Political Crossfire Forums

[Prole]

Taking a step back from the merits of abortion and whether it is right or wrong, I would like to take a look at the driving activists in America regarding abortion see what arguements and methods they are focussing on, and take a look at whether they are being persuasive or not. How and with whom do these groups associate themselves, both in terms of political and other social groups? Whose support are the focussing on gaining? Are there any regional or otherwise differences in the approaches being taken? Most importantly, are they being effective in garnering support? And would they be more effective taking a different focus?

For the moment, let's try to not to find fault in the arguments of each group, but instead collaborate to try to get as accurate a picture of the discourse over abortion's legality in the bigger picture. Also, remember activist groups for most issues including abortion and on both sides of the debate are guilty of oversimplifying, as it is the sad truth that it is easier to rally support for something by microfocussing on an easy point than to examine all sides of the issue; you might not find parts which support your arguement on other sides, as well as being a great deal to ask of your (often rather apathetic) support.

To me, it seems that anti-choice activists focus mostly on the "It's a baby, so it is wrong to kill it" arguement. Strong emphasis is put on a Christian morals that "Though shalt not murder," and pictures of aborted fetuses, especially those done late term. The main support comes from right-wing Christians, especially those in the south-east and mid-west.

The pro-choice movement, on the other hand, tend to focus largely on the "It's a woman's body, so she has the right to do with it as she wants" arguement, and try to keep religion out of the question. Strong emphasis is put on personal freedom, especially in the sense that abortion is a women's reproductive rights issues. The support base is generally anyone except right-wing Christians (and Scientologists?), and regionally tends to be more west coast and northeast states.

Do you agree with my assessment of the general activists' methods and support, and do you have anything to add? For now, let's just try to get an idea of the activists themselves; hopefully, after, we can address whether it is being effective and what measures would be more effective for them.

[Coral]

It's a good basic assessment. The issues are much deeper. The activists in this case are pro-lifers. Pro-choicers are simply electing to use their constitutional rights to freedom and liberty.

As much as I don't encourage anyone to have one, the implications of granting an embryo human rights is absurd. Do people not understand the precedent it sets? It would give the government the ability to legislate around even more infringements on personal liberty. For example, if an embryo has rights then anyone who may possibly be carrying one could be considered criminally negligent should they harm it, if the same line of thinking is taken to the next level. Therefore, if a woman has sex she would then have to wait to ensure she is not pregnant before engaging in activity that might put the potential embryo at risk. Don't think it wouldn't happen? When the government is in the back pocket of a religious agenda anything is possible.

Take away this freedom and you're well on your away to a can of worms and a draconian society.

[Sailor Moon]

Prole wrote:

To me, it seems that anti-choice activists focus mostly on the "It's a baby, so it is wrong to kill it" arguement. Strong emphasis is put on a Christian morals that "Though shalt not murder," and pictures of aborted fetuses, especially those done late term. The main support comes from right-wing Christians, especially those in the south-east and mid-west.

First of all, if you want to attempt to have a real discussion on the subject of abortion and portray both sides, then you need not be so trollish or flaming in the way you just kindof throw PRO LIFE people together as 1- anti choice and 2- right wing religious.. its counterproductive.

I can say a few things to flame you, too.. examples to follow..

Quote: The pro-choice movement, on the other hand, tend to focus largely on the "It's a woman's body, so she has the right to do with it as she wants" arguement, and try to keep religion out of the question. Strong emphasis is put on personal freedom, especially in the sense that abortion is a women's reproductive rights issues. The support base is generally anyone except right-wing Christians (and Scientologists?), and regionally tends to be more west coast and northeast states.

Oh I guess you meant to say "womanizing group" rather than "pro choice", or maybe the "nazis" or perhaps even "those lacking in the accountability sector" group????

Flaming can go both ways. See???? Dont call pro life "anti choice".. its not about us exploitating women. We can argue this one all day, can and have, so dont BS me on it. I will not stand for that.

Quote: Do you agree with my assessment of the general activists' methods and support, and do you have anything to add? For now, let's just try to get an idea of the activists themselves; hopefully, after, we can address whether it is being effective and what measures would be more effective for them.

I dont agree at all, because I think you are just flaming here. If you want to start a post on the activists positions, dont flame pro lifers by calling them "anti choice", while asking for opinions!!!!!!!!!!!! :shock:

[Prole]

Sailor Moon wrote: First of all, if you want to attempt to have a real discussion on the subject of abortion and portray both sides, then you need not be so trollish or flaming in the way you just kindof throw PRO LIFE people together as 1- anti choice

People that campaign against abortion as a choice are, by definition, against a choice, or anti-choice. This is not flaming, or trolling. This is using the English language. Crikey.

Sailor Moon wrote:
2- right wing religious.. its counterproductive.

Most of the people that anti-choice in America are right wing and Christian. Not all, but most. I am of course speaking in generalities, but factual generalities nonetheless. Again, this is not flaming, or trolling. This is stating facts about the political and religious affiliation of those who oppose abortion as a legal choice.

Sailor Moon wrote: Flaming can go both ways. See???? Dont call pro life "anti choice".. its not about us exploitating women. We can argue this one all day, can and have, so dont BS me on it. I will not stand for that.
Please, if all you are going to do is moan about the English language and flame, then abstain from posting in this thread. Likewise, microfocussing on a detail which you take issue with (without any real justification whatsoever) is in no way productive.

