Political Crossfire Forums

[Sailor Moon]

Shes there to do what the marketers tell her is her choice to do- to "terminate" her "pregnancy"... its misleading as to what is really happening. In fact many abortion clinics and abortion supporters would rather just tell a woman that they are emptying 'the contents of the uterus" rather than to say what that uterus actually CONTAINS.

Its misleading and paternal. It encourages not choice, but half truths, denial, lies, and uninformed consent.

To be truly informed, one must be informed that not only is something REMOVED, by using terminology like "removing the contents of the uterus" but to be informed, need to be told what it is, that it is destroyed and that its heart will stop. Women dont need to hear 'Its a blob of tissue". They need to hear "We are about to destroy your live fetus", at the very least.

This all comes down to this big debate on whether women should have to look at the ultrasound or not. Looking at the ultrasound is a part of the informed consent debate. Paternal pro choicers try to shield women from seeing "the contents of her uterus"... Why?

Because it brings sales down.

So answer me honestly now. Why shield women this way? If you really think they have all the information already, then why is it wrong to use proper terminology and why is it wrong, also, for her to have to look at the ultrasound?

I would say that if someone believes that her seeing the ultrasound is "wrong" then they must not really be pro choice. There is no choice when coercion and lies are so generally allowed.

[Enoch]

Sailor Moon wrote: Shes there to do what the marketers tell her is her choice to do- to "terminate" her "pregnancy"... its misleading as to what is really happening. In fact many abortion clinics and abortion supporters would rather just tell a woman that they are emptying 'the contents of the uterus" rather than to say what that uterus actually CONTAINS.

Its misleading and paternal. It encourages not choice, but half truths, denial, lies, and uninformed consent.

To be truly informed, one must be informed that not only is something REMOVED, by using terminology like "removing the contents of the uterus" but to be informed, need to be told what it is, that it is destroyed and that its heart will stop. Women dont need to hear 'Its a blob of tissue". They need to hear "We are about to destroy your live fetus", at the very least.

This all comes down to this big debate on whether women should have to look at the ultrasound or not. Looking at the ultrasound is a part of the informed consent debate. Paternal pro choicers try to shield women from seeing "the contents of her uterus"... Why?

Because it brings sales down.

So answer me honestly now. Why shield women this way? If you really think they have all the information already, then why is it wrong to use proper terminology and why is it wrong, also, for her to have to look at the ultrasound?

I would say that if someone believes that her seeing the ultrasound is "wrong" then they must not really be pro choice. There is no choice when coercion and lies are so generally allowed.

I know that you have a very strong opinion on the abortion debate, and I am not attempting to change that or undermine the validity of your opinion.

However, I would contend that forcing a woman to look at the ultrasound is coercive in nature. It should be her choice and that choice should be expected. Some may choose, some may not. The women should NOT be forced to look, nor forced NOT to look. It should be their decision, and the doctors should respect that.

[Sailor Moon]

UrielsFyre wrote: Sailor Moon wrote: Shes there to do what the marketers tell her is her choice to do- to "terminate" her "pregnancy"... its misleading as to what is really happening. In fact many abortion clinics and abortion supporters would rather just tell a woman that they are emptying 'the contents of the uterus" rather than to say what that uterus actually CONTAINS.

Its misleading and paternal. It encourages not choice, but half truths, denial, lies, and uninformed consent.

To be truly informed, one must be informed that not only is something REMOVED, by using terminology like "removing the contents of the uterus" but to be informed, need to be told what it is, that it is destroyed and that its heart will stop. Women dont need to hear 'Its a blob of tissue". They need to hear "We are about to destroy your live fetus", at the very least.

This all comes down to this big debate on whether women should have to look at the ultrasound or not. Looking at the ultrasound is a part of the informed consent debate. Paternal pro choicers try to shield women from seeing "the contents of her uterus"... Why?

Because it brings sales down.

So answer me honestly now. Why shield women this way? If you really think they have all the information already, then why is it wrong to use proper terminology and why is it wrong, also, for her to have to look at the ultrasound?

I would say that if someone believes that her seeing the ultrasound is "wrong" then they must not really be pro choice. There is no choice when coercion and lies are so generally allowed.

I know that you have a very strong opinion on the abortion debate, and I am not attempting to change that or undermine the validity of your opinion.

