves around the chance events surrounding the woman who carries it.

[Gryff1nd0r]

things I need to make clear:

1) I understand that accidents shouldn't count. It is outright, knowing, willing, negligence that I am talking about.

2) I do NOT want the government to force women to maintain their bodies in a certain way to keep a fetus healthy.

3) I only want to hear pro-lifers' arguments, because if a fetus has the right to life (at the expense of the mother's control of her body) than it should have other rights that override the woman's rights. When you consider what that means, it seems ridiculous to give a fetus rights that override the woman's rights, doesn't it?



Now, where do you draw the line at an "unnatural" abortion? If a woman purposefully engages in activities that she thinks will cause a miscarraige, but she doesn't actually go to a doctor and have an operation, is that illegal "forced" abortion, or is it "natural", and thus should be legal? (we are assuming that this woman WANTS the fetus to abort)

[Sailor Moon]

I am pro life, and we have discussed this already.

Even if she does something that causes a spontaneous miscarriage, she cant be prosecuted for inducing abortion, because she has autonomy on her side.


I am against abortion altogether, but the only abortion that can be made illegal AND ENFORCED is the assisted kind. Everything else is autonomous. It s*cks ass, but thats just how it is.

[steen]

Sailor Moon wrote: I was born with serious medical complications. That was 1977. Thank goodness for modern medicine, because even back then, they figured out what was wrong with me, and fixed it. I have had a great life. This is weird. You praise modern medicine, but then rant and rave against it, saying that women should put their lives at risk through self-induced abortions rather than getting this modern medical care that you yourself benefited from. It seems crazy AND hypocritical.

Quote: I DO support better prenatal care. In fact, I believe that with the already ridiculously high taxes we are paying now, we should have a national health care program thats well established. Weeheeee. Historical moment. I agree with Sailor Moon.



Quote: STOP being so PATERNAL to woman! Women have rights. The right to govern their own bodies, even if they are pregnant. This is something you MUST accept. Yes, women will miscarry. People will make bad choices. They will also learn from them. Yes hopefully there will be massive advertising out on good prenatal care... But there might not be. OK, who are you, and what did you do with sailor moon? hacked her account? because now you are making her out to be pro-choice. That simply can't be true.

[Sailor Moon]

steen wrote: Sailor Moon wrote: I was born with serious medical complications. That was 1977. Thank goodness for modern medicine, because even back then, they figured out what was wrong with me, and fixed it. I have had a great life. This is weird. You praise modern medicine, but then rant and rave against it, saying that women should put their lives at risk through self-induced abortions rather than getting this modern medical care that you yourself benefited from. It seems crazy AND hypocritical.

First of all, I didnt benefit at all from my abortion. It was not safe, and I did end up with several of the listed risks of abortion, as a result. I benefited nada. Dont call me crazy. Stop youre name calling. I am reporting every abusive, flaming, and trolling post you make on here.

Quote: Quote: I DO support better prenatal care. In fact, I believe that with the already ridiculously high taxes we are paying now, we should have a national health care program thats well established. Weeheeee. Historical moment. I agree with Sailor Moon.

I really dont have any respect for you, so I dont care what you agree with, either way.

Quote: Quote: STOP being so PATERNAL to woman! Women have rights. The right to govern their own bodies, even if they are pregnant. This is something you MUST accept. Yes, women will miscarry. People will make bad choices. They will also learn from them. Yes hopefully there will be massive advertising out on good prenatal care... But there might not be. OK, who are you, and what did you do with sailor moon? hacked her account? because now you are making her out to be pro-choice. That simply can't be true.

Pro womens rights is not the exact same thing as pro choice. And women need to know that they have the right to do with their bodies as the choose, even when abortion is illegal. And women need to know the risks to abortion, although so many paternal pro choicers refuse to allow this informed consent in clinics, which is where the "paternal" crap comes from. Not only that, but trying to protect women from themselves.

Newsflash! Women still have illegal abortions! They will have abortions even when its illegal. Take comfort in knowing it is quite safe to do this, though.

And- What? So, only pro choice people are pro womens rights????

What a crock.

[steen]

Sailor Moon wrote: steen wrote: Sailor Moon wrote: I was born with serious medical complications. That was 1977. Thank goodness for modern medicine, because even back then, they figured out what was wrong with me, and fixed it. I have had a great life. This is weird. You praise modern medicine, but then rant and rave against it, saying that women should put their lives at risk through self-induced abortions rather than getting this modern medical care that you yourself benefited from. It seems crazy AND hypocritical. First of all, I didnt benefit at all from my abortion. But you DID benefit from modern medical care when you were born!