[Sailor Moon]

Prole wrote: Sailor Moon wrote: First of all, if you want to attempt to have a real discussion on the subject of abortion and portray both sides, then you need not be so trollish or flaming in the way you just kindof throw PRO LIFE people together as 1- anti choice

People that campaign against abortion as a choice are, by definition, against a choice, or anti-choice. This is not flaming, or trolling. This is using the English language. Crikey.

So, I can now call you "pro killing" or "pro abortion", maybe "anti life", rather than pro choice? By your own logic, yes. Dont be offended...

Quote: Sailor Moon wrote:
2- right wing religious.. its counterproductive.

Most of the people that anti-choice in America are right wing and Christian. Not all, but most. I am of course speaking in generalities, but factual generalities nonetheless. Again, this is not flaming, or trolling. This is stating facts about the political and religious affiliation of those who oppose abortion as a legal choice.

I dont believe that. There are plenty of religious people who are pro choice, and likewise unreligious people who are pro life. Youre generalizations do nothing for this debate. Anyways, I could call pro choice people "satanic"... how would you like it? By your own logic, it would be true. Satan = horrible death, so its true.

Quote: Sailor Moon wrote: Flaming can go both ways. See???? Dont call pro life "anti choice".. its not about us exploitating women. We can argue this one all day, can and have, so dont BS me on it. I will not stand for that.
Please, if all you are going to do is moan about the English language and flame, then abstain from posting in this thread. Likewise, microfocussing on a detail which you take issue with (without any real justification whatsoever) is in no way productive.

I am pointing out the flaws in your argument, on the basis of flaming and trolling. If you want a conversation with people debating abortion, then you need to try to do it without intentionally pissing everyone who is pro life off.

If pro life is anti choice, then pro choice is anti life. Smooches!

[Prole]

Sailor Moon wrote: Prole wrote: Sailor Moon wrote: First of all, if you want to attempt to have a real discussion on the subject of abortion and portray both sides, then you need not be so trollish or flaming in the way you just kindof throw PRO LIFE people together as 1- anti choice

People that campaign against abortion as a choice are, by definition, against a choice, or anti-choice. This is not flaming, or trolling. This is using the English language. Crikey.

So, I can now call you "pro killing" or "pro abortion", maybe "anti life", rather than pro choice? By your own logic, yes. Dont be offended...

Pro-choice and pro-abortion are completely different things. Pro-choice people want abortions to be a choice, and could care less whether people use the choice or not (and truth be told, would probably prefer that there be less abortions). Pro-abortion people want abortions to happen.

Sailor Moon wrote: I dont believe that. There are plenty of religious people who are pro choice, and likewise unreligious people who are pro life. Youre generalizations do nothing for this debate.

It is true that MOST of the constituents of the anti-choice movement are right-wing and religious, while most people of the pro-choice movement regardthemselves as not having both of those characteristics (though quite a few are religious). Not all, as you correctly point out, but most.

Furthermore, this is a debate about general attitudes and methods of the activitsts on both sides of the abortion debate. Generalizations do nothing for the debate? The debate IS generalizations.

Sailor Moon wrote:
Anyways, I could call pro choice people "satanic"... how would you like it?

I wouldn't care much personally, but would be disappointed though unsurprised to see you again resort to such thinly veiled attacks.

Sailor Moon wrote:
By your own logic, it would be true. Satan = horrible death, so its true.
No, that is your logic. And please let's try to keep whether abortion is right or wrong out of this thread; I'm trying to focus on the people behind the movements, not whether they are justified in their beliefs.

Sailor Moon wrote:
I am pointing out the flaws in your argument, on the basis of flaming and trolling. If you want a conversation with people debating abortion, then you need to try to do it without intentionally pissing everyone who is pro life off.

If pro life is anti choice, then pro choice is anti life. Smooches!
This is not a debate about abortion, but about the groups backing and opposing abortion's legality. And if you're so pissed off, then please abstain from posting in this thread. I am confident that there are other individuals who can and will contribute, whose fuses are much longer than yours, and who can do so without grossly misinterpreting the English language and attempting to derail a subject with such misinterpretations.

[Sailor Moon]

Prole wrote: Sailor Moon wrote: Prole wrote: Sailor Moon wrote: First of all, if you want to attempt to have a real discussion on the subject of abortion and portray both sides, then you need not be so trollish or flaming in the way you just kindof throw PRO LIFE people together as 1- anti choice

People that campaign against abortion as a choice are, by definition, against a choice, or anti-choice. This is not flaming, or trolling. This is using the English language. Crikey.

So, I can now call you "pro killing" or "pro abortion", maybe "anti life", rather than pro choice? By your own logic, yes. Dont be offended...

Pro-choice and pro-abortion are completely different things. Pro-choice people want abortions to be a choice, and could care less whether people use the choice or not (and truth be told, would probably prefer that there be less abortions). Pro-abortion people want abortions to happen.

So it doesnt make sense at all that you want to keep abortion legal just because you are pro choice. The choice will still exist even if abortion is illegal, and as I have described before, it will be much safer.

Quote: Sailor Moon wrote: I dont believe that. There are plenty of religious people who are pro choice, and likewise unreligious people who are pro life. Youre generalizations do nothing for this debate.

It is true that MOST of the constituents of the anti-choice movement are right-wing and religious, while most people of the pro-choice movement regardthemselves as not having both of those characteristics (though quite a few are religious). Not all, as you correctly point out, but most.