However, I would contend that forcing a woman to look at the ultrasound is coercive in nature.

Coercive how? She has the right to be informed! How is this coercive? What are you guarding her from? Her ability to make a choice for herself?

Quote: It should be her choice and that choice should be expected. Some may choose, some may not. The women should NOT be forced to look, nor forced NOT to look. It should be their decision, and the doctors should respect that.

They absolutely should respect that, by providing accurate information regarding her "condition". Doctors should also respect her CHOICE enough to not be so paternal and shield her from "the contents of her uterus" by discouraging her to see what her uterus contains. It is the encouragement of lies and deceit that happens when a womans informed choice and informed consent is not respected by the pro choice crowd.

[Enoch]

Sailor,

Please reread my post. Where did I say that doctors should "shield" her from the ultrasound? I said that it is coercive to FORCE her to look, just as it would be coercive to FORCE her not to.

Choice means that the woman has the right to look or not to look as SHE, and only SHE, deems fit.

[Sailor Moon]

UrielsFyre wrote: Sailor,

Please reread my post. Where did I say that doctors should "shield" her from the ultrasound? I said that it is coercive to FORCE her to look, just as it would be coercive to FORCE her not to.

Choice means that the woman has the right to look or not to look as SHE, and only SHE, deems fit.


It also means that the doctor cannot tell her that what shes seeing is a "blob" of tissue... Anyways, what difference does it make if she has to look at the screen? She has to sign a form stating she has been informed, which is the typical legal jargon form, about 8 pages long, all small lettering, and difficult to decipher for anyone outside of the legal profession.

If we are to inform these women, then we need to make sure they are fully informed. Wouldnt you agree with this? I am not saying that she should be FORCED to look, but she should be encouraged rather than discouraged, told the truth, rather than shielded and lied to, the way it is done now.

And this entire rationale you have doesnt make sense at all. Why not offer a sleeper shot to all ladies going into the clinic? Like, for free? After all... they should have the RIGHT to choose to see whats going on and whats not, correct? But they dont even offer the shots for free, why, because it takes away from their profit margin.

Its not about women, generally. Its about sales.

[Enoch]

Sailor Moon wrote: UrielsFyre wrote: Sailor,

Please reread my post. Where did I say that doctors should "shield" her from the ultrasound? I said that it is coercive to FORCE her to look, just as it would be coercive to FORCE her not to.

Choice means that the woman has the right to look or not to look as SHE, and only SHE, deems fit.


It also means that the doctor cannot tell her that what shes seeing is a "blob" of tissue... Anyways, what difference does it make if she has to look at the screen? She has to sign a form stating she has been informed, which is the typical legal jargon form, about 8 pages long, all small lettering, and difficult to decipher for anyone outside of the legal profession.

If we are to inform these women, then we need to make sure they are fully informed. Wouldnt you agree with this? I am not saying that she should be FORCED to look, but she should be encouraged rather than discouraged, told the truth, rather than shielded and lied to, the way it is done now.

And this entire rationale you have doesnt make sense at all. Why not offer a sleeper shot to all ladies going into the clinic? Like, for free? After all... they should have the RIGHT to choose to see whats going on and whats not, correct? But they dont even offer the shots for free, why, because it takes away from their profit margin.

Its not about women, generally. Its about sales.

You are making a hasty generalization based on my arguments.

Yes, my rationale makes perfect sense. Medical procedures, especially those of a voluntary nature (like most abortions), are about choice. A person CHOOSES to have the procedure, and should therefore be able to CHOOSE whether or not to look at any ultrasounds.

If a clinic wishes to offer women the choice to be unconcious during the procedure, the woman should be able to choose whether or not to do so. If the clinic does not offer that choice, and the woman wishes to be unconcious, then she has the CHOICE to go to another clinic.

I am all for informed consent. However, informed consent means that she has been presented with her choices and has chosen which course of action to take.

Moreover, whether the doctor says "blob of tissue" or "fetus" matters not. The woman knows that she is pregnant, and knows what that means. To claim that a woman wouldn't understand that she was pregnant if the doctor said "blob of tissue" is rather naive. If she didn't know she was pregnant, how why would she be having an abortion? Adding emotional embelishments by the doctor is a subtle attempt at coersion. Doctor's should offer the facts not their emotional opinions.

[Sailor Moon]

UrielsFyre wrote:

You are making a hasty generalization based on my arguments.

