Political Crossfire Forums

[Pebble]

Quote:
ID cards are of 'limited value'
Charles Clarke and ID card
Home Secretary Charles Clarke backs the plan
ID cards would be of "limited value" against terror and would not have prevented the London attacks in July, says the reviewer of anti-terror laws.

Liberal Democrat peer Lord Carlile said he had changed his mind on identity cards, which he had previously backed.

"I can't think of many terrorist incidents, in fact I can think of very few... that ID cards would have brought to an earlier end," he told GMTV.

The bill introducing the ID cards plan is currently going through Parliament.

It recently suffered two defeats in the Lords, with peers wanting an entirely voluntary scheme, and ministers wanting people applying for new passports and driving licences to be obliged to go on the ID card register.

"ID cards could be of some value in the fight against terrorism but they are probably of quite limited value," Lord Carlile told GMTV's Sunday programme.

Civil liberties fear

"They would be an advantage but that advantage has to be judged against the disadvantages which Parliament may see in ID cards.

"I certainly don't think the absence of ID cards could possibly have any connection with the events of last July.

"There may be a gain from the security viewpoint in the curtailment of civil liberties, but Parliament has to be the judge about whether the proportion is right."

He added: "I think Parliament is so unenthusiastic about the ID cards that, in reality, this is a debate rather than a reality.

"I don't think they will get through a compulsory ID card system immediately."

'Rushed' debate

Lord Carlile also said he thought the Terror Bill, debated by the Lords this month, had been "rushed".

"I don't think there was a need to rush through the current terror legislation. I would have preferred it to go to a scrutiny committee.

"I think it's led to certain issues being muddled by political debate rather than analysis."

Ministers say ID cards are needed to fight identity fraud and illegal immigration.

The plans were narrowly backed by the Commons last year but the House of Lords tabled a number of amendments aimed at making sure people have a choice.

Conservative leader David Cameron has called ID cards a "monument to the failure of big government".

His comments followed a report which estimated they would cost £14.5bn - which the government denies.

The government is likely to try to overturn the Lords defeats when the ID cards bill returns to the Commons.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4659228.stm



This bill is becoming more and more of a joke...and whilst we all laugh at it, we are however turning into a moderate police state.

[Windy]

I'ld like to know who the hell is going to carry around a card that costs hundreds of pounds when you can use a driving license anyway?

[maxtsu]

Windy wrote: I'ld like to know who the hell is going to carry around a card that costs hundreds of pounds when you can use a driving license anyway?
I agree. A lot of the countries utilise their drviers license as de-facto ID cards.
What is the point of making another ID card?
Just beef-up (upgrade) the drivers license.

Less money to the tax-payer.

[Saracen]

Pebble wrote: This bill is becoming more and more of a joke...and whilst we all laugh at it, we are however turning into a moderate police state.

This is scary... :shock:

[thundertaker]

Moath wrote: Pebble wrote: This bill is becoming more and more of a joke...and whilst we all laugh at it, we are however turning into a moderate police state.

This is scary... :shock:

Still not as scary as Saudi Arabia I'll wager.....

Anyway, this New Labour Government's actions aren't all bad news if you are a muslim:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=45571

[Saracen]

Well, that's mighty generous of them.
Saudi Arabia is still not close to a police state: at least they don't arrest you without a warrant.

[Pebble]

maxtsu wrote: Windy wrote: I'ld like to know who the hell is going to carry around a card that costs hundreds of pounds when you can use a driving license anyway?
I agree. A lot of the countries utilise their drviers license as de-facto ID cards.
What is the point of making another ID card?
Just beef-up (upgrade) the drivers license.

Less money to the tax-payer.

Well the whole point was some kind of giant database of biometric data all contained in your card, supposedly unforgable etc. :roll:

[thundertaker]

Moath wrote: Well, that's mighty generous of them.

Yeah, if I was a drug dealer in Bedfordshire, I'd convert to Islam faster than you could say 'Allah Akbar!' That way, I could keep the dibble waiting at the door, lest they offend Almighty Allah by catching a glimpse of my naked wife, whilst I had time to stash the drugs somewhere they couldn't find them (maybe a hollowed out, fake Quran that they weren't allowed to touch), and which in any case the sniffer dogs would be banned from inspecting because letting a dog enter the house of a suspect who happened to be muslim would be tantamount to spitting on the memory of the glorious prophet muhammad...:roll:
Hell, with silly rules like this, it's a wonder Britain's entire criminal class doesn't convert to Islam. They could stash all the illegal substances they wanted in their own homes, and there'd be nothing the police could do about it..
Quote: Saudi Arabia is still not close to a police state: at least they don't arrest you without a warrant.