Furthermore, this is a debate about general attitudes and methods of the activitsts on both sides of the abortion debate. Generalizations do nothing for the debate? The debate IS generalizations.

OK Well, I can generalise, then- pro death people (pro choice, so to speak) are selfish and self hating, in general. How was that? So this is a thread where we can just say whatever with no consequence? Wow.

:clap:

Quote: Sailor Moon wrote:
Anyways, I could call pro choice people "satanic"... how would you like it?

I wouldn't care much personally, but would be disappointed though unsurprised to see you again resort to such thinly veiled attacks.

Oh I see... My generalizations are "attacks" while yours are "truths"... hypocrite.
Quote:
Sailor Moon wrote:
By your own logic, it would be true. Satan = horrible death, so its true.
No, that is your logic. And please let's try to keep whether abortion is right or wrong out of this thread; I'm trying to focus on the people behind the movements, not whether they are justified in their beliefs.

But you started the generalizations by grouping pro lifers into what you describe as "anti choice", and are calling for generalizations. Clearly, this is a debate about generalizations, and a hate filled thread indeed. You ASKED for it.

Quote: Sailor Moon wrote:
I am pointing out the flaws in your argument, on the basis of flaming and trolling. If you want a conversation with people debating abortion, then you need to try to do it without intentionally pissing everyone who is pro life off.

If pro life is anti choice, then pro choice is anti life. Smooches!
This is not a debate about abortion, but about the groups backing and opposing abortion's legality. And if you're so pissed off, then please abstain from posting in this thread. I am confident that there are other individuals who can and will contribute, whose fuses are much longer than yours, and who can do so without grossly misinterpreting the English language and attempting to derail a subject with such misinterpretations.

Yourself included. Pro life is no more anti choice, then pro choice is anti life. Dont BS me, and I wont mess with you. You asked for this. Youre calling for generalizations. I am asking for civility. Why cant you just be civil?

[The Grandmaster]

Sailor Moon wrote: Prole wrote: Sailor Moon wrote: Prole wrote: Sailor Moon wrote: First of all, if you want to attempt to have a real discussion on the subject of abortion and portray both sides, then you need not be so trollish or flaming in the way you just kindof throw PRO LIFE people together as 1- anti choice

People that campaign against abortion as a choice are, by definition, against a choice, or anti-choice. This is not flaming, or trolling. This is using the English language. Crikey.

So, I can now call you "pro killing" or "pro abortion", maybe "anti life", rather than pro choice? By your own logic, yes. Dont be offended...

Pro-choice and pro-abortion are completely different things. Pro-choice people want abortions to be a choice, and could care less whether people use the choice or not (and truth be told, would probably prefer that there be less abortions). Pro-abortion people want abortions to happen.

So it doesnt make sense at all that you want to keep abortion legal just because you are pro choice. The choice will still exist even if abortion is illegal, and as I have described before, it will be much safer.

The choice exists to do anything, whether it is legal or not. Because this choice exists, doesn’t not make the legality of it any less important. The main point here, is that the pro-choice crowd does not want abortion criminalized, where as the ‘pro-life’ crowd does. If a choice can lead to heavy punishment, then it’s legality is most certainly important. In addition, your previous posts in this sequence of quotes indicate that pro-choice is both pro-killing and pro abortion; however, both are misnomers, as will be illustrated next. Pro killing is for the avocation of the killing of a being. However, since abortion to a point is not the killing of a being, then pro-killing would not be accurate, no more so than a doctor operating on a tumor would be pro-killing. The term is of course, meant to be misleading. Pro-abortion is also a misnomer, and a common one, for it implies the actual avocation of abortion, or actually the tendency to be pro-active in the decision of having an abortion. This is also inaccurate, since pro-choice people do not advocate people having abortions pro-actively, or for the hell of it, but only that the choice should exists without criminalization for those that do want it. And you still haven’t showed me how self induced abortions are safer.

Sailor Moon wrote: Quote: Sailor Moon wrote: I dont believe that. There are plenty of religious people who are pro choice, and likewise unreligious people who are pro life. Youre generalizations do nothing for this debate.

It is true that MOST of the constituents of the anti-choice movement are right-wing and religious, while most people of the pro-choice movement regardthemselves as not having both of those characteristics (though quite a few are religious). Not all, as you correctly point out, but most.

Furthermore, this is a debate about general attitudes and methods of the activitsts on both sides of the abortion debate. Generalizations do nothing for the debate? The debate IS generalizations.

OK Well, I can generalise, then- pro death people (pro choice, so to speak) are selfish and self hating, in general. How was that? So this is a thread where we can just say whatever with no consequence? Wow.

*clappy hands*

You most certainly can generalize that if you wish. Indeed. However, the difference between the generalization that Prole made, and you, is that his is warranted, and yours is not. You are saying yours out of frustration and anger, which is common, when in reality, you have no statistics to back up your claims of pro-choice people being selfish and self-hating. The Anti-Choice crowd…and yes…it is by definition accurate to say ant-choice, are largely religious, and use ‘god’s word’ as their main arguments for abortion being ‘wrong’ and ‘a sin’ with time, one could demonstrate this with statistics. However, my guess is, you will be hard pressed to back your claim up that the pro-choice crowd is self hating.:-D

Sailor Moon wrote: Quote: Sailor Moon wrote:
Anyways, I could call pro choice people "satanic"... how would you like it?

I wouldn't care much personally, but would be disappointed though unsurprised to see you again resort to such thinly veiled attacks.

Oh I see... My generalizations are "attacks" while yours are "truths"... hypocrite.