Yes, my rationale makes perfect sense. Medical procedures, especially those of a voluntary nature (like most abortions), are about choice. A person CHOOSES to have the procedure, and should therefore be able to CHOOSE whether or not to look at any ultrasounds.

Right there. You said "the procedure"... its more than a procedure. Many women dont realise this, whether you want to face that as truth or not.

Quote: If a clinic wishes to offer women the choice to be unconcious during the procedure, the woman should be able to choose whether or not to do so. If the clinic does not offer that choice, and the woman wishes to be unconcious, then she has the CHOICE to go to another clinic.

She cant usually go to another clinic, actually. Do you think that these clinics are on every streetcorner? Of course theyre not. Most women have to drive 2 hours out of town one way just to get there. She should be able to choose, not discouraged from not choosing, by the clinic not even having a sleep shot.

Quote: I am all for informed consent. However, informed consent means that she has been presented with her choices and has chosen which course of action to take .

Not really. Call an abortion clinic. Tell them youre girlfriend is at work and has asked you to call and find out about abortion. Tell them shes pregnant. Ask them these two questions, then get back to me:

Does it hurt?

It it a baby?/ If they say no, then of course... ask them "What is it?" Then ask them "is it alive?"


They told me it doesnt hurt, or there is only mild discomfort, and only rarely. 1- it hurt like hell, and 2- if you have ever heard of male catheterizing, then you can imagine how painful it is to have an orafice of your body forced open.

And regarding my anser to "is it a baby?" and "What is it" they said, "no, its just a blob of tissue".

I am telling you they lie like hell to make a sale. Call and find out for yourself. Most women only call those places because they have pregnancy QUESTIONS. The people at the other end of the line have a responsibility to sell abortion, so of course they are going to do anything in their power to sell it.

Quote: Moreover, whether the doctor says "blob of tissue" or "fetus" matters not. The woman knows that she is pregnant, and knows what that means.

Oh really? And you know this, because?

Because every woman who goes into an abortion clinic asks if its a baby or what it is? Just because she knows shes pregnant doesnt mean she understands gestational development. Many women really do think that it is a blob of tissue, and they prefer to think that way as a defensive measure against the idea of killing another human being.

Quote: To claim that a woman wouldn't understand that she was pregnant if the doctor said "blob of tissue" is rather naive. If she didn't know she was pregnant, how why would she be having an abortion? Adding emotional embelishments by the doctor is a subtle attempt at coersion. Doctor's should offer the facts not their emotional opinions.

Being pregnant is one thing. Being told, falsely, that it is a blob of tissue, is quite another. And do tell me why telling her it has arms and legs, ribs, organs and a face, matters? Its her choice, remember? Shes going to find out the truth eventually. And telling her its a blob of tissue is a paternal coercion that shields women from the facts, which they deserve to know. Cut your apron strings and stop trying to shield women from making informed choices!!!! If its really a choice, then why is it that you are so hesitant to give this information out to pre abortive women? Would you rather they not know the facts? :roll: Typical.

[Enoch]

Quote: Cut your apron strings and stop trying to shield women from making informed choices!!!! If its really a choice, then why is it that you are so hesitant to give this information out to pre abortive women? Would you rather they not know the facts? Typical

What is typical? Why do you assume that, simply because we disagree, that I am trying to "supress the truth" or "sheild women"? Please, avoid making generalizations about my motives when it is clear you don't understand them.

As for your suggestion that I call an abortion clinic, I don't need to. I have been told, first hand, from several female friends who have had an abortion what they went through. Some experiences were positive, some were negative. Trying to make generalizations based on your own personal experiences is an argumentative fallacy. Surely you understand that just because you experienced significant pain does not mean that ALL women do?

Quote: Oh really? And you know this, because?

Because every woman who goes into an abortion clinic asks if its a baby or what it is? Just because she knows shes pregnant doesnt mean she understands gestational development. Many women really do think that it is a blob of tissue, and they prefer to think that way as a defensive measure against the idea of killing another human being.

I know this because I paid attention in 4th grade Health class when we were explained "the birds and the bees." Please, are you honestly trying to suggest that there is a substantial portion of the female population who doesn't understand what pregnancy is?

I will grant you that there are a lot who don't understand the details of gestational development. But, unless the woman is suffering from a severe mental disorder or illness, she knows what pregnant means.

