Political Crossfire Forums

Sailor Moon · Joined: 22 Sep 2005 Posts: 2782 Location: O-town, Florida

Everything you need to know about legal abortion risks!

http://www.forerunner.com/forerunner/X0476_Safe_Legal_Abortion.html

Mary Calderon even said illegal abortion is safe, back in 1960!!! She was the Director of Planned PArenthood!!! She said 90% of abortions were done by physicians on good standing! ... And did you know that the production of antibiotics in the 1940s is what REALLY helped post abortive women??? Really!

http://www.vanderbilt.edu/SFL/illeg.htm

Illegal abortion will not automatically give fetuses any more rights than they already have. All it will do is make the act of assisted abortion illegal. Thats all. To say that fetuses will have rights and that hundreds of thousands of women will go to jail every year for self induced abortions, accidental miscarriages, etc, is just ludicris. WHY? I'll tell ya why-

1- Medical documents are STILL PRIVATE.

2- IT IS DANG NEAR IMPOSSIBLE TO PROVE SUCH A THING, with SO many women.

3- WOMEN WILL ALWAYS HAVE AUTONOMY over their BODIES!

In other words, dont worry. When Roe VS Wade gets overturned, thousands of women are NOT going to die, contrary to what all the pro choice propagandists have told you... In fact, it will probably SAVE MANY LIVES, and improve womens fertility.

One things for sure- Men will not have nearly as much control in the realm of sexuality. It seems that Roe VS Wade helped to foster the spread of disease, deadbeat dads, coerced abortion, domestic violence, and all that other ugly stuff- all that exploiting of women stuff... so I hope to GOD that it gets overturned IN A HURRY.

I am tired of men thinking of women as "posessions" and "objects of desire". Making abortion illegal will hopefully get the ball of overall morality and health rolling again.

One can hope, at least... :-D

The Anarchist

Ah, I see. You're trying to come up with a compromise of sorts. You know if it were the case that it were illegal, but just one of those laws that's never enforced, then I wouldn't mind that too much. But there are some problems still though.

1) People like to hold protests outside of known abortion practitioners, and after a while of seeing pregnant women going in and not ever coming out again(pregnant) then people will figure it out. (I just realized that sounds like I'm saying they can see that a woman is pregnant going in and not coming out. I mean they happen to know the person is pregnant and then they come out and later they realize that the person never has a baby.) People catch on to these things, at least the ones who want to complain about other people's choices, and they'll let it be known. I think that if this were to happen then eventually the legal system would have to acknowledge that abortions are taking place and then start arresting people. For those of us who think it should be a right, we don't think that anyone should ever be arrested for it. And so that's one issue.

2) For another thing people don't want to live in a society that publically condemns them even if nothing is done to them. That's kind of something that comes up in the gay marriage issue for me. If people say that it's wrong for gay men to marry, then it's saying that they shouldn't be treated like any other couple and even if nothing is done to them, they know that they are thought of as second-class citizens. That's not something anybody should have to go through because of their way of life or beliefs or anything else. A woman who is facing a difficult choice shouldn't have to deal with the knowledge that society condemns her for her beliefs even if society doesn't do anything to her.

Other than that, my only hesitation about it being illegal but something that's not enforced is that I don't trust the government to not enforce it. I think that the government gets off on controlling people.

On the issue of men thinking of women as objects....??? But women ARE objects. :) No more so than men, but they are. As for the object of desire thing, I don't think there's anything wrong with that, and I only wish that I were held as an object of desire in a woman's eyes. But, alas, as I've told you. I'm horrifically ugly. Grotesquely so. And so no woman has ever, or will ever find me remotely attractive. Not that it makes a difference at my age. Have you ever seen Joy Ride? I'm like that truck driver except less homicide and more ugly and less truck driver and more wealthy. I agree that it would be very nice if there were no thinking of women as objects in general though. And on the ball of morality, I'm not too keen on that ball. It's a very totalitarian ball. If morality were a ball then it would have to have the ability to roll in more than one direction at once.

But back to what I think is your main point, I think it would be fine if people stopped protesting and abortion were made illegal and it was still practiced and the law never enforced.... except for the #2 thing above. That one's still a bit problematic. And of course don't trust the government.

The Anarchist · Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:00 am Post subject:

BTW, glad to see you back. Hope nothing bad happened. You're not one to stay away from the forums for very long.

