Political Crossfire Forums

[ToonArmyIsComing]

I'd like to know why Muslim countries seem unable to have a liberal democracy where tolerance is the norm? I've read that the Koran talks about the "Umma". If I remember correctly, it stated that the "Umma" should rule. If that is true, then why is it that the Muslim countries don't allow their "Umma" to rule themselves rather than religious or secular tyrants?

If not, is the Koran against democracy?

Quote: Umma: A people. Used to designate the community of Muslims. Also the community of Arabs or Arabic nation.

www.mideastweb.org/glossary.htm

[pharaoh]

ToonArmyIsComing wrote: I'd like to know why Muslim countries seem unable to have a liberal democracy where tolerance is the norm? I've read that the Koran talks about the "Umma". If I remember correctly, it stated that the "Umma" should rule. If that is true, then why is it that the Muslim countries don't allow their "Umma" to rule themselves rather than religious or secular tyrants?

If not, is the Koran against democracy?

Quote: Umma: A people. Used to designate the community of Muslims. Also the community of Arabs or Arabic nation.

www.mideastweb.org/glossary.htm

Oh but we love to have Democracy in the muslims world but there is one problem though:The leaders dont want to,they want to stay in power and control everything just in any other dictatorship country.

[Locke25]

ToonArmyIsComing wrote: I'd like to know why Muslim countries seem unable to have a liberal democracy where tolerance is the norm? I've read that the Koran talks about the "Umma". If I remember correctly, it stated that the "Umma" should rule. If that is true, then why is it that the Muslim countries don't allow their "Umma" to rule themselves rather than religious or secular tyrants?

If not, is the Koran against democracy?

Quote: Umma: A people. Used to designate the community of Muslims. Also the community of Arabs or Arabic nation.

www.mideastweb.org/glossary.htm

because i doubt the muslim country leaders govern their country according to the koran....

[John]

pharaoh wrote: ToonArmyIsComing wrote: I'd like to know why Muslim countries seem unable to have a liberal democracy where tolerance is the norm? I've read that the Koran talks about the "Umma". If I remember correctly, it stated that the "Umma" should rule. If that is true, then why is it that the Muslim countries don't allow their "Umma" to rule themselves rather than religious or secular tyrants?

If not, is the Koran against democracy?

Quote: Umma: A people. Used to designate the community of Muslims. Also the community of Arabs or Arabic nation.

www.mideastweb.org/glossary.htm

Oh but we love to have Democracy in the muslims world but there is one problem though:The leaders dont want to,they want to stay in power and control everything just in any other dictatorship country.

What really confuses me about that statement is most of these countries have citizens that are armed to the teeth. Its kind of hard to believe that they're being bullied into submission while holding an AK in one hand and a grenade in the other.

[ToonArmyIsComing]

John wrote: pharaoh wrote: ToonArmyIsComing wrote: I'd like to know why Muslim countries seem unable to have a liberal democracy where tolerance is the norm? I've read that the Koran talks about the "Umma". If I remember correctly, it stated that the "Umma" should rule. If that is true, then why is it that the Muslim countries don't allow their "Umma" to rule themselves rather than religious or secular tyrants?

If not, is the Koran against democracy?

Quote: Umma: A people. Used to designate the community of Muslims. Also the community of Arabs or Arabic nation.

www.mideastweb.org/glossary.htm

Oh but we love to have Democracy in the muslims world but there is one problem though:The leaders dont want to,they want to stay in power and control everything just in any other dictatorship country.

What really confuses me about that statement is most of these countries have citizens that are armed to the teeth. Its kind of hard to believe that they're being bullied into submission while holding an AK in one hand and a grenade in the other.

I invite you to look at what happened in 1991 when the Shiites and the Kurds tried to overthrow Saddam ... not a pretty sight and many many people were killed, so I think that kind of experience is preventing people from rising up and overthrowing their oppressive regimes.

