Political Crossfire Forums

floridaguy · Joined: 01 Jan 2006 Posts: 37 Location: Florida

George W Bush wrote: i always have thought it was not a choice, not genetic
but a way someone was raised.
NARTH.ORG

not saying ALL, but probably alot. I base this on the fact that many "gay" people had similar familial backgrounds (lack of same sex parent either emotionally distant, or never there)

many books written onthe topic. unfortunately, the pro-gay movement has successfully labeled any research as HATE.
Have catagorized anyone citing the facts as BIGOTED, or with a christian agenda.

there is nothing wrong with being gay.
there is alot wrong with accepting something you dont like being.
www.NARTH.org I went to your link, didn't read alot of it but I will. I was just wondering for argument sake, could it work the other way. I mean, could we take a guy like yourself and turn him gay?

Æ · Joined: 17 Jun 2005 Posts: 5072

The notion that a straight guy would "choose" to be homosexual is absurd. Fact is, he'd probably kill himself afterward.

F'losrix · Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 11:56 pm Post subject:

Demonic Spoon wrote: Quote:
Finally - what you're talking about is people choosing behavior in order to appear gay, NOT choosing an actual orientation and becoming gay.

No s**t ,that's what I said
No, you didn't. What you said is that they choose to be gay. You didn't say they chose to pretend to be gay. HUGE difference.

Quote: Quote:
Consider: There are considerable benefits to be had from faking a heterosexual orientation. To suggest that there are equivalent benefits to faking a homosexual orientation is outrageously false.

I never said there were benefits. People do it because they are stupid
Actually you did, possibly without realizing it. That benefit is the attention you say the get as the reason behind them doing it. I'm perfectly willing to admit that they may get some benefit, but to compare them to the flip side of the equation is what I find ridiculous - and that it what I have said.

Quote: Quote:
DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA HOW MUCH ENERGY WE SPEND HAVING TO COMBAT THIS RIDICULOUS NOTION THAT GAY PEOPLE CHOOSE TO BE ATTRACTED TO PERSON'S OF THE SAME SEX? For you to purposely confuse the issue by introducing this red herring that some people pretend to be gay and phrasing it as 'choosing to be gay' is thoroughly reprehensible.

EVERY SINGLE TIME I MENTIONED IT I SAID IT WAS NOT TRUE HOMOSEXUALITY!
And if you go back and read what you wrote from an objective point of view, I believe that you'll find what you wrote is ambiguous and could easily be construed as saying that there are no true homosexuals - that we're all pretending.

People who practice politics speak and write 'in code', using buzzwords and soundbites that are akin to a 'nudge nudge, wink wink' to their like-minded cohorts and as a means to get a knee-jerk reaction in their favor from the general public - most of whom are too busy with their everyday lives to give any critical, analytical thought to the message being spewed at them. The word 'choice', applied to homosexuality, is one such example; 'gay lifestyle' and 'the gay agenda' are others. When you construct arguments that rely on the code phrases employed regularly by our enemies as part of their own, you are going to get a strong reaction from those of us who are sick to death of having to combat their negative (and false) messages about us.

This is not an attempt to censor you. It is a shot across your bow, however. You can say whatever you please, but when you're talking about issues that directly impact MY LIFE, you'd better make damned sure you know what you're talking about and can communicate it in an unambiguous fashion. When you fail, you will find me lobbing grenades in the direction of your arguments. It might seem like a minor issue to you, but for me it's not - it's my life and I will continue to fiercely protect my own interests and those of my peers on these issues.

F'losrix · Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 11:59 pm Post subject:

Liberty4All wrote: The notion that a straight guy would "choose" to be homosexual is absurd. Fact is, he'd probably kill himself afterward.
Equally absurd to think that a gay guy could choose to become heterosexual. That street runs both ways.

Edit: That's not to say the gay people never practice heterosexual behavior and vice versa. But behavior doesn't determine sexual orientation. Sexual orientation usually drives the behavior, but not always.

F'losrix · Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 12:04 am Post subject:

George W Bush wrote: i always have thought it was not a choice, not genetic
but a way someone was raised.
NARTH.ORG

not saying ALL, but probably alot. I base this on the fact that many "gay" people had similar familial backgrounds (lack of same sex parent either emotionally distant, or never there)
Bullcrap. You're buying into the propaganda of our opponents.

Quote: many books written onthe topic. unfortunately, the pro-gay movement has successfully labeled any research as HATE. Have catagorized anyone citing the facts as BIGOTED, or with a christian agenda.
No, we label research that is carried out with an agenda and the aim of reaching negative, foregone conclusions about homosexuality as hate. We categorize people citing lies and distortions of facts in the place of truth as bigoted. Many of those people do call themselves Christian, but I would hardly characterize their agenda as such.

Quote: there is nothing wrong with being gay.
there is alot wrong with accepting something you dont like being.
www.NARTH.org
But there is something wrong with blindly accepting bad research and misapplying the findings of good research. There is something wrong with research that is carried out with a political agenda in mind. (and that goes for both sides).

NARTH is a long way from being an unbiased source.