Quote: Being pregnant is one thing. Being told, falsely, that it is a blob of tissue, is quite another. And do tell me why telling her it has arms and legs, ribs, organs and a face, matters? Its her choice, remember? Shes going to find out the truth eventually.

Yes, it is her choice. Like I said, calling it a blob or tisse or a fetus or a baby matters not. So, that being said, why is it that you are putting all the responsibility on the doctors and abortion clinics? It would seem to me that the women should have some responsibility here. If they are not taking the initiative to actually learn about the procedure (yes, that dreaded word again), then it would stand to reason that they should not expect the clinics to tell them everything they feel they need to know.

Not only does this come down to choice, but it comes down to responsibility as well. The doctors have an obligation, yes, to provide accurate and honest information to their patients. But, the patients have an obligation to make sure they understand before they undergo a procedure, abortion or otherwise.

[Prole]

Sailor Moon wrote: UrielsFyre wrote:

You are making a hasty generalization based on my arguments.

Yes, my rationale makes perfect sense. Medical procedures, especially those of a voluntary nature (like most abortions), are about choice. A person CHOOSES to have the procedure, and should therefore be able to CHOOSE whether or not to look at any ultrasounds.

Right there. You said "the procedure"... its more than a procedure. Many women dont realise this, whether you want to face that as truth or not.

That is entirely your subjective opinion, certainly not one that is universally held, nor one that is legally true. As far as the law is concerned, it is simply a procedure.

Sailor Moon wrote: Just because she knows shes pregnant doesnt mean she understands gestational development. Many women really do think that it is a blob of tissue, and they prefer to think that way as a defensive measure against the idea of killing another human being.
Technically, it is just a blob of tissue. But so are you and I, so that point doesn't mean much by itself.

I agree that many women are ignorant about gestational development. But Sailor, you are attempting to polarize your view of "women have to be told about gestational development" with a strawman of "women should not be told about gestational development" which neither Uriel nor anyone else is arguing.

The question is then not should people be allowed to know about gestational development (as we are in agreement that they should), but should they be forced to know? And if so, how much should they be forced to know?

I consider having knowledge available to be something that allows people greater ability to make the choice that is right for them. But at the same time, I also believe that people should be allowed to remain ignorant about their choices, for whatever reason. You may say, "No, if they're ignorant they'll just end up unhappy," but this is clearly baseless conjecture; every person, and what makes them happy, is different, and forcibly asserting that someone has to learn something for their own good is a huge infringement upon personal choice.

Do I think it's a good idea to know about gestational development if you are going to have an abortion? Probably. But this is purely my opinion, and I do not think that forcing something upon someone, including knowledge, is ever warranted.

Sailor Moon wrote:
Being pregnant is one thing. Being told, falsely, that it is a blob of tissue, is quite another. And do tell me why telling her it has arms and legs, ribs, organs and a face, matters? Its her choice, remember?
Yes, it is her choice. Thus, access to knowledge too should be a choice. Automatically telling a patient something that has nothing to do with the safety of the procedure (which is as much as doctors are ethically obligated to do) is forcing information on someone, and it does matter.

[Enoch]

Well said Prole. :clap:

[Sailor Moon]

since everyones opinions and education differs, then there should not be a lack of education to women going into clinics in regards to their gestation, and their abortions. You should not assume that just because you know something, that everyone must know the same.

As far as your opinions go on us all being a blob of tissue, I am afraid that that just isnt a legitimate use of terminology relating to medicine or science, and it is also your choice to "chalk it up" to a blob of tissue. The facts should be laid out well, and made easy to understand to anyone, even the least educated among us.

To lie to women, and then say "its okay to say that, because everyone already knows everything there is to know about all medical procedures" is not a pro choice line of thinking. It IS an anti fact line of thinking, and very paternal indeed.

[Enoch]

Sailor Moon wrote: since everyones opinions and education differs, then there should not be a lack of education to women going into clinics in regards to their gestation, and their abortions. You should not assume that just because you know something, that everyone must know the same.

As far as your opinions go on us all being a blob of tissue, I am afraid that that just isnt a legitimate use of terminology relating to medicine or science, and it is also your choice to "chalk it up" to a blob of tissue. The facts should be laid out well, and made easy to understand to anyone, even the least educated among us.