Quote: It was not safe, and I did end up with several of the listed risks of abortion, as a result. I benefited nada. You are alive today rather than dying in infancy because you benefited from the safe modern medicine. Didn't you read what I posted?

Quote: Dont call me crazy. I didn't.

Quote: Stop youre name calling. I am reporting every abusive, flaming, and trolling post you make on here. Please stop your false accusations against me. It is very impolite to lie about other posters, such as to accuse them of posting something they didn't.

Quote: Quote: Quote: I DO support better prenatal care. In fact, I believe that with the already ridiculously high taxes we are paying now, we should have a national health care program thats well established. Weeheeee. Historical moment. I agree with Sailor Moon. I really dont have any respect for you, so I dont care what you agree with, either way. :cry: :ouch: :cry1: :bnghd:

Quote: Quote: Quote: STOP being so PATERNAL to woman! Women have rights. The right to govern their own bodies, even if they are pregnant. This is something you MUST accept. Yes, women will miscarry. People will make bad choices. They will also learn from them. Yes hopefully there will be massive advertising out on good prenatal care... But there might not be. OK, who are you, and what did you do with sailor moon? hacked her account? because now you are making her out to be pro-choice. That simply can't be true. Pro womens rights is not the exact same thing as pro choice. Pro-choice is the idea that women have the right to control their own bodies, their own lives, that they are not subject to others running their lives. Certainly, insisting that women have the right to govern their own bodies when they are pregnant is a VERY pro-choice point of view.

Quote: And women need to know that they have the right to do with their bodies as the choose, even when abortion is illegal. Exactly. regardless of legality, women will take control of their own bodies, not letting the State or pro-life fundie theocrats enslave them.

Quote: And women need to know the risks to abortion, Sure, minimal as they are, especially as compared to giving birth, which is many times more dangerous.

Quote: although so many paternal pro choicers refuse to allow this informed consent in clinics, which is where the "paternal" crap comes from. Hmm, fascinating just because I say so" false accusation. I noticed that you "forgot" to include any proof.

Quote: Not only that, but trying to protect women from themselves. So by giving women more freedom to chose what happens with their bodies and their lives, we are somehow harming them. That again seems crazy (And yes, again, I am merely noting that your argument sounds crazy, just so that when you start accusing me of calling you crazy, you simply are wrong).

Quote: Newsflash! Women still have illegal abortions! They will have abortions even when its illegal. Take comfort in knowing it is quite safe to do this, though. So you claim, and have claimed numerous times. Yes, you praise modern medicine and then say that women are better off without it. Once again, your argument sounds crazy and hypocritical.

Quote: And- What? So, only pro choice people are pro womens rights????

What a crock. Not really. Pro-choice favors allowing women to control their own lives, giving women more self-determination and choices in life, while pro-lifers seek to enslave and oppress women. Surely, the later is NOT an example of supporting women's rights.

[Sailor Moon]

steen wrote: Sailor Moon wrote: steen wrote: Sailor Moon wrote: I was born with serious medical complications. That was 1977. Thank goodness for modern medicine, because even back then, they figured out what was wrong with me, and fixed it. I have had a great life. This is weird. You praise modern medicine, but then rant and rave against it, saying that women should put their lives at risk through self-induced abortions rather than getting this modern medical care that you yourself benefited from. It seems crazy AND hypocritical. First of all, I didnt benefit at all from my abortion. But you DID benefit from modern medical care when you were born!

And modern medical care is just as available to women who get illegal abortions. In fact, probably MORE available. Antibiotics came about in the 40s. Thats what saved so many women. THAT is modern medicine. Not surgical abortion.

Quote: Quote: It was not safe, and I did end up with several of the listed risks of abortion, as a result. I benefited nada. You are alive today rather than dying in infancy because you benefited from the safe modern medicine. Didn't you read what I posted?

Dude, youre not even making sense. Why do you keep jumping around like this, rather than sticking to the topic?

Quote: Quote: Dont call me crazy. I didn't.

Did too.. :roll: how childish this is.

