Political Crossfire Forums

The High Command · Posted: Wed Mar 31, 2004 8:13 pm Post subject: Islam Extremists vs. Russia

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3587319.stm

Quote: An Afghan man has died in a hospital in Moscow, a week after he was allegedly beaten by a gang of Russian skinheads

This has been going on awhile but it is really coming to a boil in Russia too.

JNG · Joined: 30 Mar 2004 Posts: 12 Location: Connecticut

I didn't even know there was a notable Middle-Eastern Populace in Russia. Is this an isolated incident?

Arwon · Posted: Wed Apr 07, 2004 3:43 am Post subject:

Maybe not Middle-Eastern so much, but defiantely Central-Asian. (Afghanistan really isn't considered part of the Middle East) All those countries to the south of Russia, part of the former USSR... Russia, like China, has a vested interest in curbing Islamic extremism, linked as it is to troublesome and rebellious areas of their countries. It's a big issue there - and I suppose nationalist skinhead types would see it as a threat too.

Gonna be interesting what happens in Central Asia now that the "war on terror" has come to town and changed the dynamics there. Uzbekistan, for example, is using the new "war on terror" to cover its own repressive policies against Islamists and other opponents. Anti-Islamists of all types now have a veneer of legitimacy they formerly lacked.

The High Command · Posted: Fri Apr 09, 2004 5:50 am Post subject:

Here is more on it:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3611629.stm

They have provided new evidence of rape, torture and summary execution of Chechen civilians by Russian troops and an increasingly powerful militia commanded by the son of Chechnya's pro-Moscow president, Ahmad Kadyrov.

And the violence is now reported to be spreading from Chechnya to neighbouring Ingushetia.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3078553.stm

The group is now calling on Russia to invite a United Nations special rapporteur to the region to investigate the disappearance of hundreds of civilians.

Authorities 'implicated'

After the visit to the region, the team says the security situation remains grave and the people of Chechnya are living in a state of terror.

Thousands of Russian troops remain in Chechnya

At best, it reports, the Russian authorities are making insufficient effort to tackle human rights abuses. At worst, it says, they themselves are directly implicated.

It also says the practice of arbitrary detention is now spreading over the border into Ingushetia

bremo · Joined: 07 Apr 2004 Posts: 27 Location: World

Throughout the history the communist Russia had never had the phrase(Human Rights) in their political dictionary.

They used to publicly torture their people and sending them to death camps in Siberia.

They have in front of the eyes of the whole world killed millions of poor Afghan civilians and now they are in Chechnya playing the same chess game.

The history is full of sad stories being engineered by Russian Generals. There is no doubt that it will remain a black spot in their history for many many years to come.

I truly wish that they do not become an example for us in the civilized world.

Slava · Joined: 02 Jun 2005 Posts: 468 Location: Kazan

bremo wrote: Throughout the history the communist Russia had never had the phrase(Human Rights) in their political dictionary.

They used to publicly torture their people and sending them to death camps in Siberia.

They have in front of the eyes of the whole world killed millions of poor Afghan civilians and now they are in Chechnya playing the same chess game.

The history is full of sad stories being engineered by Russian Generals. There is no doubt that it will remain a black spot in their history for many many years to come.

I truly wish that they do not become an example for us in the civilized world.

F**k off, idiot. Go and count how many civilians were killed by generals of the 'civilised' world in Vietnam and Iraq to start with.

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 8422 Location: Petah Tikva

didn't even know there was a notable Middle-Eastern Populace in Russia. Is this an isolated incident?

By middle Eastern I suppose you mean Islamic or muslim, and to answer your question, CHECHNYA. Chechnya has turned into an Islamic war against Russia, from the Beslan school siege, to the Airplane bombings, to the Subway attacks, Opera house, Suicide bombings, hospital attacks etc.

Before the USSR collapsed Russia also encompassed nations like Kazakstan for instance with a very larg emuslim population. Today they are centralized near the Chinese Border, the "Stan" countries borders, and the Caucus, near Georgia and Chechnya.

No-Name · Joined: 23 Dec 2005 Posts: 91

Slava wrote: bremo wrote: Throughout the history the communist Russia had never had the phrase(Human Rights) in their political dictionary.

They used to publicly torture their people and sending them to death camps in Siberia.

They have in front of the eyes of the whole world killed millions of poor Afghan civilians and now they are in Chechnya playing the same chess game.

The history is full of sad stories being engineered by Russian Generals. There is no doubt that it will remain a black spot in their history for many many years to come.