[John]

ToonArmyIsComing wrote: John wrote: pharaoh wrote: ToonArmyIsComing wrote: I'd like to know why Muslim countries seem unable to have a liberal democracy where tolerance is the norm? I've read that the Koran talks about the "Umma". If I remember correctly, it stated that the "Umma" should rule. If that is true, then why is it that the Muslim countries don't allow their "Umma" to rule themselves rather than religious or secular tyrants?

If not, is the Koran against democracy?

Quote: Umma: A people. Used to designate the community of Muslims. Also the community of Arabs or Arabic nation.

www.mideastweb.org/glossary.htm

Oh but we love to have Democracy in the muslims world but there is one problem though:The leaders dont want to,they want to stay in power and control everything just in any other dictatorship country.

What really confuses me about that statement is most of these countries have citizens that are armed to the teeth. Its kind of hard to believe that they're being bullied into submission while holding an AK in one hand and a grenade in the other.

I invite you to look at what happened in 1991 when the Shiites and the Kurds tried to overthrow Saddam ... not a pretty sight and many many people were killed, so I think that kind of experience is preventing people from rising up and overthrowing their oppressive regimes.

That was a minority. If the majority of the males in that country wanted democracy...they could have had it. THEY"RE ARMED! Having a dictatorship is just part of their culture. They don't really see it like we do.

The youth are in the works of being trained to think differently.

[ToonArmyIsComing]

John wrote: That was a minority. If the majority of the males in that country wanted democracy...they could have had it. THEY"RE ARMED!

Minority? Kurds and Shias make up around 70-80% of the Iraqi population!!!

John wrote: Having a dictatorship is just part of their culture. They don't really see it like we do.

The youth are in the works of being trained to think differently.

Have you ever lived under an authoritarian regime? If not, I suggest you should not be making statements like: it's their culture ... they like being ruled by tyrants ...
Many regimes there are rich because of the oil dollars, so they can afford to use different means of coercion and mind control techniques. Dissent is put down violently. In places like Egypt, they have thousands of political prisoners who are in prison for disagreeing with their regimes. Some are executed.
And to make the matters worse, these regimes are helped by the world's only super power!

[John]

ToonArmyIsComing wrote: John wrote: That was a minority. If the majority of the males in that country wanted democracy...they could have had it. THEY"RE ARMED!

Minority? Kurds and Shias make up around 70-80% of the Iraqi population!!!

John wrote: Having a dictatorship is just part of their culture. They don't really see it like we do.

The youth are in the works of being trained to think differently.

Have you ever lived under an authoritarian regime? If not, I suggest you should not be making statements like: it's their culture ... they like being ruled by tyrants ...
Many regimes there are rich because of the oil dollars, so they can afford to use different means of coercion and mind control techniques. Dissent is put down violently. In places like Egypt, they have thousands of political prisoners who are in prison for disagreeing with their regimes. Some are executed.
And to make the matters worse, these regimes are helped by the world's only super power!

So you're saying that 80% of the Iraqi population armed with AK-47s couldn't over take that silly military Sadaam had. That just doesn't square.

[Demonic Spoon]

...what makes you think everyone in Iraq had weapons? What makes you think they were organized enough to even REBEL?

[ToonArmyIsComing]

John wrote: So you're saying that 80% of the Iraqi population armed with AK-47s couldn't over take that silly military Sadaam had. That just doesn't square.

Who said 80% had weapons? I said 80% are Shiites and Kurds.

Besides, how can a bunch of people with AK-47s fight against Chemical weapons, biological weapons, helicopters and tanks that don't care where they hit?!

[Nico]

John wrote:

So you're saying that 80% of the Iraqi population armed with AK-47s couldn't over take that silly military Sadaam had. That just doesn't square.

Tanks, Helicopters, fighters. Republican guard might have problems with an Abrahms, but not a guy with an AK. The odds against an insurgency succeeding go way up when facing mechanised fighting forces.

[ToonArmyIsComing]

Anaximander wrote: John wrote:

So you're saying that 80% of the Iraqi population armed with AK-47s couldn't over take that silly military Sadaam had. That just doesn't square.