Quote:
Quote: Stop youre name calling. I am reporting every abusive, flaming, and trolling post you make on here. Please stop your false accusations against me. It is very impolite to lie about other posters, such as to accuse them of posting something they didn't.

All you do is flame and troll. Mark my words, I am reporting this post also. You just called me a liar. I am not a liar. I do not have to defent the truthfulness of my posts to you. I have yet to see even one link from you, or opinion that is topic related rather than just attacking the other member.

Quote:

Quote: Quote: Quote: STOP being so PATERNAL to woman! Women have rights. The right to govern their own bodies, even if they are pregnant. This is something you MUST accept. Yes, women will miscarry. People will make bad choices. They will also learn from them. Yes hopefully there will be massive advertising out on good prenatal care... But there might not be. OK, who are you, and what did you do with sailor moon? hacked her account? because now you are making her out to be pro-choice. That simply can't be true. Pro womens rights is not the exact same thing as pro choice. Pro-choice is the idea that women have the right to control their own bodies, their own lives, that they are not subject to others running their lives. Certainly, insisting that women have the right to govern their own bodies when they are pregnant is a VERY pro-choice point of view.


No its a pro womens rights point of view. I am sick of this bickering. Can you please discuss the topic, and stop coming in here and attacking PEOPLE????
You TROLL!


Quote:
Quote: And women need to know the risks to abortion, Sure, minimal as they are, especially as compared to giving birth, which is many times more dangerous.

Nope. its not. The only time childbirth is dangerous, is when the woman has not gotten proper prenatal care, or when a previous abortion or genetic risk afflicts her. The same can be said about abortion. If you go and get an abortion from a clinic that is not incredibly prestigious, you are putting yourself at high risk for complications. Therefore, not seeking proper abortive care leads to complications. Many women dont even get their follow ups.

Quote: Quote: although so many paternal pro choicers refuse to allow this informed consent in clinics, which is where the "paternal" crap comes from. Hmm, fascinating just because I say so" false accusation. I noticed that you "forgot" to include any proof.

You need proof because you never heard of the "parental consent" battle? You never heard of the "breast cancer informed risk" battle", you never heard of ANY of the known and proven risks, and the informing women of them, being battled off by the paternal left? CUT YOUR APRON STRINGS, CAUSE JUST AS YOU WANT THE CHOICE TO REMAIN, THE HONESTY OF INFORMING WOMEN OF THEIR RISKS WILL NEVER GO AWAY COMPLETELY. If you would prefer women to suffer and die in silence, not knowing that abortion could cuse so many problems for them, just because you dont want them to be "afraid".. then THAT is a paternal attitude! We are not children. We do not NEED your thumbs up to make our decisions, or what kind of information we need. We need ALL information available. Not just the crap paternal folks approve of.

Quote: Quote: Not only that, but trying to protect women from themselves. So by giving women more freedom to chose what happens with their bodies and their lives, we are somehow harming them. That again seems crazy (And yes, again, I am merely noting that your argument sounds crazy, just so that when you start accusing me of calling you crazy, you simply are wrong).

Is that all you got? Just attack my argument, without countering it with anything useful? Way to TROLL.
Quote:
Quote: Newsflash! Women still have illegal abortions! They will have abortions even when its illegal. Take comfort in knowing it is quite safe to do this, though. So you claim, and have claimed numerous times. Yes, you praise modern medicine and then say that women are better off without it. Once again, your argument sounds crazy and hypocritical.

And he does it again! Steen, you have added absolutely nothing to this debate. You should try adding something constructive and useful for once, rather than being a coward and just attacking the person, actually try debating.

Quote: Quote: And- What? So, only pro choice people are pro womens rights????

What a crock. Not really. Pro-choice favors allowing women to control their own lives, giving women more self-determination and choices in life, while pro-lifers seek to enslave and oppress women. Surely, the later is NOT an example of supporting women's rights.

The "later"????

Actually, you can go ahead and attack all you want. The more you do, the faster youre butt will be banned.

[Thrilla]

stop the trolling and personal attacks.. or I WILL

thanks!

Thrilla

[steen]

Sailor Moon wrote: steen wrote: Sailor Moon wrote: steen wrote: Sailor Moon wrote: I was born with serious medical complications. That was 1977. Thank goodness for modern medicine, because even back then, they figured out what was wrong with me, and fixed it. I have had a great life. This is weird. You praise modern medicine, but then rant and rave against it, saying that women should put their lives at risk through self-induced abortions rather than getting this modern medical care that you yourself benefited from. It seems crazy AND hypocritical. First of all, I didnt benefit at all from my abortion. But you DID benefit from modern medical care when you were born!