He is not being hypocritical, but rather, factual. Clearly, one can tell by the very nature of the post above, “I could call pro choice people "satanic"... how would you like it?” that once again, you have gotten angry while reading the posts and are shooting from the hip again. Now you need to demonstrate, if you are to be serious, that all, or the majority of pro-choice people are Satan Worshippers. I suppose you better get started. You’ve got a lot of work to do.

Some generalizations are warranted. When we say “the sky is blue” we are generalizing. It isn’t always blue. Sometimes it’s black or grey or another color. But the generalization is warranted, because often enough, the sky is blue, and this is understood universally. When we say “horses have hooves” we are doing the same thing. Not all horses have them. Some have lost them due to injury or sickness. But nevertheless, the generalization is warranted as it almost universally true. The same is true for the anti-choice crowd being mostly from the religious right.


Sailor Moon wrote: Quote:
Sailor Moon wrote:
By your own logic, it would be true. Satan = horrible death, so its true.
No, that is your logic. And please let's try to keep whether abortion is right or wrong out of this thread; I'm trying to focus on the people behind the movements, not whether they are justified in their beliefs.

But you started the generalizations by grouping pro lifers into what you describe as "anti choice", and are calling for generalizations. Clearly, this is a debate about generalizations, and a hate filled thread indeed. You ASKED for it.

Prole asked for nothing. He was quite correct in fact, when he said pro-life is anti-choice, by the very intrinsic nature of the language and words. When one does not want the choice of a person to be legal, then they by definition are against this choice being legal, thus, they are anti-‘allowing choice.” Thus, anti-choice. Why is this so hard?

Sailor Moon wrote: Quote: Sailor Moon wrote:
I am pointing out the flaws in your argument, on the basis of flaming and trolling. If you want a conversation with people debating abortion, then you need to try to do it without intentionally pissing everyone who is pro life off.

If pro life is anti choice, then pro choice is anti life. Smooches!
This is not a debate about abortion, but about the groups backing and opposing abortion's legality. And if you're so pissed off, then please abstain from posting in this thread. I am confident that there are other individuals who can and will contribute, whose fuses are much longer than yours, and who can do so without grossly misinterpreting the English language and attempting to derail a subject with such misinterpretations.

Yourself included. Pro life is no more anti choice, then pro choice is anti life. Dont BS me, and I wont mess with you. You asked for this. Youre calling for generalizations. I am asking for civility. Why cant you just be civil?

You are getting angry again. As illustrated above, pro-choice is not anti life, because to a point, a life isn’t being taken. However, the criminalization of abortion is always the inability to make a choice by penalty of law. This is not difficult. And Prole is always civil, and you know this to, whether you want to admit it or not. In all honestly, who usually calls people names and begins insulting in their threads?

[Prole]

The focus of the thread is generalizations of THE PEOPLE WHO SUPPORT OR OPPOSE ABORTION'S LEGALITY, regarding their demographics and the methods they use. Not broad attacks. Geddit?

Sailor Moon wrote: Oh I see... My generalizations are "attacks" while yours are "truths"... hypocrite.
Most of the people in America that oppose abortion's legality are right-wing and Christian. This is a fact.

You are inferring that people who support abortion's legality are evil. This is an attack.

Do you see the difference?

Sailor Moon wrote: Yourself included. Pro life is no more anti choice, then pro choice is anti life. Dont BS me, and I wont mess with you. You asked for this. Youre calling for generalizations. I am asking for civility. Why cant you just be civil?
Get off your high horse then, and address the matter at hand. Do you agree with my assessment of those who support or oppose abortion's legality, and if not then why? I have been nothing but civil thus far, and you have done nothing but claim that my calling people against a choice to be "anti-choice" (which is simple but proper use of the English language) means that I am hateful. I was hoping that we could gain some insight into the political situation and driving forces behind abortion, and not get hung up on whether abortion is right or wrong. If you have no insight to offer, or are so obsessed with your unjustified opposition to my correct usage of the English language, then I would like to reiterate my request that you abstain from posting in this thread.

[Sailor Moon]

TheGrandmaster1 wrote: Sailor Moon wrote: Prole wrote: Sailor Moon wrote: Prole wrote: Sailor Moon wrote: First of all, if you want to attempt to have a real discussion on the subject of abortion and portray both sides, then you need not be so trollish or flaming in the way you just kindof throw PRO LIFE people together as 1- anti choice

People that campaign against abortion as a choice are, by definition, against a choice, or anti-choice. This is not flaming, or trolling. This is using the English language. Crikey.

So, I can now call you "pro killing" or "pro abortion", maybe "anti life", rather than pro choice? By your own logic, yes. Dont be offended...

Pro-choice and pro-abortion are completely different things. Pro-choice people want abortions to be a choice, and could care less whether people use the choice or not (and truth be told, would probably prefer that there be less abortions). Pro-abortion people want abortions to happen.

So it doesnt make sense at all that you want to keep abortion legal just because you are pro choice. The choice will still exist even if abortion is illegal, and as I have described before, it will be much safer.

