Political Crossfire Forums

[EMUGOD]

I was wondering, how would you personally react if a respectable organization was started with the intent of using genetic engineering to create a master race? and not a third reich "aryan" herrenvolk, but an actual superior, elite, race. we're talking human gods here, capable of anything you could imagine, and a little more.

[Pzatchok]

And who would decide the traits to foster?

The liberal elite or the conservative elite?

Whos genes do we turn down and how do you tell them that they are inferior?


I know my genes are great enough to make it into the future race but yours leave some room for improvment.

[Korimyr the Rat]

EMUGOD wrote: and not a third reich "aryan" herrenvolk, but an actual superior, elite, race. we're talking human gods here, capable of anything you could imagine, and a little more.

Hey, if the people doing this are foolish enough to place cosmetic concerns over actual survival and competence traits, who am I to interfere?

They'll be working on the perfect Aryan beauty while the sensible eugenicists will be working on the people who'll be keeping them as pets. It'll work out in the end.

Pzatchok wrote: And who would decide the traits to foster?

Obviously, the founders of the organization. I suppose my reactions would be based on how much of their agenda I agreed with.

Pzatchok wrote: The liberal elite or the conservative elite?

Given their stated positions-- the former's silly belief that all human beings are of equal value and the latter's superstitious aversion to reproductive technology-- I would imagine the most likely answer would be "neither".

Pzatchok wrote: Whose genes do we turn down and how do you tell them that they are inferior?

Well, I'm not going to make any speculations about such a hypothetical organization-- I can't pretend to know what their priorities would be-- but I'd imagine they'd tell people that their genes were inferior with a vague, polite letter informing them that their contributions will not be necessary.

After all, the original poster did rule out shoving them into ovens.

Pzatchok wrote: I know my genes are great enough to make it into the future race but yours leave some room for improvment.

Good. You have the right attitude.

[DarkMerlin]

EMUGOD wrote: I was wondering, how would you personally react if a respectable organization was started with the intent of using genetic engineering to create a master race? and not a third reich "aryan" herrenvolk, but an actual superior, elite, race. we're talking human gods here, capable of anything you could imagine, and a little more.

Well, the problem is that the phrase "master race" is an extremely spurious term that implies uniformity, the supposed superiority of humans over other animals, and the existence of some sort of pinnacle form that works perfectly in all conditions. While genetic engineering can (and in my opinion should) be used to alter humans (and other animals) to give them capacities more suited for the current or potential social, technological, and environmental conditions, it would be false to necessarily consider these changes as "improvements." A fish, a tiger, or a bacteriophage are all more successful than humans at survival in a specific environment. Almost every genetic change is a trade-off that may improve one trait at the cost of another. If anything, genetic engineering of humans will increase diversity and widen the capacity for humans to succeed in other environments (i.e. outer space, urban areas, and cyberspace), rather than create some sort of "perfect" race or group.

Furthermore, if you are speaking of "human gods" in the transhuman/posthuman sense, those sorts of beings probably won't come about from genetic engineering, but rather from artificial intelligence and nanotechnology.

[EMUGOD]

DarkMerlin wrote: Furthermore, if you are speaking of "human gods" in the transhuman/posthuman sense, those sorts of beings probably won't come about from genetic engineering, but rather from artificial intelligence and nanotechnology.

Ah, but there is no reason why they would need to. The nerve cell will always be more efficient than an electronic computer, and the same goes for (almost) any other comparison. And, as for which genes to use; why use any? Wouldn't it make more sense to start with a blank slate, developing an organism capable of dominating all environments, and then throwing on the most stream-lined, bug(psychosis)-free organic super-computer on top?

but that's all getting into details. it's the thought that matters, and what i was wondering (so far it's 50/50 :( ). for all any of us know, life as we know it might not be even the best choice (i've always thought/hoped we'd eventually succumb to intelligent plants :twisted: ) for building gods.