And modern medical care is just as available to women who get illegal abortions. In fact, probably MORE available. Antibiotics came about in the 40s. Thats what saved so many women. THAT is modern medicine. Not surgical abortion. Modern medicine is anything that treats unwanted conditions.

Quote: Quote: Quote: It was not safe, and I did end up with several of the listed risks of abortion, as a result. I benefited nada. You are alive today rather than dying in infancy because you benefited from the safe modern medicine. Didn't you read what I posted?
Dude, youre not even making sense. Why do you keep jumping around like this, rather than sticking to the topic? I pointed out that you benefited from modern medicine when you were born, and now you argue against modern medicine, claiming that women should obtain illegal abortions instead.

Quote: Quote: Quote: Dont call me crazy. I didn't. Did too.. :roll: how childish this is. I stated that your argument sounded crazy. I disagreed with your argument. I did not call you crazy, so stop the misrepresentation.

Quote: Quote: Quote: Stop youre name calling. I am reporting every abusive, flaming, and trolling post you make on here. Please stop your false accusations against me. It is very impolite to lie about other posters, such as to accuse them of posting something they didn't.
All you do is flame and troll. Mark my words, I am reporting this post also. You just called me a liar. Yeah, whatever. Your claim about me was false as I just showed. I did not lie. Are we don;e with this stuff yet?

Quote: I am not a liar. I do not have to defent the truthfulness of my posts to you. I have yet to see even one link from you, or opinion that is topic related rather than just attacking the other member. You made the accusation that I had called you crazy when I had done no such thing.

Quote: Quote: Pro-choice is the idea that women have the right to control their own bodies, their own lives, that they are not subject to others running their lives. Certainly, insisting that women have the right to govern their own bodies when they are pregnant is a VERY pro-choice point of view. No its a pro womens rights point of view. I am sick of this bickering. Can you please discuss the topic, and stop coming in here and attacking PEOPLE????
You TROLL! I am disagreeing with you. How is that an attack or trolling?

Quote: Quote: Quote: And women need to know the risks to abortion, Sure, minimal as they are, especially as compared to giving birth, which is many times more dangerous. Nope. its not. Death from abortions yearly runs about 3-12 women for around 1 mill abortions. Death from pregnancy and delivery complications run about 300-500 women for around 4.5 mill births.

CDC has the data:
http://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/Products&Pubs/DatatoAction/pdf/rhow11.pdf
Each year, 300–500 pregnancy-related deaths* are reported in the United States.

See the table at page 11 of that source (For the abortion section, both induced and spontaneous abortions are included, BTW)

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5202a1.htm#tab3
Shows induced AND spontaneous abortions to be 4% of total maternal mortality. And induced, of course, includes both elective and medical emergency abortions. Sure is a far cry from claiming that abortion is as dangerous or more dangerous than giving birth.

Quote: The only time childbirth is dangerous, is when the woman has not gotten proper prenatal care, or when a previous abortion or genetic risk afflicts her. This is false. Ecclampsia, hemorrhages, DIC etc kills a lot of women who have good prenatal care and who have never had an abortion. Please provide the evidence for your claim.

Quote: The same can be said about abortion. If you go and get an abortion from a clinic that is not incredibly prestigious, you are putting yourself at high risk for complications. Therefore, not seeking proper abortive care leads to complications. Many women dont even get their follow ups. Another "just because I say so" claim. You have absolutely no evidence, it is pure speculation.

Quote: Quote: Quote: although so many paternal pro choicers refuse to allow this informed consent in clinics, which is where the "paternal" crap comes from. Hmm, fascinating just because I say so" false accusation. I noticed that you "forgot" to include any proof.
You need proof because you never heard of the "parental consent" battle? Nope, I need proof of your claim about the clinics and informed consent.

Quote: You never heard of the "breast cancer informed risk" battle", Your claim is false. I have heard of it, and I provided documentation that there is no connection at all between abortion and breast cancer. That was long ago dealt with in its own tread. If you still have arguments about he pro-life misrepresentations and false claims of a proposed link between abortion and breast cancer in the face of solid and unequivocal evidence to the contrary, why don't you go back to that tread and restate your claim?