To lie to women, and then say "its okay to say that, because everyone already knows everything there is to know about all medical procedures" is not a pro choice line of thinking. It IS an anti fact line of thinking, and very paternal indeed.

I refer you to my earlier contention:

Quote: Yes, it is her choice. Like I said, calling it a blob or tisse or a fetus or a baby matters not. So, that being said, why is it that you are putting all the responsibility on the doctors and abortion clinics? It would seem to me that the women should have some responsibility here. If they are not taking the initiative to actually learn about the procedure (yes, that dreaded word again), then it would stand to reason that they should not expect the clinics to tell them everything they feel they need to know.

Not only does this come down to choice, but it comes down to responsibility as well. The doctors have an obligation, yes, to provide accurate and honest information to their patients. But, the patients have an obligation to make sure they understand before they undergo a procedure, abortion or otherwise.

[Prole]

Sailor Moon wrote: since everyones opinions and education differs, then there should not be a lack of education to women going into clinics in regards to their gestation, and their abortions. You should not assume that just because you know something, that everyone must know the same.
What gave you the impression that I assumed that because I know something that everyone must know they same?

Prole wrote: I agree that many women are ignorant about gestational development.
Was that it?

Sailor Moon wrote: The facts should be laid out well, and made easy to understand to anyone, even the least educated among us.
I agree. But allowing people facts is a far cry from forcing them to learn them.

Sailor Moon wrote: To lie to women, and then say "its okay to say that, because everyone already knows everything there is to know about all medical procedures" is not a pro choice line of thinking.
Agreed, that is certainly not the pro-choice way of thinking, nor is it the view we are advocating. We advocate that the information be available by choice, not that it is unavailable, while you advocate that we have to know it. Neither of us argue that women (or anyone, for that matter) should not be privy to this information.

[Sailor Moon]

So, in other words, the patients with no education have to be able to 1- read and 2- understand all those legal jargon words? So only lawyers and paralegals will understand what theyre facing?

Youre absolving doctors of responsibility to help women make educated choices.

[Enoch]

Sailor Moon wrote: So, in other words, the patients with no education have to be able to 1- read and 2- understand all those legal jargon words? So only lawyers and paralegals will understand what theyre facing?

Youre absolving doctors of responsibility to help women make educated choices.

Are you going to actually answer my questions that I posted twice?

The responsibility lies on BOTH the doctors and the patients. The doctors have the responsibility to present accurate and honest information. But, the patient has the responsibility to make sure they understand. If a patient consents to a procedure and has not made sure they understand what is going to happen, they share part of the blame.

[Sailor Moon]

I read that, and that was my response. They either have to be educated enough, in your opinion, to understand the medical tems and the legal terms, or they have to bring someone with them ( a lawyer, and a doctor) who really does have their best interests at heart.

In a nutshell.

And thats what I wholeheartedly disagree with.

[Enoch]

Sailor Moon wrote: I read that, and that was my response. They either have to be educated enough, in your opinion, to understand the medical tems and the legal terms, or they have to bring someone with them ( a lawyer, and a doctor) who really does have their best interests at heart.

In a nutshell.

And thats what I wholeheartedly disagree with.

But, do you agree that a patient shares some responsibility to make sure they understand? After all, it is up to the patient to ask questions on anything they are confused about. If the patient stays quiet and doesn't ask, the doctor has no choice but to assume that the information laid out has been understood.

[Sailor Moon]

Yes, and the patents DO ask questions. They are also LIED to. The doctors butts are covered by their legal jargon filled "informed consent" forms.


JEEEEEEZZZ!!!!

What part of this dont you understand?

[Enoch]

Sailor Moon wrote: Yes, and the patents DO ask questions. They are also LIED to. The doctors butts are covered by their legal jargon filled "informed consent" forms.


JEEEEEEZZZ!!!!

What part of this dont you understand?

Sure. I get it now. Every doctor in the nation lies to patients. How could I have been so blind? :roll:

Don't make hasty generalizations Sailor. I know I've mentioned that to you before, but you still continue to do it.

[Prole]

We do not advocate that doctors lie to their patient at all. Furtheremore, there are measures in placet to prevent this from occurring; if a doctor lies to their patient, they will be sued and lose their license to practice medicine.

You aren't providing any constructive solutions, Sailor. You're just complaining.