[Sid]

I'm against genetic engineering as a whole. Since you're going to ask why, I'm going to say I don't know, it's just that it seems too unnatural. Besides, the thought of a master race goes against the grain just as much as genetic manipulation does. I'd do all I could to oppose it. The psycological effects of being an very specifically "inferior race" could be detrimental to society.

Honestly, It just strikes me as so wrong that it shouldn't happen.

[Pzatchok]

On a slightly side note.

What about selective removal of bad genes?
Its happening now in the US. Testing for several birth defects has been going on for years now and I bet MANY people chose an abortion over having the child. Sick as that sounds it can't be denied. Tay-sachs among the jewish comunity is one that comes to mind quickly along with sicklecell anemia in the black community.

By removing those so called inferior genes from the gene pool we are in effect creating a master race. Albet a bit more random and a tad bit slower than our origional poster seems to be implying.

For me this is a slippery slope of moral relativism that must be traveled quite carefully.

[Canadian-kid]

Even if we just engineer a superior race, whats to stop this God like race from eliminating us the inferior?

[EMUGOD]

Canadian-kid wrote: Even if we just engineer a superior race, whats to stop this God like race from eliminating us the inferior?

Why shouldn't humanity (as it is now) die out? When you are allowed to make your child a HUMAN GOD from birth, who (barring the lunatics known as "religious") would deny their child that priviledge?

[DarkMerlin]

EMUGOD wrote: DarkMerlin wrote: Furthermore, if you are speaking of "human gods" in the transhuman/posthuman sense, those sorts of beings probably won't come about from genetic engineering, but rather from artificial intelligence and nanotechnology.

Ah, but there is no reason why they would need to. The nerve cell will always be more efficient than an electronic computer, and the same goes for (almost) any other comparison. And, as for which genes to use; why use any? Wouldn't it make more sense to start with a blank slate, developing an organism capable of dominating all environments, and then throwing on the most stream-lined, bug(psychosis)-free organic super-computer on top?

but that's all getting into details. it's the thought that matters, and what i was wondering (so far it's 50/50 :( ). for all any of us know, life as we know it might not be even the best choice (i've always thought/hoped we'd eventually succumb to intelligent plants :twisted: ) for building gods.

To be honest, your post shows very little understanding of the actual science behind these sorts of things. There is no distinction between the human nervous system and an electronic computer (well, actually our nervous systems are electrochemical in nature, but the principles are the same) except in terms of complexity. In fact, once computing technology reaches a certain level, electronic computers will almost certainly be MORE efficient than the human nervous system as it is now.

Furthermore, it is not so simple to build a perfect organism "from scratch," as such, and if we were, it would probably be closer to a virus or bacteriophage than anything resembling a "master race." Our understanding of DNA is based primarily on the (extremely complex) interactions of genes. Furthermore, our ability to genetically alter organisms is based mostly on cutting and pasting sections of DNA using enzymes, plasmids, etc., rather than changing individual base-pairs. We probably won't be able to construct DNA "from a blank slate" until we have advanced nanotechnology, and by that time it would be simpler and more effective to use an entirely different kind of cybernetic information than DNA.

Don't get me wrong: I'm all for geneticly engineering/enhancing humans; I simply don't think that doing so will lead to a "master race" as you call it, but rather an incredible flowering of diversity.

[DarkMerlin]

Sid wrote: I'm against genetic engineering as a whole. Since you're going to ask why, I'm going to say I don't know, it's just that it seems too unnatural. Besides, the thought of a master race goes against the grain just as much as genetic manipulation does. I'd do all I could to oppose it. The psycological effects of being an very specifically "inferior race" could be detrimental to society.

Honestly, It just strikes me as so wrong that it shouldn't happen.

Humans have been using genetic engineering for thousands and thousands of years. That's how we got dogs, sheep, and domesticated cattle, not to mention corn and other grains as we know them today. If you don't want to be "unnatural," you could go live in a cave and hunt your food.