Quote: you never heard of ANY of the known and proven risks, I have hard of the risks that are known and proven, and I have heard you make all sorts of OTHER claims that are not proven, and for which you have provided no documentation.

So what is your point here?

Quote: and the informing women of them, being battled off by the paternal left? Your point simply doesn't make sense. "Paternal left"?

Quote: CUT YOUR APRON STRINGS, CAUSE JUST AS YOU WANT THE CHOICE TO REMAIN, THE HONESTY OF INFORMING WOMEN OF THEIR RISKS WILL NEVER GO AWAY COMPLETELY. Absolutely. Women need informed consent about known, scientifically evidenced risks. They should not be exposed to pro-life scare mongering falsehoods misrepresented as "facts."

Quote: If you would prefer women to suffer and die in silence, not knowing that abortion could cuse so many problems for them, just because you dont want them to be "afraid".. then THAT is a paternal attitude! I hold no such attitude, your misrepresentation of medical facts none withstanding.

Quote: We are not children. We do not NEED your thumbs up to make our decisions, or what kind of information we need. Exactly. When women have all the factual information, they are better able to control their own life. As I said, that is a very pro-choice position to take.

Quote: We need ALL information available. Not just the crap paternal folks approve of. But do not need outright lies and misrepresentations that pro-life literature and legislators so often try to push on women in a very paternalistic attitude of trying to make women chose as these paternalistic fundies are trying to deceive them into choosing

Quote: Quote: Quote: Newsflash! Women still have illegal abortions! They will have abortions even when its illegal. Take comfort in knowing it is quite safe to do this, though. So you claim, and have claimed numerous times. Yes, you praise modern medicine and then say that women are better off without it. Once again, your argument sounds crazy and hypocritical. And he does it again! Steen, you have added absolutely nothing to this debate. I have pointed out that your argument is illogical and doesn't make sense; that you have argued that modern medicine is important, but at the same time you think that women who seek abortions should not use modern medicine, instead obtaining illegal abortions because you feel these somehow are "better" for women.

Yes, that still doesn't make sense.

Quote: You should try adding something constructive and useful for once, rather than being a coward and just attacking the person, actually try debating. I was debating your argument, and I was pointing out that it was illogical. I did not attack "the person."

Quote: Actually, you can go ahead and attack all you want. The more you do, the faster youre butt will be banned. Huh? Why do you persist in claiming that I attack you when I merely disagree with your argument? That ALSO doesn't make any sense.

[Sailor Moon]

See Thrillas post, as well as Heynows PM to you, in regards to the trolling.

Furthermore, illegal abortion is safer. How many people died from legal and illegal abortion in 1973? How many people have illegal abortions now?

Go do some research. Dins news articles about women who are hit, and lose their babies. Show me how many of them die. Show me how many women die from illegally induced miscarriage every year. Show me. You cant because the number is ZERO.

Furthermore, in the "pregnancy related deaths" department, the CDC is obviously saying "pregnancy related" and not "full term pregnancy related" or "non abortion related pregnancy". The numbers are astonishing as to how many women die after abortion. The CDC misrepresents the number of women who die during pregnancy by natural causes by not differentiating this in their mortality rates. Ectopic pregnancy, placenta previa, and other conditions, which are risks of abortion, cause women to die, also.

Hey did you know that only 12% of ObGYN programs teach abortion?

I can assure you, this isnt something most ObGyns know the first thing about.

Also, you need to read this page:

http://www.prolifeaction.org/providers/davis.htm

Theres more too! Check out these providers stories:

http://www.prolifeaction.org/providers/

[Gryff1nd0r]

Sailor Moon wrote:

http://www.prolifeaction.org/providers/davis.htm



:? That seems like a good argument for why abortions should be legal, because then those women would not have put themselves in the hands of those crooks. If they are going to do it anyway, shouldn't it be safe?

[Sailor Moon]

You didnt read any other stories? There are quite a few of them. I implore you to read them.

http://www.prolifeaction.org/providers/


And also, WHY oh WHY is it safe? Really. Tell me this.

[Enoch]

Sailor Moon wrote: You didnt read any other stories? There are quite a few of them. I implore you to read them.

http://www.prolifeaction.org/providers/


And also, WHY oh WHY is it safe? Really. Tell me this.

You may wish to find a more neutral source to support your argument. Using a pro-life site to support a pro-life argument isn't good debate.