Tanks, Helicopters, fighters. Republican guard might have problems with an Abrahms, but not a guy with an AK. The odds against an insurgency succeeding go way up when facing mechanised fighting forces.

Bingo and don't forget what Saddam did:

He bombed a place called shrine of "Imam Ali", which is very holy to the Shiites and threatened to bomb another place called shrine of "Imam Hossien" which is even hollier to the Shiites ...

And one more point:

General Wafiq Al Samarae [the former director of the Iraqi Intelligence Service] admitted in his book (Eastern Gate Ruins) that Saddam's regime used chemical weapons against Iraqi people in the holy cities of Najaf and Karbala.

[StarsNstripes]

John wrote: ToonArmyIsComing wrote: John wrote: That was a minority. If the majority of the males in that country wanted democracy...they could have had it. THEY"RE ARMED!

Minority? Kurds and Shias make up around 70-80% of the Iraqi population!!!

John wrote: Having a dictatorship is just part of their culture. They don't really see it like we do.

The youth are in the works of being trained to think differently.

Have you ever lived under an authoritarian regime? If not, I suggest you should not be making statements like: it's their culture ... they like being ruled by tyrants ...
Many regimes there are rich because of the oil dollars, so they can afford to use different means of coercion and mind control techniques. Dissent is put down violently. In places like Egypt, they have thousands of political prisoners who are in prison for disagreeing with their regimes. Some are executed.
And to make the matters worse, these regimes are helped by the world's only super power!

So you're saying that 80% of the Iraqi population armed with AK-47s couldn't over take that silly military Sadaam had. That just doesn't square.

Pre Gulfwar 1 Saddam had one of the largest most dangerous land armies on the planet. Tanks do plenty against little grenades and ak 47 bullets.

[curious_pixie]

StarsNstripes wrote: John wrote: ToonArmyIsComing wrote: John wrote: That was a minority. If the majority of the males in that country wanted democracy...they could have had it. THEY"RE ARMED!

Minority? Kurds and Shias make up around 70-80% of the Iraqi population!!!

John wrote: Having a dictatorship is just part of their culture. They don't really see it like we do.

The youth are in the works of being trained to think differently.

Have you ever lived under an authoritarian regime? If not, I suggest you should not be making statements like: it's their culture ... they like being ruled by tyrants ...
Many regimes there are rich because of the oil dollars, so they can afford to use different means of coercion and mind control techniques. Dissent is put down violently. In places like Egypt, they have thousands of political prisoners who are in prison for disagreeing with their regimes. Some are executed.
And to make the matters worse, these regimes are helped by the world's only super power!

So you're saying that 80% of the Iraqi population armed with AK-47s couldn't over take that silly military Sadaam had. That just doesn't square.

Pre Gulfwar 1 Saddam had one of the largest most dangerous land armies on the planet. Tanks do plenty against little grenades and ak 47 bullets.
I wonder who gave it to him :P

[StarsNstripes]

curious_pixie wrote: StarsNstripes wrote: John wrote: ToonArmyIsComing wrote: John wrote: That was a minority. If the majority of the males in that country wanted democracy...they could have had it. THEY"RE ARMED!

Minority? Kurds and Shias make up around 70-80% of the Iraqi population!!!

John wrote: Having a dictatorship is just part of their culture. They don't really see it like we do.

The youth are in the works of being trained to think differently.

Have you ever lived under an authoritarian regime? If not, I suggest you should not be making statements like: it's their culture ... they like being ruled by tyrants ...
Many regimes there are rich because of the oil dollars, so they can afford to use different means of coercion and mind control techniques. Dissent is put down violently. In places like Egypt, they have thousands of political prisoners who are in prison for disagreeing with their regimes. Some are executed.
And to make the matters worse, these regimes are helped by the world's only super power!

So you're saying that 80% of the Iraqi population armed with AK-47s couldn't over take that silly military Sadaam had. That just doesn't square.

Pre Gulfwar 1 Saddam had one of the largest most dangerous land armies on the planet. Tanks do plenty against little grenades and ak 47 bullets.
I wonder who gave it to him :P

Cold War left overs and billions of oil dollars buying russian and chinese weapons....