[Canadian-kid]

EMUGOD wrote: Canadian-kid wrote: Even if we just engineer a superior race, whats to stop this God like race from eliminating us the inferior?

Why shouldn't humanity (as it is now) die out? When you are allowed to make your child a HUMAN GOD from birth, who (barring the lunatics known as "religious") would deny their child that priviledge?

I don't know why humanity shouldn't die out but I think if we are going to die out it should not be from another human like race killing us all. Oh and I not being very religous would deny my child that priviledge to show to him or her that not all things in life come easy and we have to work for what we want.

[Korimyr the Rat]

Canadian-kid wrote: Even if we just engineer a superior race, whats to stop this God like race from eliminating us the inferior?

If this race is made up of our children, what's the problem? We expect our children to replace us.

[Canadian-kid]

Korimyr the Rat wrote: Canadian-kid wrote: Even if we just engineer a superior race, whats to stop this God like race from eliminating us the inferior?

If this race is made up of our children, what's the problem? We expect our children to replace us.

that's true but this master race will not be created everywhere, what if they get the idea to not only kill us as they view us as inferieror but they exterminate all those not of their kind. I don't like the idea of such a thing happening.

[DarkMerlin]

Canadian-kid wrote: Korimyr the Rat wrote: Canadian-kid wrote: Even if we just engineer a superior race, whats to stop this God like race from eliminating us the inferior?

If this race is made up of our children, what's the problem? We expect our children to replace us.

that's true but this master race will not be created everywhere, what if they get the idea to not only kill us as they view us as inferieror bujavascript:emoticon(':!:')
Exclamationt they exterminate all those not of their kind. I don't like the idea of such a thing happening.

I hate to break it to you, but the world rarely works out like the movies. Such an idea makes a great science fiction story, but most people (with a few notable historical exceptions) are not inclined to "exterminate" those "not of their kind." These sorts of ideas have far more to do with the way people are raised and treated, and much less to do with their genetics.

[Headrattle]

Screw that. I say we leave it to Evolution and Nature. I think that Nature will make the stronger work out in the end anyway. PLUS! Much less bloodshed.

[EMUGOD]

Headrattle wrote: Screw that. I say we leave it to Evolution and Nature. I think that Nature will make the stronger work out in the end anyway. PLUS! Much less bloodshed.

the problem is that as society becomes more equal, evolution will become less and less active, and eventually stop dead in it's tracks. and then the gene pool will stagnate, and we'll all die of disease.

[DarkMerlin]

EMUGOD wrote: Headrattle wrote: Screw that. I say we leave it to Evolution and Nature. I think that Nature will make the stronger work out in the end anyway. PLUS! Much less bloodshed.

the problem is that as society becomes more equal, evolution will become less and less active, and eventually stop dead in it's tracks. and then the gene pool will stagnate, and we'll all die of disease.

Not really. Evolution is not a process of improvement as people often think of it, but rather a process of change. It doesn't really "stop dead in its tracks," even if one thinks of it as a personal force. Equality does not mean that change via reproductive selection stops; merely that different traits will be selected for. The gene pool is not something that can be thought of as stagnating, and we certainly won't all die of disease without genetic engineering.

[Headrattle]

EMUGOD wrote: the problem is that as society becomes more equal, evolution will become less and less active, and eventually stop dead in it's tracks. and then the gene pool will stagnate, and we'll all die of disease.
Not all societies in the world are equal. In many parts of the world there is perpetual war and disease. In those examples, the people will evolve at a different rate. Still, in the better societies there will be evolution, but we don't really know what.

Finally, we won't all die of disease. Some will survive, and evolve.

As long as there is death and reproduction, there will be evolution.

[Pzatchok]

Headrattle wrote: Screw that. I say we leave it to Evolution and Nature. I think that Nature will make the stronger work out in the end anyway. PLUS! Much less bloodshed.



Remove tha warning labels from everything and let nature take care of the rest.

In 2 generations the worlds IQ will go up a few points.