Korimyr the Rat · Joined: 11 Jan 2006 Posts: 983 Location: Wyoming

Sailor Moon wrote: One things for sure- Men will not have nearly as much control in the realm of sexuality. It seems that Roe VS Wade helped to foster the spread of disease, deadbeat dads, coerced abortion, domestic violence, and all that other ugly stuff- all that exploiting of women stuff... so I hope to GOD that it gets overturned IN A HURRY.

How, precisely, does legalized abortion give men more power over womens' sexuality?

I can understand how it might support the spread of STDs-- but that's much more likely associated with the invention of the Pill-- but doesn't it seem much more logical that abortion would reduce the incidence of deadbeat dads? After all, if the child's aborted, there's no child support for the father to skip out on.

And domestic violence? What the hell does that have to do with anything? It's domestic violence that promotes abortion, not the other way around.

Sailor Moon · Joined: 22 Sep 2005 Posts: 2782 Location: O-town, Florida

The Anarchist wrote: Ah, I see. You're trying to come up with a compromise of sorts. You know if it were the case that it were illegal, but just one of those laws that's never enforced, then I wouldn't mind that too much. But there are some problems still though.

1) People like to hold protests outside of known abortion practitioners, and after a while of seeing pregnant women going in and not ever coming out again(pregnant) then people will figure it out. (I just realized that sounds like I'm saying they can see that a woman is pregnant going in and not coming out. I mean they happen to know the person is pregnant and then they come out and later they realize that the person never has a baby.) People catch on to these things, at least the ones who want to complain about other people's choices, and they'll let it be known. I think that if this were to happen then eventually the legal system would have to acknowledge that abortions are taking place and then start arresting people. For those of us who think it should be a right, we don't think that anyone should ever be arrested for it. And so that's one issue.

Assisted abortion is much easier to prove than self induced miscarriage, man. Duh.

Quote: 2) For another thing people don't want to live in a society that publically condemns them even if nothing is done to them. That's kind of something that comes up in the gay marriage issue for me. If people say that it's wrong for gay men to marry, then it's saying that they shouldn't be treated like any other couple and even if nothing is done to them, they know that they are thought of as second-class citizens. That's not something anybody should have to go through because of their way of life or beliefs or anything else. A woman who is facing a difficult choice shouldn't have to deal with the knowledge that society condemns her for her beliefs even if society doesn't do anything to her.

Most women STILL dont tell anyone theyve had an abortion even though its legal, so whatever. Theres an aspect of guilt, you know.. not before- but afterwards... And not BECAUSE of anyone else... BECAUSE the womans baby was killed. Straighten all this out in your head, Annie.

Quote: Other than that, my only hesitation about it being illegal but something that's not enforced is that I don't trust the government to not enforce it. I think that the government gets off on controlling people.

Sure, they can enforce the illegal abortion clinics easy enough..

Anyways, when Roe VS Wade gets overturned, the states that do the most abortions will probably keep it legal, anyways.. whats the big problem you have with all this?
Quote:
On the issue of men thinking of women as objects....??? But women ARE objects. :) No more so than men, but they are. As for the object of desire thing, I don't think there's anything wrong with that, and I only wish that I were held as an object of desire in a woman's eyes.

I am not surprised you said that. Really colorized my point about womanizing men.. the very men women steam and seethe about through gritted teeth.

As far as your looks-

You probably WOULD be better looking, if you were a little more pro life, and a little less "sex me up" about the whole thing...

The Grandmaster

Sailor Moon wrote:
As far as your looks-

You probably WOULD be better looking, if you were a little more pro life, and a little less "sex me up" about the whole thing...

:shock: :shock:

Whaaat?

How...but.....

How does one being Pro-Life or Pro-Choice change the appearance of one's face???????????????

Sailor Moon · Joined: 22 Sep 2005 Posts: 2782 Location: O-town, Florida

Perception. Have you ever seen an "ugly" person, who then acted really nice to you, or said something sweet, and they werent as ugly anymore?

Have you ever been in a fight with a girlfriend or a friend, and all the while, all you could think was how ugly that person was, because of how "ugly" they were TO YOU?