Nelson · Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 12:10 am Post subject:

The idea that children decide they are gay because it is an encouraged lifestyle choice is pretty funny. Do you know how many children are ostracized from their homes and by all of their family and friends because of their 'lifestyle choice'?

There is no question in my mind that homosexuality is partly genetic. Not completely, but partly.

SavannahMan · Joined: 09 Jun 2004 Posts: 1307

Nelson wrote: The idea that children decide they are gay because it is an encouraged lifestyle choice is pretty funny. Do you know how many children are ostracized from their homes and by all of their family and friends because of their 'lifestyle choice'?

There is no question in my mind that homosexuality is partly genetic. Not completely, but partly.

To differing degrees kids are also ostacized from their family and friends growing up because they choose to drink or do drugs or not drink or not do drugs, by the clothes they wear, by the music they listen to, by their political and religious beliefs - are those things genetic also?

Just because a lifestyle choice has negative consequences doesn't mean people don't choose to make them. Happens every day. The argument that simply because it makes them ostracized means it must be genetic is absolutely ridiculous.

Is playing Dungeons and Dragons "genetic"? :lol:

F'losrix · Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 3:57 pm Post subject:

SavannahMan wrote: Nelson wrote: The idea that children decide they are gay because it is an encouraged lifestyle choice is pretty funny. Do you know how many children are ostracized from their homes and by all of their family and friends because of their 'lifestyle choice'?

There is no question in my mind that homosexuality is partly genetic. Not completely, but partly.

To differing degrees kids are also ostacized from their family and friends growing up because they choose to drink or do drugs or not drink or not do drugs, by the clothes they wear, by the music they listen to, by their political and religious beliefs - are those things genetic also?

Just because a lifestyle choice has negative consequences doesn't mean people don't choose to make them. Happens every day. The argument that simply because it makes them ostracized means it must be genetic is absolutely ridiculous.

Is playing Dungeons and Dragons "genetic"? :lol:
Apparently 'Dungeons and Dragons' is one of the catchphrases of the latest ultra rightwing talking points - this is the second post where I've encountered it in less than 5 minutes.

You've constructed quite a distortion of the prior poster's argument, claiming they've made an assertion that didn't exist there and pretending to refute it.

Just because someone is ostracized, that doesn't mean it always takes place as a consequence of some action or choice they took. There is no logic at all in your response. Part of your opening premise asks us to posit as true that homosexuality is a 'lifestyle choice', conveniently ignoring that this is not conclusively proved as fact. We cannot form any kind of reasonable conclusion from premises that are in dispute. And so, your argument fails.

SavannahMan · Joined: 09 Jun 2004 Posts: 1307

Let me try to state it in simple terms for you Skeptic

Your "side" claims homosexuality isn't a choice because they say "who would make such a horrible self-destructive choice?" - interesting argument to say the least but the fact is people make horrible self-destructive choices every day - not just those choosing homosexuality.

If homosexuality is genetic how come the powerful and wealthy homosexual lobby hasn't been able to prove it? How come they have actually given up tryng to prove it? Hint: Because it is not genetic.

Eichen · Joined: 30 Dec 2005 Posts: 1045 Location: Tampa, FL

I personally couldn't care less what the "cause" is of sexual orientation. I think the discovery of a "gay gene" could hurt the gay rights cause, by allowing people to label it as a "disease". Actually, I'm suprised the Jesusfreaks and bigots aren't all over that sh!t. It would give those whackjobs a free pass to dismiss their opponents arguments like "Awwww, don't mind them. They can't help that they're retarded". Pity's not complimentary.

I believe it's probably a collection of factors, not having one so-called cause. I can empathize with both the "it's a choice" and "it was never a choice" crowd.
I choose to date men on occasion, but I usually date women. I feel I'm naturally attracted to both. So "choice" is definitely something I'm comfortable with, and enthusiastically embrace.

F'losrix · Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 5:09 pm Post subject:

SavannahMan wrote: Let me try to state it in simple terms for you Skeptic

Your "side" claims homosexuality isn't a choice because they say "who would make such a horrible self-destructive choice?" - interesting argument to say the least but the fact is people make horrible self-destructive choices every day - not just those choosing homosexuality.
I find it exceedingly difficult to have a rational discussion with you, since you keep insisting upon making statements that posit your opinion about homosexualiity being a choice as if it were proved fact, when it is not.

The fact that people make horrible, self-destructive choices every day is not evidence that homosexuality represents such a choice, or that it represents any form of choice at all. Nor that it is 'horrible' and 'self-destructive'.

Why don't you try answer the actual question? Why would someone choose to be homosexual? The answer is that you don't have a logical explanation to back up your claim, so instead you resort to distortions and distractions as your form of argument.

Quote: If homosexuality is genetic how come the powerful and wealthy homosexual lobby hasn't been able to prove it?
You have some pretty exaggerated notions of how 'wealthy' the 'homosexual lobby' is, and no concept of the real cost, technology requirements and limitations of the science involved, etc.