I truly wish that they do not become an example for us in the civilized world.

F**k off, idiot. Go and count how many civilians were killed by generals of the 'civilised' world in Vietnam and Iraq to start with.

I really dont think its possible to make it any clearer, bravo slava

Marcus Aurelius · Joined: 11 Jul 2005 Posts: 101

No-Name wrote: Slava wrote: bremo wrote: Throughout the history the communist Russia had never had the phrase(Human Rights) in their political dictionary.

They used to publicly torture their people and sending them to death camps in Siberia.

They have in front of the eyes of the whole world killed millions of poor Afghan civilians and now they are in Chechnya playing the same chess game.

The history is full of sad stories being engineered by Russian Generals. There is no doubt that it will remain a black spot in their history for many many years to come.

I truly wish that they do not become an example for us in the civilized world.

F**k off, idiot. Go and count how many civilians were killed by generals of the 'civilised' world in Vietnam and Iraq to start with.

I really dont think its possible to make it any clearer, bravo slava

:lol: , "Well, you did bad stuff, too!" Sounds like a bunch of third graders. Not sure about the Iraq comment, since the US does not purposely kill civilians. IF you diasgree, I want reliable sources. I guess you're comparing Russia to Sadaam's regime, if you're talking about death and tortured civilians. And yeah, bad crud did happen in Vietnam. But you had your Vietnam in Afghanistan. Land mines masquearding as toys, anyone? Hey, I know the Chechens are bad news, but that's no excuse to play just as dirty. I sympathize though, so take a bit of friendly advice: gathering behind a bloody flag and shouting obscenities won't help your case. You're better off discussing facts and statistics rather than fulfilling stereotypes of Russian paranoia and xenophobia.

Slava · Joined: 02 Jun 2005 Posts: 468 Location: Kazan

Marcus Aurelius wrote: :lol: , "Well, you did bad stuff, too!" Sounds like a bunch of third graders. Not sure about the Iraq comment, since the US does not purposely kill civilians. IF you diasgree, I want reliable sources. I guess you're comparing Russia to Sadaam's regime, if you're talking about death and tortured civilians. And yeah, bad crud did happen in Vietnam. But you had your Vietnam in Afghanistan. Land mines masquearding as toys, anyone? Hey, I know the Chechens are bad news, but that's no excuse to play just as dirty. I sympathize though, so take a bit of friendly advice: gathering behind a bloody flag and shouting obscenities won't help your case. You're better off discussing facts and statistics rather than fulfilling stereotypes of Russian paranoia and xenophobia.
I am not sure who specifically you are communicating with. But my reply just matched the tone of the bremo’s post. As for your ‘facts’: the US does not purposely kill civilians? Are you kidding? Didn’t your generals deliberately mass murdered millions civilians in Germany, Japan and, later, in Vietnam by carpet bombing their cities; by bombing civilian targets in Yugoslavia just 6 years ago? What other facts do you need? And after this you are talking about your stereotypes of ‘Russian paranoia and xenophobia’? At the moment you are the most nationalistic country in the world and aggressor #1 that poses threat to the whole world. And this is not my paranoia, this is fact.

What pisses me off is that you in the West take it for granted that we are bad and evil. How are we bad? Did we invade the Western Europe a lot or was it rather the other way round? Did we ever bomb or invade the US; did we ever kill your civilians (no, only in your stupid nationalistic and purely anti-Russian chauvinistic films)? If not, then leave us alone. Therefore I’m going to repeat: please, bugger off!!! Discuss something more realistic and specific, not your stereotypes and phobias (I also have a lot of bad feelings about the US and the UK, but this is based on facts, not on dumb propaganda that you are spoon-fed in the West generally and in the US specifically).

Esin · Joined: 08 Jun 2005 Posts: 1164 Location: Florida

Slava is right. Russia has a pretty bad rep because of the microscope focused on it during the cold war (don't get me wrong, I do think Stalin was evil,) but this crap about public executions being common is baseless, and is pretty ripe with ignorance. That being said, Slava, Russia does have a problem right now with it's overly zelous Russian nationalists. While I was in Velikiy Novgorod (a decent sized, and well kept city [it has some awesome museums by the way, my favourite in all of Russia,]) I saw numerous swastikas painted on the sides of buildings, and walked by a school graphitied with the phrase "Russia for Russians." I didn't notice any such slogans in Moscow, but the pollution and grime most likely covered it up (Moscow is a dirty city, like New york.) It was also a fairly popular topic in the Moscow Gazetta and Petersburg Times.

