Political Crossfire Forums

[joshdelzell]

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[Rilzic]

Well the achievement of our struggle is not to struggle. So do we like struggle? No. Leftover animal instinct junk. The only people that say "it is human nature to enjoy the struggle more than the achievement." are one of two things which in a material world are the same. what they are, are the Winners. If your struggling for dear life, in a business takeover, or a war, who wins? a minority. That’s why we struggle to not struggle.

Also I don’t think it is that we like struggle more but only that achievement is a brief feeling. For instance say you friend is in trouble with a guy in the maffia and owes a lot of money. He gets assaulted and such and threatened that he needs to pay back the money. You help you friend over time and in the nic of time you pay it back before the bad guy kills your friend. Now ya your going to say wow that was exciting, your adrenalin was pumping and brag about it for years to come. But the best part of it all would be the instant you paid back the money and let out the breath you didn’t know you were holding and feel like 1000 lbs lifted of your back. At that moment will be one of the best feeling you ‘ll ever have but it’s fleeting and you’ll forget it. You know the saying lifes hard but we live for the few good times.

Another thing to consider is romanticism as a intellectual movement. Not as in being a romantic, but the movement in 18th century Europe. They considered emotion to be as important or more so then reason. That in struggle a person is more “alive” and that there is more to life then just order, society, and harmony. There are stories of a few romantics that would do weird things like volunteer for the army in war time not for the country but for the rush, they go in to extreme sports of their time, did drugs and other crazy stuff. As we know there is a little bit of that in everyone but order and reason mostly win because the simply fact that life is harsh and we all know that their will come a time when order and reason and science will save a sick loved one and nature and emotions while good won’t be enough. My point being that people chose to struggle against struggle in the hope of ending it and would end it if we could but also know that to be able to struggle is necessary for survival and like anything practice makes perfect. But god with all the tricks he likes to play with us gave us a imperfect would where struggle never ends.

So we struggle against struggle because we don’t like it. Although achievement comes of struggle and remains the goal, it isn’t the rewarding part because we have evolved in a world of never ending struggle. So we adapted to accept struggle as a part of life and by embracing struggle we are rewarded with what we call the brief moment called achievement before the cycle continues and our struggle begins again.

.... I don’t think there is a difference between achievement and struggle. Their two sides of the same coin.

Anyway I just let my mind wonder for a bit. Hope you can make any sense of it I sure as hell can’t. But I do like my idea about how we struggle to not struggle which is a never ending struggle. Stupid humans.

Disclaimer: none of this states struggle is inherently good

[jawsome]

this whole topic presupposes that there are inherent psychological traits in all humans that pertains to this...i'm not so sure about that.

sorry. :lol:

[Achilles The Myrmidon]

Ithaca
When you set out on your journey to Ithaca,
pray that the road is long,
full of adventure, full of knowledge.
The Lestrygonians and the Cyclops,
the angry Poseidon -- do not fear them:
You will never find such as these on your path,
if your thoughts remain lofty, if a fine
emotion touches your spirit and your body.
The Lestrygonians and the Cyclops,
the fierce Poseidon you will never encounter,
if you do not carry them within your soul,
if your soul does not set them up before you.

Pray that the road is long.
That the summer mornings are many, when,
with such pleasure, with such joy
you will enter ports seen for the first time;
stop at Phoenician markets,
and purchase fine merchandise,
mother-of-pearl and coral, amber and ebony,
and sensual perfumes of all kinds,
as many sensual perfumes as you can;
visit many Egyptian cities,
to learn and learn from scholars.

Always keep Ithaca in your mind.
To arrive there is your ultimate goal.
But do not hurry the voyage at all.
It is better to let it last for many years;
and to anchor at the island when you are old,
rich with all you have gained on the way,
not expecting that Ithaca will offer you riches.

Ithaca has given you the beautiful voyage.
Without her you would have never set out on the road.
She has nothing more to give you.

And if you find her poor, Ithaca has not deceived you.
Wise as you have become, with so much experience,
you must already have understood what Ithacas mean.

Constantine P. Cavafy (1911)

[Saracen]

Beautiful poetry, Achilles, but you forgot to state an opinion. :wink:

[joshdelzell]

Both of those help me quite a bit, Rilz you gave me a lot more interesting ideas and I can definately expand on those, and my teacher LOVES poetry so im pretty sure i can incorporate that poem somehow... keep the idea coming!

[Vicini]

The poetry is his opinion. This is a foretelling to Odysseus to tell him to enjoy the struggles on his way home so that his goal doesnt disappoint him. I believe that Achilles put it beautifully. If we are so focused on the achievement that we forget the struggle, we lose the time of our life taht we spent struggling.

[Borommakot]

I was thinking about writing a topic like this lol. I believe that the struggle is more important. If you can do everything without have to work for it then after a little while nothing would have meaning.

[greeneye]

Cool topic..

Some more thoughts....

It's in the struggle (the process) where we learn and grow. It's the struggle that becomes the experience that makes us hopefully a bit more wiser and smarter for the next round of trying to achieve.

It's the struggle and challenge that we are often forced to endure that gives us the opportunity to learn and cope with life. And if we don't learn to deal and cope from any given struggle for any given challenge to attain an achievement, it often seems that life will put back on our doorstep, at a different time, another opportunity to reach that achievement with its challenges (struggle). And when the "sense of struggle" is no more, often times that challenge no longer bothers us and we move on to strive for new achievements.

So at the end of the day (our life), (it seems from reading life accounts of great men and women who have lived) it's not the actual achievements that makes the man who he is (his character), but it is the process (struggle and challenge that we endure) that really defines us.