The choice exists to do anything, whether it is legal or not. Because this choice exists, doesn’t not make the legality of it any less important. The main point here, is that the pro-choice crowd does not want abortion criminalized, where as the ‘pro-life’ crowd does. If a choice can lead to heavy punishment, then it’s legality is most certainly important. In addition, your previous posts in this sequence of quotes indicate that pro-choice is both pro-killing and pro abortion; however, both are misnomers, as will be illustrated next. Pro killing is for the avocation of the killing of a being. However, since abortion to a point is not the killing of a being, then pro-killing would not be accurate, no more so than a doctor operating on a tumor would be pro-killing. The term is of course, meant to be misleading. Pro-abortion is also a misnomer, and a common one, for it implies the actual avocation of abortion, or actually the tendency to be pro-active in the decision of having an abortion. This is also inaccurate, since pro-choice people do not advocate people having abortions pro-actively, or for the hell of it, but only that the choice should exists without criminalization for those that do want it. And you still haven’t showed me how self induced abortions are safer.

Dude, youre entire logic is flawed. You want all choices to be legal. Thats insane. Lines have to be drawn. Laws are made to draw lines. You cross the lines, you pay. Thats how the world works. Deal with it.

Quote: Sailor Moon wrote: Quote: Sailor Moon wrote: I dont believe that. There are plenty of religious people who are pro choice, and likewise unreligious people who are pro life. Youre generalizations do nothing for this debate.

It is true that MOST of the constituents of the anti-choice movement are right-wing and religious, while most people of the pro-choice movement regardthemselves as not having both of those characteristics (though quite a few are religious). Not all, as you correctly point out, but most.

Furthermore, this is a debate about general attitudes and methods of the activitsts on both sides of the abortion debate. Generalizations do nothing for the debate? The debate IS generalizations.

OK Well, I can generalise, then- pro death people (pro choice, so to speak) are selfish and self hating, in general. How was that? So this is a thread where we can just say whatever with no consequence? Wow.

*clappy hands*

You most certainly can generalize that if you wish. Indeed. However, the difference between the generalization that Prole made, and you, is that his is warranted, and yours is not. You are saying yours out of frustration and anger, which is common, when in reality, you have no statistics to back up your claims of pro-choice people being selfish and self-hating. The Anti-Choice crowd…and yes…it is by definition accurate to say ant-choice, are largely religious, and use ‘god’s word’ as their main arguments for abortion being ‘wrong’ and ‘a sin’ with time, one could demonstrate this with statistics. However, my guess is, you will be hard pressed to back your claim up that the pro-choice crowd is self hating.:-D

Need I quote a certain post you made? I have plenty of evidence. I have posted it recurrent times, while you have ignored it over and over again, or "reported" me, for posting the truth. Sorry, buddy, but you are living proof of it, and thats the cold hard truth.

Quote: Sailor Moon wrote: Quote: Sailor Moon wrote:
Anyways, I could call pro choice people "satanic"... how would you like it?

I wouldn't care much personally, but would be disappointed though unsurprised to see you again resort to such thinly veiled attacks.

Oh I see... My generalizations are "attacks" while yours are "truths"... hypocrite.

He is not being hypocritical, but rather, factual. Clearly, one can tell by the very nature of the post above, “I could call pro choice people "satanic"... how would you like it?” that once again, you have gotten angry while reading the posts and are shooting from the hip again. Now you need to demonstrate, if you are to be serious, that all, or the majority of pro-choice people are Satan Worshippers. I suppose you better get started. You’ve got a lot of work to do.

You need to prove that all pro lifers are anti choice, first. Its his thread, not mine. He holds the birden of proof. All I have to do is show how fallicious his claims are.

Quote: Some generalizations are warranted. When we say “the sky is blue” we are generalizing. It isn’t always blue. Sometimes it’s black or grey or another color. But the generalization is warranted, because often enough, the sky is blue, and this is understood universally. When we say “horses have hooves” we are doing the same thing. Not all horses have them. Some have lost them due to injury or sickness. But nevertheless, the generalization is warranted as it almost universally true. The same is true for the anti-choice crowd being mostly from the religious right.

Again, what anti choice crowd? Oh you mean pro life? Riiiight... Well, Like I said, the pro death crowd is mostly atheist, which, in my mind is a temptation of Satan, which clearly equates to satanic.

What- evaaaaaaa

Quote:
Sailor Moon wrote: Quote:
Sailor Moon wrote:
By your own logic, it would be true. Satan = horrible death, so its true.
No, that is your logic. And please let's try to keep whether abortion is right or wrong out of this thread; I'm trying to focus on the people behind the movements, not whether they are justified in their beliefs.

But you started the generalizations by grouping pro lifers into what you describe as "anti choice", and are calling for generalizations. Clearly, this is a debate about generalizations, and a hate filled thread indeed. You ASKED for it.

Prole asked for nothing. He was quite correct in fact, when he said pro-life is anti-choice, by the very intrinsic nature of the language and words. When one does not want the choice of a person to be legal, then they by definition are against this choice being legal, thus, they are anti-‘allowing choice.” Thus, anti-choice. Why is this so hard?

OK pro choice is the same as pro death... oh the war on semantics. :clap: brilliant.


Quote: Sailor Moon wrote: Quote: Sailor Moon wrote:
I am pointing out the flaws in your argument, on the basis of flaming and trolling. If you want a conversation with people debating abortion, then you need to try to do it without intentionally pissing everyone who is pro life off.

If pro life is anti choice, then pro choice is anti life. Smooches!
This is not a debate about abortion, but about the groups backing and opposing abortion's legality. And if you're so pissed off, then please abstain from posting in this thread. I am confident that there are other individuals who can and will contribute, whose fuses are much longer than yours, and who can do so without grossly misinterpreting the English language and attempting to derail a subject with such misinterpretations.