Quote: How come they have actually given up tryng to prove it?
Who says they have? And who says it's just the 'homosexual lobby' that is interested in this research?

Quote: Hint: Because it is not genetic.
Hint: Because you don't have a real argument to make.

We don't know what causes it. We don't know whether there's a genetic component and how important/unimportant that component may be in the greater scheme of things. We have evidence that appears to point to some sort of genetic or biological link, but no absolute proof, meaning we can't reach a definite conclusion as of yet.

You see, I very readily admit that we lack absolute proof of a genetic connection at this point in time. You keep making the mistake of trying to run with that idea to form an illogical conclusion: that the lack of absolute proof of a genetic connection somehow means there must be no genetic connection whatsoever. You are trying to use a premise that admits doubt as the means to argue your forgone conclusion. Doubtful premises never prove anything, except that doubt remains.

F'losrix · Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 5:11 pm Post subject:

Eichen wrote: I personally couldn't care less what the "cause" is of sexual orientation. I think the discovery of a "gay gene" could hurt the gay rights cause, by allowing people to label it as a "disease". Actually, I'm suprised the Jesusfreaks and bigots aren't all over that sh!t. It would give those whackjobs a free pass to dismiss their opponents arguments like "Awwww, don't mind them. They can't help that they're retarded". Pity's not complimentary.

I believe it's probably a collection of factors, not having one so-called cause. I can empathize with both the "it's a choice" and "it was never a choice" crowd.
I choose to date men on occasion, but I usually date women. I feel I'm naturally attracted to both. So "choice" is definitely something I'm comfortable with, and enthusiastically embrace.
I find it necessary to point out here that you don't make a 'choice' regarding whom to find attractive though, do you? What you choose is whether or not to pursue that attraction.

Orientation is not behavior, and behavior is not orientation.

SavannahMan · Joined: 09 Jun 2004 Posts: 1307

Skeptical Mystic wrote: Why don't you try answer the actual question? Why would someone choose to be homosexual? The answer is that you don't have a logical explanation

Why would someone choose to be a crackhead? I don't have a logical explanation for that either - so by your standards I guess it must be genetic too?

Eichen makes a good point though - if it is proven to be a genetic malfunction at least then we could start working towards prevention and a cure.

Eichen · Joined: 30 Dec 2005 Posts: 1045 Location: Tampa, FL

SavannahMan wrote: Eichen makes a good point though - if it is proven to be a genetic malfunction at least then we could start working towards prevention and a cure.
My point exactly. The evidence some in the homosexual community are seeking is too easily co-opted by the crazy opposition. Bad, bad idea, IMHO.

StrangerWitCandy · Joined: 02 Feb 2005 Posts: 4913 Location: Fairfax, VA

SavannahMan wrote: Skeptical Mystic wrote: Why don't you try answer the actual question? Why would someone choose to be homosexual? The answer is that you don't have a logical explanation

Why would someone choose to be a crackhead? I don't have a logical explanation for that either - so by your standards I guess it must be genetic too?

a crackhead gets high. what does a gay person get?

Æ · Joined: 17 Jun 2005 Posts: 5072

Quote: To differing degrees kids are also ostacized from their family and friends growing up because they choose to drink or do drugs or not drink or not do drugs, by the clothes they wear, by the music they listen to, by their political and religious beliefs - are those things genetic also?
Choices are not genetic, but a predisposition to making those choices can be.

Quote: Just because a lifestyle choice has negative consequences doesn't mean people don't choose to make them. Happens every day. The argument that simply because it makes them ostracized means it must be genetic is absolutely ridiculous.
That isn't the argument.

Æ · Joined: 17 Jun 2005 Posts: 5072

Quote: Why would someone choose to be a crackhead? I don't have a logical explanation for that either - so by your standards I guess it must be genetic too?
The choice to be a crackhead is not genetic, although the predisposition towards making such a choice can be genetic.

Quote: Eichen makes a good point though - if it is proven to be a genetic malfunction at least then we could start working towards prevention and a cure.
I thought you and your ilk were opposed to screwing around with mother nature. I also thought that Republicans believed in state's rights. Truth is, they only care about what works to their advantage.

F'losrix · Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 6:28 pm Post subject:

SavannahMan wrote: Skeptical Mystic wrote: Why don't you try answer the actual question? Why would someone choose to be homosexual? The answer is that you don't have a logical explanation

Why would someone choose to be a crackhead? I don't have a logical explanation for that either
Don't have one, or don't want to take the time to analyze the possibilities?

Quote: so by your standards I guess it must be genetic too?
You mean by your nonsensical interpretation of what you assert is my standard.

Quote: Eichen makes a good point though - if it is proven to be a genetic malfunction at least then we could start working towards prevention and a cure.
Good luck with that.

Demonic Spoon · Joined: 20 Sep 2004 Posts: 6788 Location: Ohio

People do pretend to be gay. Just because it is illogical does not mean people don't do it.

Æ · Joined: 17 Jun 2005 Posts: 5072

Demonic Spoon wrote: People do pretend to be gay. Just because it is illogical does not mean people don't do it.
Please provide some proof.