LOL, I highly doubt the Saudi Police have higher standards of having 'reasonable grounds for suspicion' when arresting someone than in the UK, but even if they did, they're noot averse to arresting people, especially foreigners, and torturing them to confess to trumped-up charges in order to cover up their own domestic problems though are they?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,641563,00.html
http://www.angloarabia.com/torture/report.html
http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=852&id=865372003

[antonio62]

Pebble wrote: This bill is becoming more and more of a joke...and whilst we all laugh at it, we are however turning into a moderate police state.

I don't think it is funny in the slightest just very scary.

[Windy]

Pebble wrote: maxtsu wrote: Windy wrote: I'ld like to know who the hell is going to carry around a card that costs hundreds of pounds when you can use a driving license anyway?
I agree. A lot of the countries utilise their drviers license as de-facto ID cards.
What is the point of making another ID card?
Just beef-up (upgrade) the drivers license.

Less money to the tax-payer.

Well the whole point was some kind of giant database of biometric data all contained in your card, supposedly unforgable etc. :roll:

Unforgable until the next generation of computers come out when I bet it takes all of a month.
Anyway you'll still be able to use your driving license as ID so why not use that which costs £40 to replace rather than the take however much Blair says it'll cost and triple it ID card?

[Lord Hargreaves]

Yeah well, hands up anyone who didn't already think this?

The House of Lords in the last week has again proved to be the defender of British liberty after demanding to know the cost of an ID scheme and insisting that ID cards be voluntary.

Well since ID Cards will be useless if they're not complusory - keeping ID cards voluntary would be a major victory against them. I only worry about ID Cards becoming de facto complusory when the government and big business take them up...

[Windy]

Lord Hargreaves wrote: Yeah well, hands up anyone who didn't already think this?

The House of Lords in the last week has again proved to be the defender of British liberty after demanding to know the cost of an ID scheme and insisting that ID cards be voluntary.

Well since ID Cards will be useless if they're not complusory - keeping ID cards voluntary would be a major victory against them. I only worry about ID Cards becoming de facto complusory when the government and big business take them up...

Why would they? Can you honestly see a bank refusing to take a passport and or driving license as ID?
The government perhaps but they are still staffed by people and they will still be inclined to accept things other than an ID card.

[Pebble]

Windy wrote: Lord Hargreaves wrote: Yeah well, hands up anyone who didn't already think this?

The House of Lords in the last week has again proved to be the defender of British liberty after demanding to know the cost of an ID scheme and insisting that ID cards be voluntary.

Well since ID Cards will be useless if they're not complusory - keeping ID cards voluntary would be a major victory against them. I only worry about ID Cards becoming de facto complusory when the government and big business take them up...

Why would they? Can you honestly see a bank refusing to take a passport and or driving license as ID?
The government perhaps but they are still staffed by people and they will still be inclined to accept things other than an ID card.

According to my local branch, my passport wasn't good enough...they wanted a gas bill... :roll: :lol:

[Irish Gal]

Ive got nothing in principle against ID cards,

I just dont understand how they supposedly prevent terrorism.

[Lord Hargreaves]

Irish Gal wrote: Ive got nothing in principle against ID cards,

I just dont understand how they supposedly prevent terrorism.

Well neither can anyone, seeing as that is the point of this thread.

[tehjonny]

I've been talking to quite a few of my family and friends over this, and the general consensus (although this is only a small group, not representative lol :shock: ) is that we won't carry them.
My grandfather was especially adamant he wasn't going to pay around 300 quid for a 'compulsory' card, he started raving about money making schemes at one point *wink wink*.

If more people do this, e.g. mass disobedience, are they really going to arrest us all? e.g...lets guess-timate 2million people who simply out right refuse. Are the government seriously going to create that many *ahem* criminals?
I think not. Civil disobedience will scupper this one very quickly once it's put into place in my opinion.

I for one would gladly get dragged down to local station by the police over something so trivial, just to have a good laugh (athough perhaps my bank account would not laugh so hard...awww)! So, yeah, I shan't be carrying one, or paying for one. Period.

[Lord Hargreaves]

A mass civil disobedience effort might be interesting, especially if it was on the kind of scale as the poll tax. However I suspect protests would be more on the fox hunting size - not large enough to effect anything. Although I'd be extremely happy to be proved wrong.

[Irish Gal]

One annoying side effect of the ID cards is that it will scupper the Act of Ireland - Meaning that well need passports to travel between the UK and Eire. Thats a big pain for someone like me who frequently travels between the two countries.

[thefranzkafkafront]

Lord Hargreaves wrote: A mass civil disobedience effort might be interesting, especially if it was on the kind of scale as the poll tax. However I suspect protests would be more on the fox hunting size - not large enough to effect anything. Although I'd be extremely happy to be proved wrong.

Im up for a london tea party.

[tehjonny]

Lord Hargreaves: I don't think we'd need to protest, the protest could simply be out-right refusal by a (hopefully fairly substantial) number of people.

However, it depends on whether people would be willing to risk arrest, or possible fines.