Esin · Joined: 08 Jun 2005 Posts: 1164 Location: Florida

Oh, and regarding dispersion of minorities, Russia's population isn't mixed like ours. It is generally regional (central asians live in one area, Russians live in another,) although that isn't quite as true in big cities like Moscow, most of the population there is still Russian or European.

Marcus Aurelius · Joined: 11 Jul 2005 Posts: 101

Everyone should note: I stated the US does not purposely kill civilians, not that it hasn't in the past. The Yugoslavia stuff is bunk, and Iraq has been the scene of many efforts to minimize casualties. As far as invasions, I think Eastern Europeans might have a very different opinion about who's the greater threat. And c'mon, you think it's phobias? I doubt one of our Forbes editors would be gunned down for pissing off the wealthy and powerful. I doubt the people of Grozny are deluded in their fear and anger. I doubt Putin has left his KGB past behind, the way he's jailing govt opponents, taking control of the media, and aggregating power. I don't believe all Russians are evil, I just see a country backsliding into totalitarianism

Slava · Joined: 02 Jun 2005 Posts: 468 Location: Kazan

Marcus Aurelius wrote: Everyone should note: I stated the US does not purposely kill civilians, not that it hasn't in the past. The Yugoslavia stuff is bunk, and Iraq has been the scene of many efforts to minimize casualties. As far as invasions, I think Eastern Europeans might have a very different opinion about who's the greater threat. And c'mon, you think it's phobias? I doubt one of our Forbes editors would be gunned down for pissing off the wealthy and powerful. I doubt the people of Grozny are deluded in their fear and anger. I doubt Putin has left his KGB past behind, the way he's jailing govt opponents, taking control of the media, and aggregating power. I don't believe all Russians are evil, I just see a country backsliding into totalitarianism
Still I can't see how Russia is much different. Is Russia purposely killing civilians? No. Is (or rather was) it not trying to minimize civilian casualties in Chechnya. No. Was Paul Khlebnikov killed ‘for pissing off the wealthy and powerful’? No, he was killed not by an ethnic Russian, but by a Chechen warlord whose interview was used as the basis for Khlebnikov’s book “Conversation with a barbarian”. Do American presidents and their team forget their past of working for CIA or big companies? No. Is Russia ‘backsliding into totalitarianism’? To some extent yes, but the opinions expressed on many issues in Russian mass media are still more diverse than in those of the US’. Just facts.

As for Eastern Europeans – they (incited to a great extent by the US) tend to forget the bad things that they did to us, while concentrating on the opposite. Is it a wise policy to spoil relations with your neighbour? No.

P.S. By the way, the ruins in Belgrade are still there…

Esin · Joined: 08 Jun 2005 Posts: 1164 Location: Florida

My view on this "back slide" into totalitarianism is that it isn't; not quite. Putin is a strong nationalist president who was elected in a fair election the first time and a mostly fair election the second time. I don't really see Russia's democracy slide much further then "mostly fair." I doubt Putin is going to change the law to run for a third term. However, Putin is quite strong, and he is quite popular, and at this point none of the other contenders really have a chance (at this point this is a good thing, as most of the popular leaders are either the Rodina party (Motherland = extreme right wing, kick all the dirty foreigners out of our country and nationalise all resources) or the Communist Party(extreme left wing, kick all the capitalist foreigners out of our country and nationalise all resources.) So at this point, Putin is looking pretty good. I don't agree with all or even most of his policies, but I like his policies better then, say Dmitry Rogozin's (Rodina). My concern does however come into play during the elections. Now let me give you a little history lesson. Yelstin was the first Russian president. He was pretty popular, but was basically a big bag of wind, and didn't get much done. With his 2nd term up, his wife dead, his popularity dropping, and his health failing, he did what any reasonable man would do, and didn't run again. Instead he picked recommended a little know KGB officer named Vladimir PUTIN. Putin ran, and against the odds, won. He is no longer little known. Putin, like Yeltsin is quite popular. However, unlike Yeltsin, Putin likes to get things done.... His popularity rises instead of flags. (...speculation begins) Eight years later, Putin's term is up. He's still popular, and although he could probably run a 3rd term and get away with it, most likely, he won't. Instead he hand picks a loyal successor. Because the very popular Putin picked him, the sucessor wins... he remains popular... eight years later, that president picks his successor.... you see where the problem lies... I am not afraid one man will controll Russia's history, I am afraid one party will....