[Suleiman the Magnificent]

http://www.islamandusconstitution.com/

[nava]

ToonArmyIsComing wrote: I'd like to know why Muslim countries seem unable to have a liberal democracy where tolerance is the norm? I've read that the Koran talks about the "Umma". If I remember correctly, it stated that the "Umma" should rule. If that is true, then why is it that the Muslim countries don't allow their "Umma" to rule themselves rather than religious or secular tyrants?

If not, is the Koran against democracy?

Quote: Umma: A people. Used to designate the community of Muslims. Also the community of Arabs or Arabic nation.

www.mideastweb.org/glossary.htm

For example, Iran, where I come from and has a religious dictatorship which is the worst dictatorship, uses a false interpretation of the Koran to oppress the people and to stay in power. It has done so for the last 26 years. And they do that in the name of Islam but the truth is there is absolutely no mention of stoning or cutting hands and taking out eyes in the Koran. This practice has nothing to do with Islam. It was a form of punishment in pre-Islamic times and unfortunately the fundamentalists have incorporated it into their so-called Islamic law. In the time that they used to bury their new born daughters because having a daughter was a shame, Mohammad would put his 6 year old daughter (Fatemeh) on his shoulders and would walk in the streets. With this he wanted to show something to the world. At that fundamental time he could come and say women is equal to men, he said the inheritance of a woman is half of a man's, but that was a for that era. And these are the things that the mullahs are using. Beyond the precepts and rules relevant only within a certain time-frame, we must understand the spirit of Islam and the genuine outlook of the Koran. The precepts must not be interpreted as unalterable dogmas; as circumstances change, they must be replaced with new precepts more compatible with Islam’s ideal society. This is the dynamism of the Quran and of an ideology which claims to respond to the problems and needs of humankind and society in any circumstances. When this dynamism is overlooked, it inevitably leads to retrogression, oppression and discrimination emerging under the cloak of Islam.
When a couple of men attacked a christian women, when Ali (the first Imam of the muslim, also Mohamad's cousin) heard of this he said if a muslim man hears this and doesn't cry because of this tradegy he should die of shame.
Well, I think that's enough for now.

Take care,

[Ancalaima]

Well, I was expecting my country, Turkey, to come up in this discussion. It is by far the best example of a democtratic state with a Muslim population (98-99%). I understand that for the West, our democracy seems faulty, and shaky, but with the new reforms and the possiblity of EU membership, I believe that it's the proof that Islam does not call for extremism, tyranny or oppression.

[Saracen]

"because i doubt the muslim country leaders govern their country according to the koran...."

You hit the nail with the right hammer, Locke.

"I believe that it's the proof that Islam does not call for extremism, tyranny or oppression"

Anacalaima, I couldn't have said it better. U.S. democracy is incompatible with many of the Islamic teachings. And Islam opposes extremism, tyranny, and oppression as much as it doesn't call for them. :)

[Psycho Sid]

ToonArmy:

"I'd like to know why Muslim countries seem unable to have a liberal democracy where tolerance is the norm? I've read that the Koran talks about the "Umma". If I remember correctly, it stated that the "Umma" should rule. If that is true, then why is it that the Muslim countries don't allow their "Umma" to rule themselves rather than religious or secular tyrants?

If not, is the Koran against democracy? "

The Qur'an and democracy are two totally different things. Whereas the Qur'an has strict and speicfic teachings, democracy gives people (in theory, anyway) the power to legislate as they wish. This is strictly against the teachings of the Qur'an, which the entire Muslim nation views as immeasurably superior to democracy and any other kind of government.

As for why the Ummah is not ruling, it's just a phase. Because Muslims strayed away from the teachings of Islam and focused on living this lousy life instead of being true Muslims, God sicced those tyrants on us so we would repent and return back to form. When Muslims apply Islam in their hearts and actions as it truly is, the Ummah will clash with the current Arab regimes and overthrow them.