Yourself included. Pro life is no more anti choice, then pro choice is anti life. Dont BS me, and I wont mess with you. You asked for this. Youre calling for generalizations. I am asking for civility. Why cant you just be civil?

You are getting angry again. As illustrated above, pro-choice is not anti life, because to a point, a life isn’t being taken. However, the criminalization of abortion is always the inability to make a choice by penalty of law. This is not difficult. And Prole is always civil, and you know this to, whether you want to admit it or not. In all honestly, who usually calls people names and begins insulting in their threads?

A life IS taken, its just not a born life. And no this is not difficult, to most people. Even Prole understands what a life is... :roll:

[Prole]

Sailor Moon wrote: Dude, youre entire logic is flawed. You want all choices to be legal. Thats insane. Lines have to be drawn. Laws are made to draw lines. You cross the lines, you pay. Thats how the world works. Deal with it.
That lines have to be drawn and where they should be drawn is entirely your subjective opinion, and one that I would like to ask again that you discuss in other threads. The subject of this thread was not intended to be whether abortion is acceptable or not, but the groups advocating and opposing its legal acceptability.

Sailor Moon wrote: Need I quote a certain post you made? I have plenty of evidence. I have posted it recurrent times, while you have ignored it over and over again, or "reported" me, for posting the truth. Sorry, buddy, but you are living proof of it, and thats the cold hard truth.
Again, I ask that you not derail the subject in favor of abortion's safety; it is not the subject for this thread, and there is another thread with the same subject active as well.

Sailor Moon wrote: You need to prove that all pro lifers are anti choice, first. Its his thread, not mine. He holds the birden of proof. All I have to do is show how fallicious his claims are.
This is not meant to be a topic discussing every single person on either side of a debate; there are far too many positions to do so, and thus for the sake of this thread, I was hoping to put on hold those that are held by a fairly negligible minority of individuals. Rather, I was hoping to focus on general views of most people supporting or opposing abortion's legality. That said, do you actually need proof that people who regard themselves as pro-life generally oppose abortion being a legal choice? I could find it I suppose, but I was hoping (expecting, really) that those who contribute would have the real-world knowledge to know that most who regard themselves as pro-life oppose abortion as a legal choice in it's entirity on the grounds that it is "murder."

Sailor Moon wrote: Well, Like I said, the pro death crowd is mostly atheist, which, in my mind is a temptation of Satan, which clearly equates to satanic.
Given that the US population as a whole regards itself as 75% Christian and only .4% Atheist, your claim is logically impossible. Unless you have some mathematical proof that can make .4% of the population somehow cover "most" of the people around half of people who support abortion's legality... :lol:

Population demographics: http://www.teachingaboutreligion.org/Demographics/map_demographics.htm

Sailor Moon wrote: OK pro choice is the same as pro death...
If we advocated abortions occurring you would be correct, but seeing how we do not, you are not. Eesh.

Sailor Moon wrote: A life IS taken, its just not a born life. And no this is not difficult, to most people.
Please, once again, I request that you keep the topic of abortion as a practice, in terms of both morality and safety, in other threads. This subject of this thread is the people supporting or opposing abortion's legality as a choice, not whether they are justified in feeling so.

[Sailor Moon]

Prole wrote: Sailor Moon wrote: Dude, youre entire logic is flawed. You want all choices to be legal. Thats insane. Lines have to be drawn. Laws are made to draw lines. You cross the lines, you pay. Thats how the world works. Deal with it.
That lines have to be drawn and where they should be drawn is entirely your subjective opinion, and one that I would like to ask again that you discuss in other threads. The subject of this thread was not intended to be whether abortion is acceptable or not, but the groups advocating and opposing its legal acceptability.

If you want to discuss any views pertaining to this post, youre going to have to accept that people are going to give a reason for why they generally feel a certain way. Lines have to be drawn. That is the pro lifers standpoint. "Dont kill unborn kids"... why is it so difficult for you to accept any arguments in this thread that are pro life?

Quote: Sailor Moon wrote: Need I quote a certain post you made? I have plenty of evidence. I have posted it recurrent times, while you have ignored it over and over again, or "reported" me, for posting the truth. Sorry, buddy, but you are living proof of it, and thats the cold hard truth.
Again, I ask that you not derail the subject in favor of abortion's safety; it is not the subject for this thread, and there is another thread with the same subject active as well.

Tell it to TGM1, who attacked me own history first.. Sheesh.. there ARE two sides to every coin...

Quote: Sailor Moon wrote: You need to prove that all pro lifers are anti choice, first. Its his thread, not mine. He holds the birden of proof. All I have to do is show how fallicious his claims are.
This is not meant to be a topic discussing every single person on either side of a debate; there are far too many positions to do so, and thus for the sake of this thread, I was hoping to put on hold those that are held by a fairly negligible minority of individuals. Rather, I was hoping to focus on general views of most people supporting or opposing abortion's legality. That said, do you actually need proof that people who regard themselves as pro-life generally oppose abortion being a legal choice? I could find it I suppose, but I was hoping (expecting, really) that those who contribute would have the real-world knowledge to know that most who regard themselves as pro-life oppose abortion as a legal choice in it's entirity on the grounds that it is "murder."

I need proof that pro lifers in general oppose choice. I do not need proof that pro lifers want abortion criminalized. We do want it to be illegal to obtain an abortion. Who said anything about turning it into a capital crime? Yeah we THINK its murder. That doesnt mean that illegal abortion is something that we all think should be charged as such in all cases.