Esin · Joined: 08 Jun 2005 Posts: 1164 Location: Florida

By the way, Slava, my wife has family that lives in Khazan. (I believe that's where you said you live.)

Esin · Joined: 08 Jun 2005 Posts: 1164 Location: Florida

Slava, where are you?

Slava · Joined: 02 Jun 2005 Posts: 468 Location: Kazan

Esin wrote: Slava, where are you?

Sorry, Esin. I do live in Kazan. It is in Central Volga region, roughly between N. Novgorod and Ekaterinburg, about 500 miles east of Moscow.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16047 Location: On Earth

This article shows how Xenophobia is affecting our world today, from the ignorant anti-Islamics breeding senseless slander and biased ignorant hate towards Muslims and Middle Easterns in general. This is indeed an isolated incident, because Xenophobia affects everyone, even when we're not aware of it. But the article itself has nothing to do with Islamic fundamentalists... just an occasional isolated incident in which a group of thugs come down to an "outsider" and beat the sh!t out of him. There are hate crimes going on in the USA, and this is no different; in fact, there aren't a lot of hate crimes going on in Russia as there are in the US.

Quote:
Everyone should note: I stated the US does not purposely kill civilians, not that it hasn't in the past. The Yugoslavia stuff is bunk, and Iraq has been the scene of many efforts to minimize casualties. As far as invasions, I think Eastern Europeans might have a very different opinion about who's the greater threat. And c'mon, you think it's phobias? I doubt one of our Forbes editors would be gunned down for pissing off the wealthy and powerful. I doubt the people of Grozny are deluded in their fear and anger. I doubt Putin has left his KGB past behind, the way he's jailing govt opponents, taking control of the media, and aggregating power. I don't believe all Russians are evil, I just see a country backsliding into totalitarianism

No offense, emperor, but you're going about it wrongly. First of all, there is NO such thing as a moral high ground, and thus no such thing as moral superiority. To clear the American troops of wrongdoing is like saying that they are some sort of God's army, whereas in fact they are just like any other army in the world... even militants. And from what I know, there is a Russian attack against Chechnya that has brought global concern, but of course, I'm not into Russian politics or that sort.

America is not a "good guy" anymore, and saying such comments, Mr. Aurelius, proves that you're a Nationalist, not a Patriot. And in anyone's book, Nationalism is not accepted in the modern world. In fact, there are no good guys in this world whether you look at it. And yes, the Americans have killed off more people than you can ever imagine. More than any Ruskie general ever would...

Just gotta say, Slava, No-Name and Esin, you put those guys right in their place. :tu:

MoscowMatt · Joined: 16 Sep 2005 Posts: 1644 Location: UK / Hungary

Slava wrote: I am not sure who specifically you are communicating with. But my reply just matched the tone of the bremo’s post. As for your ‘facts’: the US does not purposely kill civilians? Are you kidding? Didn’t your generals deliberately mass murdered millions civilians in Germany, Japan and, later, in Vietnam by carpet bombing their cities; by bombing civilian targets in Yugoslavia just 6 years ago? What other facts do you need? And after this you are talking about your stereotypes of ‘Russian paranoia and xenophobia’? At the moment you are the most nationalistic country in the world and aggressor #1 that poses threat to the whole world. And this is not my paranoia, this is fact.

What pisses me off is that you in the West take it for granted that we are bad and evil. How are we bad? Did we invade the Western Europe a lot or was it rather the other way round? Did we ever bomb or invade the US; did we ever kill your civilians (no, only in your stupid nationalistic and purely anti-Russian chauvinistic films)? If not, then leave us alone. Therefore I’m going to repeat: please, bugger off!!! Discuss something more realistic and specific, not your stereotypes and phobias (I also have a lot of bad feelings about the US and the UK, but this is based on facts, not on dumb propaganda that you are spoon-fed in the West generally and in the US specifically).

Hey not all of us in the West think like that. You should also remember in your feeling towards the UK that our government's actions on the international stage are being pulled by the strings of our US puppet masters!!!! In otherwords Bush says to Blair 'Jump' and good old Tony says 'How high'!!

Personally speaking I'm more interested in better relations and cooperation on issues with Russia than I am in doing what the US tells us to!!!! That siad I do agree with the US in their concerns over the Middle East. In the 1930's an extreme movement within Europe was left unchecked and we ended up with WWII and the death of countless millions. Now we have another extreme movement with a grip on the Middle East. One that seeks to aquire nuclear technology. Doesn't bode well really does it??