For instance- I might think a guy is totally hot, but then he calls someone a really ugly name, and just like that- hes ugly. He just no longer looks good.. its all perception.

fourtysixandtwo · Posted: Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:04 pm Post subject:

I don't get it. So you want abortion to be mad eillegal even more because it can be safely done illegally? I think you should take a step foreward. That idea is a step back.

Coral · Joined: 13 Apr 2004 Posts: 2791 Location: Hold 'em, Texas

fourtysixandtwo wrote: I don't get it. So you want abortion to be mad eillegal even more because it can be safely done illegally? I think you should take a step foreward. That idea is a step back.

Yes, if abortion is done legally by a medical professional it is less safe than an illegal one. Plus the fetus will not have rights if it is done illegally, but will have rights if done legally.

Actually, if you can make heads or tails out of her thesis please share it with us. I have no idea what gives anymore.

Sailor Moon · Joined: 22 Sep 2005 Posts: 2782 Location: O-town, Florida

Its probably just as safe, illegal, as it is legally, precentage of women- wise.. When I say its SAFER to be illegal, its because there will be fewer deaths and injuries statistically, or number wise as far as individual women are concerned.

Sooo.. a million abortions or so a year now, can be transformed to half a million illegal, still safe abortions, and half as many, or fewer injuries a year.

And this has nothing to do with fetal rights. I am tired... soooo tired of beating that dead horse. If a 3rd trimester fetus has protections, then whatever, I dont see that changing.

Making abortion illegal does not make it less safe or give fetuses explicit rights. It only gives women better overall health, due to fewer abortions, and gives fetuses a greater chance at life.

I really dont know whay y'all have to twist it around so much... QUIT HATIN :lol:

Coral · Joined: 13 Apr 2004 Posts: 2791 Location: Hold 'em, Texas

Sailor Moon wrote: Its probably just as safe, illegal, as it is legally, precentage of women- wise.. When I say its SAFER to be illegal, its because there will be fewer deaths and injuries statistically, or number wise as far as individual women are concerned.

Sooo.. a million abortions or so a year now, can be transformed to half a million illegal, still safe abortions, and half as many, or fewer injuries a year.

And this has nothing to do with fetal rights. I am tired... soooo tired of beating that dead horse. If a 3rd trimester fetus has protections, then whatever, I dont see that changing.

Making abortion illegal does not make it less safe or give fetuses explicit rights. It only gives women better overall health, due to fewer abortions, and gives fetuses a greater chance at life.

I really dont know whay y'all have to twist it around so much... QUIT HATIN :lol:

OK OK... :gmo:

Gilbert1908 · Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 5357 Location: Boston, MA

Sailor Moon wrote: Its probably just as safe, illegal, as it is legally, precentage of women- wise.. When I say its SAFER to be illegal, its because there will be fewer deaths and injuries statistically, or number wise as far as individual women are concerned.

Sooo.. a million abortions or so a year now, can be transformed to half a million illegal, still safe abortions, and half as many, or fewer injuries a year.

And this has nothing to do with fetal rights. I am tired... soooo tired of beating that dead horse. If a 3rd trimester fetus has protections, then whatever, I dont see that changing.

Making abortion illegal does not make it less safe or give fetuses explicit rights. It only gives women better overall health, due to fewer abortions, and gives fetuses a greater chance at life.

I really dont know whay y'all have to twist it around so much... QUIT HATIN :lol:

This is just never going to make sense to either side of the argument no matter how you spin it. Sorry.

Sailor Moon · Joined: 22 Sep 2005 Posts: 2782 Location: O-town, Florida

What doesnt make sense to you? Did you read the links? What are you reading into my posts to say that?

People are going to abort wven if it was illegal, but making abortion illegal will make the occurrance of abortion less.

I am not sure what it is youre confused about. Please specify.

Gilbert1908 · Joined: 26 Jan 2005 Posts: 5357 Location: Boston, MA

Sailor Moon wrote: What doesnt make sense to you? Did you read the links? What are you reading into my posts to say that?

People are going to abort wven if it was illegal, but making abortion illegal will make the occurrance of abortion less.

I am not sure what it is youre confused about. Please specify.