Quote: Sailor Moon wrote: Well, Like I said, the pro death crowd is mostly atheist, which, in my mind is a temptation of Satan, which clearly equates to satanic.
Given that the US population as a whole regards itself as 75% Christian and only .4% Atheist, your claim is logically impossible. Unless you have some mathematical proof that can make .4% of the population somehow cover "most" of the people around half of people who support abortion's legality... :lol:

Population demographics: http://www.teachingaboutreligion.org/Demographics/map_demographics.htm

People who claim to be christian or whatever and are pro choice, really dont do anything to try to learn about God. They are also deliberately disobeying his Word.. a temptation of Satan. To go to church and preach pro choice, is satanic. I dont care what you say. They are literally worshipping the wrong thing.

Quote: Sailor Moon wrote: OK pro choice is the same as pro death...
If we advocated abortions occurring you would be correct, but seeing how we do not, you are not. Eesh.

If pro life is anti choice, according to you, then I will generalize and say that pro choice is pro death...

If you want to reword your own hatred towards pro lifers, then I will reword my posts. Until then, mine are well deserved.

Quote: Sailor Moon wrote: A life IS taken, its just not a born life. And no this is not difficult, to most people.
Please, once again, I request that you keep the topic of abortion as a practice, in terms of both morality and safety, in other threads. This subject of this thread is the people supporting or opposing abortion's legality as a choice, not whether they are justified in feeling so.

Funny how you only say this to ME, and not to the people who originally bring it up.. talk about biased

[TheGirlNextDoor]

Prole wrote:
To me, it seems that anti-choice activists focus mostly on the "It's a baby, so it is wrong to kill it" arguement. Strong emphasis is put on a Christian morals that "Though shalt not murder," and pictures of aborted fetuses, especially those done late term. The main support comes from right-wing Christians, especially those in the south-east and mid-west.

No, I firmly disagree. Now if we're talking extremes here - then I would be more inclined to agree, because we all know that the squeakiest wheel gets the oil. Not all people who are Pro-LIFE are right wing religious zealots.. and some who are personally against abortion also think that it's murder - have no religious reasons for believing such. I, being one of them.


Difference is - while a person can be personally against abortion and hold fast to the thought that it is a baby and that it is murder - that some of us realize that we cannot be the decision maker in things of this nature.


Quote: The pro-choice movement, on the other hand, tend to focus largely on the "It's a woman's body, so she has the right to do with it as she wants" arguement, and try to keep religion out of the question. Strong emphasis is put on personal freedom, especially in the sense that abortion is a women's reproductive rights issues. The support base is generally anyone except right-wing Christians (and Scientologists?), and regionally tends to be more west coast and northeast states.

Just one question. Earlier in your intial post, you say this:

Quote: For the moment, let's try to not to find fault in the arguments of each group, but instead collaborate to try to get as accurate a picture of the discourse over abortion's legality in the bigger picture. Also, remember activist groups for most issues including abortion and on both sides of the debate are guilty of oversimplifying, as it is the sad truth that it is easier to rally support for something by microfocussing on an easy point than to examine all sides of the issue; you might not find parts which support your arguement on other sides, as well as being a great deal to ask of your (often rather apathetic) support.

1. You say "..... collaborate to try and get as accurate a picture of the discourse over abortions legality in the big picture."

This doesn't exactly seem like an attempt to "collabortate" much of anything. It seems to me - an attempt at generalizing the opposing side of an issue in order to give the casual reader a perspective that would make them recoil in digust.

2. "Also, remember activist groups for most issues including abortion and on both sides of the debate are guilty of oversimplifying,....."

Yes, and I would agree. Much like your views on pro-life versus pro-choice.

I specifically note how you've listed every negative attribute of the most extreme of pro-lifers - and paint a rosy picture of pro-choicers. Using inflammatory words as a guide. What sort of civil debate and discourse will this bring about I wonder?

Quote: Do you agree with my assessment of the general activists' methods and support, and do you have anything to add? For now, let's just try to get an idea of the activists themselves; hopefully, after, we can address whether it is being effective and what measures would be more effective for them.

I don't think it's as accurate as it could be, no. Perhaps if you were to rephrase it into "the most extreme of pro-life/pro-choice activists" - then maybe we'd have something to discuss. Until that time, I see no reason to even entertain the thought that all people who hold an opposing viewpoint, to be made out as religious zealots and general nutcases.

I will await your response to this - and would appreciate it if you wouldn't over generalize people of any group in the manner in which you just did. It does not further debate, it is inflammatory, and if we want to be nitpicky about it - generalizing in such a way is against the rules of this forum.

Quote: Extremist/Racist Posts
To maintain the status quo of the board there are rules that must be observed so that forum members do not abuse each other in their passion for their issue or ideology. One of these rules regards Extremist Rhetoric. Blanket statements condemning an entire demographic will not be tolerated. Threads posted for such reasons will be locked. A blantant post directed at a selected group for personal attributes, (I.E. Religious beliefs, Physical, Mental, Color, etc...) will probably result in being banned from the site.

http://www.politicalcrossfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=101

In other words - give me a reason why this thread should not be locked.

**On a MODERATOR note**

Everyone stop with this back and forth generalizing crap. Two wrongs, DO NOT make a right. I do not fancy coming in here after a week or so of having things be quiet, only to come in and see the pissing matches continue and the personal innuendos and attacks continuing.