You and I have been through this and perhaps I am just not smart enough to see the logic in your argument. Sorry.

steen · Joined: 14 Jan 2006 Posts: 1430 Location: Upper Midwest

Sailor Moon wrote: .....I really dont know whay y'all have to twist it around so much... QUIT HATIN :lol: :arhhg: :bnghd: :bang: :koo:

Sailor Moon · Joined: 22 Sep 2005 Posts: 2782 Location: O-town, Florida

Gilbert1908 wrote: Sailor Moon wrote: What doesnt make sense to you? Did you read the links? What are you reading into my posts to say that?

People are going to abort wven if it was illegal, but making abortion illegal will make the occurrance of abortion less.

I am not sure what it is youre confused about. Please specify.

You and I have been through this and perhaps I am just not smart enough to see the logic in your argument. Sorry.

Which part? The "illegal is safer" part?

Please be specific as to what you are confused about and tell me why.

Selfish_Meme · Joined: 31 Jan 2006 Posts: 726

Quote: Illegal abortions are a major cause of death among mothers in many countries in Latin America, an international conference on the subject has been told.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3194680.stm

http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/2086/context/archive

Quote: There has been a marked tendency for opponents of abortion to increasingly make their case on the grounds that abortion is bad for women's health. In this kind of argument, the apparent motivation for opposition to abortion stems for concern with women's well-being. Yet scientific evidence finds no support for these claims.

http://www.spiked-online.com/Articles/0000000054E4.htm

I would think that driving abortions underground would be worse for womens health because they wouldn't go to 'Licensed Health Care Clinics' to have their abortions, they would have them in a back alley. With no antiseptics, pain killers or anti-biotics. The person doing the abortion would certainly not have a license from the AMA certifying their competence to carry out an abortion.

I don't think anyone wants to go back to the days of coat-hangers and coca-cola.

Sailor Moon · Joined: 22 Sep 2005 Posts: 2782 Location: O-town, Florida

Selfish_Meme wrote: Quote: Illegal abortions are a major cause of death among mothers in many countries in Latin America, an international conference on the subject has been told.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3194680.stm

http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/2086/context/archive

Quote: There has been a marked tendency for opponents of abortion to increasingly make their case on the grounds that abortion is bad for women's health. In this kind of argument, the apparent motivation for opposition to abortion stems for concern with women's well-being. Yet scientific evidence finds no support for these claims.

http://www.spiked-online.com/Articles/0000000054E4.htm

I would think that driving abortions underground would be worse for womens health because they wouldn't go to 'Licensed Health Care Clinics' to have their abortions, they would have them in a back alley. With no antiseptics, pain killers or anti-biotics. The person doing the abortion would certainly not have a license from the AMA certifying their competence to carry out an abortion.

I don't think anyone wants to go back to the days of coat-hangers and coca-cola.

WOW I cant believe you even believe that. Thats all pro choice population control LIES and rhetoric spun off by the elitest in the world, to avoid health care costs for their people, and to only keep the richest among us around, and do away with the poor or common people.

By the way, the coat hangar claim is a lie. It has been a known lie since at least 1960. There are SO many lies you need to learn about. Allow me to educate you. Please read or at least skim through these links:

http://tennesseerighttolife.org/human_life_issues/human_life_issues_abortion_lies_and_myths.htm

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=30098

http://www.justfacts.com/abortion.htm

The Anarchist · Posted: Tue Jan 31, 2006 8:52 pm Post subject:

Sailor Moon wrote: Perception. Have you ever seen an "ugly" person, who then acted really nice to you, or said something sweet, and they werent as ugly anymore?

Have you ever been in a fight with a girlfriend or a friend, and all the while, all you could think was how ugly that person was, because of how "ugly" they were TO YOU?

For instance- I might think a guy is totally hot, but then he calls someone a really ugly name, and just like that- hes ugly. He just no longer looks good.. its all perception.

I'm afraid my face is a whole different level. There's no getting used to it because no one wants to look at it for very long. When I do nice things I get looks like, why the F*ck do you think you cando that for me? That sort of thing. I'm afraid it is quite hopeless.

In addition, I'm pretty sure that if anything a person would be considered uglier for being anti-choice because they are only hurting people by being that way. There's no one being helped. Even if the fetus was a person, it doesn't have eyes at the times we're talking about. Or opinions. What you say just doens't make sense.

Sailor Moon · Joined: 22 Sep 2005 Posts: 2782 Location: O-town, Florida

Maybe you have some esteem issues to work on... It sounds that way to me!