[Sailor Moon]

OK Sorry for what I said. I would love this thread to be locked, myself, since the entire thing is designed as an attack on pro lifers. Its hard to defend his stance that "pro life= anti choice" without giving him a similar scenario that "pro choice = pro death", in the wake of generalizing, etc..

He is calling for generalizations, but obviously only him calling pro lifers "anti choice" is acceptable to him.

Please, DO lock this.

[steen]

Sailor Moon wrote: Dude, youre entire logic is flawed. You want all choices to be legal. Thats insane. Lines have to be drawn. Laws are made to draw lines. You cross the lines, you pay. Thats how the world works. Deal with it. Why do the lines HAVE to be drawn?

Quote: A life IS taken, its just not a born life. And no this is not difficult, to most people. Even Prole understands what a life is... Yes, a hydatidiform mole is a life. So what?

[Sailor Moon]

steen wrote: Sailor Moon wrote: Dude, youre entire logic is flawed. You want all choices to be legal. Thats insane. Lines have to be drawn. Laws are made to draw lines. You cross the lines, you pay. Thats how the world works. Deal with it. Why do the lines HAVE to be drawn?

Same reason why locks are made. To keep honest people honest.

Quote: Quote: A life IS taken, its just not a born life. And no this is not difficult, to most people. Even Prole understands what a life is... Yes, a hydatidiform mole is a life. So what?

It isnt even going to survive the pregnancy anyways. What is the point of arguing about it? It has NOTHING to do with abortion.

[The Grandmaster]

Sailor Moon wrote:
Quote: Quote: A life IS taken, its just not a born life. And no this is not difficult, to most people. Even Prole understands what a life is... Yes, a hydatidiform mole is a life. So what?

It isnt even going to survive the pregnancy anyways. What is the point of arguing about it? It has NOTHING to do with abortion.

It has everything to do with abortion. It is a patent refutation of the entire foundation of the anti-choice/Pro-life stance. It is said we abortions cannot be right, but must be wrong, because a human life is taken. It is said this, because that which is inside, has human DNA, and this DNA is different from the mother. So we have to let this cellular matter live.

However, the hydatidiform mole satisfies the exact same criterion that use used to justify the (by dictionary definition) anti-choice stance. It is differing, human, DNA. Cancer does as well. However, there is no fuss to the destruction of these entities, despite them having differing, human DNA. Thus, the position of the anti-choice crown is not consistent, and it demonstrates wholly that differing human DNA is not in and of itself, sufficient to qualify something as a person. Thus, something else is needed. Anything else that is picked, must on some level be arbitrary. If the pro-life crowd can choose something else as the determiner of what is human, then the pro-choice crown can help themselves to the same arbitrary privilege, and choose, say for example, the formation of the brain and brainwaves as the onset of when something because a human. Thus, something would not be a human until 8-12 weeks, giving ample time to choose to abort or not. The crippling of the entire anti-choice foundation, I would certainly say, has something to do with abortion indeed.

Sailor Moon wrote:
People who claim to be christian or whatever and are pro choice, really dont do anything to try to learn about God. They are also deliberately disobeying his Word.. a temptation of Satan. To go to church and preach pro choice, is satanic. I dont care what you say. They are literally worshipping the wrong thing.

That would be if God or God's existed. As we have been through this before, I have refuted your argument for the existence of God, and his existence remains undemonstrated. Any argument based on God is that of a faulty premise.

[Sailor Moon]

Youre so funny!

The Grandmaster1 wrote: Twinning precludes a single human life beginning at conception, and that is what we've been covering mostly during your week off.

And YES I will post this every time you contradict yourself again regarding when "a" human life begins.

[steen]

Sailor Moon wrote: People who claim to be christian or whatever and are pro choice, really dont do anything to try to learn about God. They are also deliberately disobeying his Word.. a temptation of Satan. Ah, so you are back to your vicious, hate mongering lies and attacks. How lame. But true pro-life, such behavior. We should expect no less.

Quote: To go to church and preach pro choice, is satanic. A lie.

Quote: I dont care what you say. They are literally worshipping the wrong thing. A lie. You seem to continue reveling in bearing false witness and spitting God in the eye, now directly spewing hate mongering blasphemous lies. Shame on you for your lack of decency.


Quote: If pro life is anti choice, according to you, then I will generalize and say that pro choice is pro death... And in spewing such silly sophistry, you are again lying.

Quote: If you want to reword your own hatred towards pro lifers, then I will reword my posts. Until then, mine are well deserved. Given your hate mongering, misogynistic lies and deceit, you need to retract all the many scumbag lies you have spewed about others first

[The Grandmaster]

Sailor Moon wrote: Youre so funny!

The Grandmaster1 wrote: Twinning precludes a single human life beginning at conception, and that is what we've been covering mostly during your week off.

And YES I will post this every time you contradict yourself again regarding when "a" human life begins.


And I will point out how you've made an idiot out of yourself, worse than ever, by trying to call someone on a contradiction...when you DON'T EVEN UNDERSTAND THE WORDS! :lol: :lol: :lol:

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=preclude

pre•clude P Pronunciation Key (pr -kl d )

tr.v. pre•clud•ed, pre•clud•ing, pre•cludes

1. To make impossible, as by action taken in advance; prevent. See Synonyms at prevent.
2. To exclude or prevent (someone) from a given condition or activity: Modesty precludes me from accepting the honor.

Sailor...I have beaten you in every debate we've had, but not like this...not like this...wow this is priceless. :rotf: