Political Crossfire Forums

[Joost]

mwm1331 wrote:
Joost, the simple truth is Killing a human because you don't believe it deserves to live is wrong. There is nothing to discuss.

:roll:

[Gnostic]

[quote="mwm1331"] Gnostic wrote: mwm1331 wrote: Joost wrote:



Its very simple joost, The fetus is a human life.
To kill a human life for no reson other than you don'
t feel it deserves to live is wrong.

That is YOUR opinion and YOUR morality. And it's your opinion based morality you are trying to force upon another's body as well. Rather tyrannical, would'nt you say?

Maybe the whole thing boils down to one issue. Privacy. And your lack of respect for it and other people's right to it. Because if you kept your nose where it belongs, in your business and morals, then you won't know about what Joe Blow is doing down the street and it won't affect you one tiny iota, except to deny you your curious, inexplicable, incessant obsessions with other people's private lives and matters.


Tyrannical? No I would say that you enforcing your morality on millions of innocent fetus's every year is tyranncial.

A waoman can do anything she want with her body the fetus is not her body though. It is its own body.l
Privacy? No one has a right to murder privately. Stop slaughtering millions of Americans every year, and I'll be happy to leave you alone.

A fetus is inside a woman's body. Therefor, it is a PART of her body. Therefor, she should have the free will to do what she WANTS with her own body, without a bunch of do-good busy-body wingnuts trying to strip her of her liberties and even power over her OWN BODY.

THAT, is totalitarian. Any person that tries to tell ME what to do with my own body better be backed up by alot of serious weaponry, that's all I have to say about it personally, laws or no laws.

Aborting a fetus is not murder. I am against LATE term abortions, basically because there is'nt any excuse for it (save cases where the woman's life or health is at risk). But early fetuses are just a blob of cells. Nothing more. I could say that we should outlaw masturbation because, after all, those little spermies swimming around in your nutsacks are actually POTENTIAL BABIES and by your masturbating and ejaculating into or on anything that is'nt going towards procreation is MURDER. Sorry for the crude language, but hey, if we are going to start talking about controlling people's bodies, then let's have at it then. Would you like someone telling you that you can't play with yourself? I know you do. Every man does. And most women too. So why don't you just admit you do, and that it's wrong. Oh, getting a little too PERSONAL for you? Hmmmm.

And, are YOU personally going to take all these unwanted kids into YOUR home? Are you going to raise them? Support them? Tell me, how many kids have you so far adopted? 1? 3? 5? What?? You have'nt adopted any at all? Oh my. Hmmmm. :roll:

Oh, and let's not forget, when you legislate people's rights away, especially something as personal as this, they will find other ways of going about it anyway. That in turn will of course create back-alley abortion butcher shops, and alot of women will get hurt. Is that also a part of your agenda?

[Gnostic]

"THAT, is totalitarian. Any person that tries to tell ME what to do with my own body better be backed up by alot of serious weaponry, that's all I have to say about it personally, laws or no laws. "

heh, I just made a funny!

I mean, is'nt it funny how this society will rather hurt you to keep yourself from hurting yourself? :lol:

It's just like with the drug war and laws. They would rather lock you up, call you a felon, and completely DESTROY your life......before they will let you snort a little cocaine.....because it will HURT you! :shock:

Or how some would prevent some 18 year old kid from having another kid of her own, though it will most likely destroy her chances of success in this tougher world, cause her serious distress and completely alter her life, because, by god, we need another little hellion running around.

Ahh, the irony kills me. I need a drink.

[mwm1331]

Chaos_Leviathan wrote: mwm1331 wrote: Chaos_Leviathan wrote: mwm1331 wrote: Chaos_Leviathan wrote: A fetus is not yet alive because it can not continue living without outside assistance.

Contradictory.
Either a fetus is not alive or it is.
It can not be both "not alive" and need its mother to "continue to live"

Fine then it is a parisite stealing life from the mother.

My meaning there was that it is not its own personal entity with a right to life (a.k.a. alive) untill it can survive without life support from the mother.

I see so you feel the right to life is only to be extended to those who do not need external support for life.
So at what point would you say the fetus can support itself without help from its mother? 20, 21?

A new born also can not survive without life support. Food, shetler, etc.
So what?
Neither can those in comas, is it wrong to kill them?

By your logic I should have the right to kill anyone who rents a room from me becuase "its my house"

So tell me, how old were you when your mom told you you were a prarsite?

No a newborn can survive without life support for extended periods of time. Some cultures used to leave their newborns on a hilltop over night to test and see whether it was healthy or not. Most of them survived. Newborns survive without the mechanical functions of life being preformed for them by their mother.

As for people in coma's if they are brain dead and require life support then... yes it is okay to let them die.

If you let me stay in you house you would have the right to evict me at any time you chose. If i died as a result that is not you problem.

As for your final comment I will ask you to refrain from personal attacks. This is a courtesy I have extended to you and would like to receive it in kind.

A single night on a hilltop means they don't need to be cared for?
That they don't require another for food, for shelter for clothing, that they are not helpless in the face of the world?
If its OK to kill a man in a coma then why is it murder to do unless your a doctor? If they had no rights, no standing, then slaughter is not a crime is it?
If I "evict" you as a lesee by ramming a steel spike into your skull is that OK?
You called the fetus a prasite, you and I were both fetus once, when did you cease being a parasite? Its not an insult I am asking.

Face it you support abortion but you weren't aborted, you want others to suffer for your ideaology.
When it comes to abortion your a chicken-hawk.

[Chaos_Leviathan]

mwm1331 wrote:
A single night on a hilltop means they don't need to be cared for?
That they don't require another for food, for shelter for clothing, that they are not helpless in the face of the world?

No, but what it does mean is that the newborn is able to circulate and filter its blood without assistance. It is able to excrete waste without assistance. It is able to breath without assistance. A fetus shares its mothers blood, absorbs nutrients from the mothers blood stream and excretes its waste back into the blood stream.

mwm1331 wrote:
If its OK to kill a man in a coma then why is it murder to do unless your a doctor? If they had no rights, no standing, then slaughter is not a crime is it?

We are talking about a hypothetical situation here because a doctor is not allowed to pull the plug on any patient unless they (the doctor) have direct consent from the patient's family. The doctor does not always pull the plug sometimes in very personal situation a close group of family members will do it with the doctor's instructions. A doctor's consent is normally required to prevent family members from arbitrarily deciding that a relative needs to die. The doctor confirms vegetable status. If you slaughter a chicken is it a crime? Is it a crime to put down a rabid dog?

mwm1331 wrote:
If I "evict" you as a lesee by ramming a steel spike into your skull is that OK?

If I refuse to leave, offer harm to you or your family, then yes.

mwm1331 wrote:
You called the fetus a prasite, you and I were both fetus once, when did you cease being a parasite? Its not an insult I am asking.

Face it you support abortion but you weren't aborted, you want others to suffer for your ideaology.
When it comes to abortion your a chicken-hawk.

I ceased to be a parasite when if I were removed from the womb I could live without a respirator or other apparatus.

I wasn't aborted because I was a planed child. Both my parents knew what they were getting in to. They knew they wanted another child and stopped using birth control. If you had your way plenty of people would suffer due to your ideology. Every time an abortion was stopped three lives would be potentially ruined, the mother, the father, and the child.

You may look down on abortion but if you were a sixteen year old girl who is the weeks late after prom night, you might think differently.

You still haven't answered my comments in my first post about religious fear of promiscuity as a secondary reason for an antiabortion lobby.

[mwm1331]

Gnostic wrote:

A fetus is inside a woman's body. Therefor, it is a PART of her body. Therefor, she should have the free will to do what she WANTS with her own body, without a bunch of do-good busy-body wingnuts trying to strip her of her liberties and even power over her OWN BODY.

It has a unique genetic code, its own circulatory and respritory system, its own organs, its own brain etc.
Seperate, body, seperate life.
I find many people inconvienient, I don't kill them, neither should you.

Quote:
Aborting a fetus is not murder. I am against LATE term abortions, basically because there is'nt any excuse for it (save cases where the woman's life or health is at risk). But early fetuses are just a blob of cells. Nothing more. I could say that we should outlaw masturbation because, after all, those little spermies swimming around in your nutsacks are actually POTENTIAL BABIES and by your masturbating and ejaculating into or on anything that is'nt going towards procreation is MURDER. Sorry for the crude language, but hey, if we are going to start talking about controlling people's bodies, then let's have at it then. Would you like someone telling you that you can't play with yourself? I know you do. Every man does. And most women too. So why don't you just admit you do, and that it's wrong. Oh, getting a little too PERSONAL for you? Hmmmm.

Nice try. Neither sperm on its own, nor an unfertilised egg will ever become anything else. Once the two sepearte elements join however they become more than the sum of thier parts, they becom a human life.
Quote:
And, are YOU personally going to take all these unwanted kids into YOUR home? Are you going to raise them? Support them? Tell me, how many kids have you so far adopted? 1? 3? 5? What?? You have'nt adopted any at all? Oh my. Hmmmm. :roll:

How many times were you aborted?1? 3? 5? WHat you weren't ever aborted?
:roll:
Quote:
Oh, and let's not forget, when you legislate people's rights away, especially something as personal as this, they will find other ways of going about it anyway. That in turn will of course create back-alley abortion butcher shops, and alot of women will get hurt. Is that also a part of your agenda?

No one has the right to kill people because they find that person inconvienient.
its that simple.

[mwm1331]

Chaos_Leviathan wrote:
No, but what it does mean is that the newborn is able to circulate and filter its blood without assistance. It is able to excrete waste without assistance. It is able to breath without assistance. A fetus shares its mothers blood, absorbs nutrients from the mothers blood stream and excretes its waste back into the blood stream.

Nor can many patients in the ICU. So what?
It may share some of its mothers functions, but it is still and indepenadant life.


Quote:
We are talking about a hypothetical situation here because a doctor is not allowed to pull the plug on any patient unless they (the doctor) have direct consent from the patient's family. The doctor does not always pull the plug sometimes in very personal situation a close group of family members will do it with the doctor's instructions. A doctor's consent is normally required to prevent family members from arbitrarily deciding that a relative needs to die. The doctor confirms vegetable status. If you slaughter a chicken is it a crime? Is it a crime to put down a rabid dog?

Are dogs or chickens human?

Quote:
If I refuse to leave, offer harm to you or your family, then yes.

What if I just find you inconvient and feel that you don't have a right to live? I mean Its my house right?


Quote:
I ceased to be a parasite when if I were removed from the womb I could live without a respirator or other apparatus.

I wasn't aborted because I was a planed child. Both my parents knew what they were getting in to. They knew they wanted another child and stopped using birth control. If you had your way plenty of people would suffer due to your ideology. Every time an abortion was stopped three lives would be potentially ruined, the mother, the father, and the child.

Potentially? Perhaps, but everytime an abortion happens at least one is guaranteed to be destroyed.
Usually two.
The idea that aborting a fetus is better than allowing it to grow up poor, or disadvantaged is lludicrous. WHo has a better chance of overcomming poverty, a kid born to a bad family or a dead fetus?

Quote:
You may look down on abortion but if you were a sixteen year old girl who is the weeks late after prom night, you might think differently.

You still haven't answered my comments in my first post about religious fear of promiscuity as a secondary reason for an antiabortion lobby.

Promiscuity?
What about it. The Anti-Abortion lobby is about one thing, Stopping the slaughter of millions of american children a year.
I fpeople wwant to be promiscuous its thier choice, but if they get pregnant its simply unetichal to allow them to end the life they created because they are unwilling to accept the responsibility that is inherant in any sex act.
Its simple really, Nature designed sex specifically to produce children, so don't be surprised when it works.

[Chaos_Leviathan]

Dogs and chickens are obviously not human, but they ar more alive than a person who has no brain function never will again and is nothing but a spiritless body such a brain dead person. A fetus does not yet have a spirit so is therefor not yet alive.

If the only way you could evict me was by killing me then yes. I would be ok for you to do that.

Let me ask you a question if there were million of extra kids in the US every year that were given up for adoption because these parents were people that would have had an abortion and we had thousands of state run orphanages to care for these children. Would you then say that the orphanages should be expanded, or parents not allowed to place their unwanted children there, or would you come up with some other solution.

[mwm1331]

Chaos_Leviathan wrote: Dogs and chickens are obviously not human, but they ar more alive than a person who has no brain function never will again and is nothing but a spiritless body such a brain dead person. A fetus does not yet have a spirit so is therefor not yet alive.

Speculation. You don't know whether the spirit exists, and if so at what point a persona develops it.
As for more alive, life is a binary option, either somthing is alive, or its dead, theres no such thing as more alive.
Quote:
If the only way you could evict me was by killing me then yes. I would be ok for you to do that.

What If I just thought killing you was more convienient than evixcting you?
What if I had many other options?
Quote:
Let me ask you a question if there were million of extra kids in the US every year that were given up for adoption because these parents were people that would have had an abortion and we had thousands of state run orphanages to care for these children. Would you then say that the orphanages should be expanded, or parents not allowed to place their unwanted children there, or would you come up with some other solution.
[/quote]
Newsf flash, the number of people who want to adopt, is so overwhelmingly greater than the number of infants up for adoption, that many American couples are adopting children from Asia, Afrrica, Eastern Europe, and Russia.
In point of fact the demand is so high there exists a black market in which new borns are sold to parents who just can't stand the thought of waiting anymore. In fact, its many times easier to find a family for a infant than at any ohter age, every year that goes by the child is less likely to be adopted.
So in point of fact, if every woman thinking about an abortion, had the child and put it up for adoption, not only would it not increase the number of children in orphanages by much if at all, it would make millions of childless couples estatic./

[Chaos_Leviathan]

Nothing in this world is binary without shades of gray. You prefer to narrow you view of life to a black and white perspective which is completely up to you to do, but you shoul know that it is incorrect. Intelligence and mental capacity is what make a life special or unique. It is frowned upon in western culture to eat a dog because it is seen as a more intelligent animal than a chicken. A chicken which is killed only for food is considered more intelligent than say an ant which most people don't get offended when children stomp them and burn them with magnifying glasses. This argument is why is is okay to eat mammals but not intelligent mammals such as a whale of dolphin. A brain dead human in no longer a person, and is less intelligent than a dog. Why should a family have to suffer the sad reminder that they have lost a loved one but see their body constantly growing weaker and decaying before their eyes.

As for the your house metaphor yes if those options you discuss involve me imposing my annoying self upon you and you family for an extended period of time or me possibly severely damaging your home. I know I started this metaphor but it may be taken out of context because when you talk about me personally. I am an intelligent being the things we are talking about are not.

EDIT: I forgot to add this-

As for your comment about adoption how many babies are being adopted every year as opposed to the number of abortions? The reason people are adopting foreign babies because it is cheaper and easier to adopt a foreign baby. The parents adopting foreign babies don't have to go through as strenuous of a process as those adopting a domestic baby. Also I hat to bring up the issue of race but may families are remiss to adopt an African American baby, especially if they can adopt a Russian one cheaper and more easily.

[mwm1331]

Chaos_Leviathan wrote: Nothing in this world is binary without shades of gray. You prefer to narrow you view of life to a black and white perspective which is completely up to you to do, but you shoul know that it is incorrect. Intelligence and mental capacity is what make a life special or unique. It is frowned upon in western culture to eat a dog because it is seen as a more intelligent animal than a chicken. A chicken which is killed only for food is considered more intelligent than say an ant which most people don't get offended when children stomp them and burn them with magnifying glasses. This argument is why is is okay to eat mammals but not intelligent mammals such as a whale of dolphin. A brain dead human in no longer a person, and is less intelligent than a dog. Why should a family have to suffer the sad reminder that they have lost a loved one but see their body constantly growing weaker and decaying before their eyes.

As for the your house metaphor yes if those options you discuss involve me imposing my annoying self upon you and you family for an extended period of time or me possibly severely damaging your home. I know I started this metaphor but it may be taken out of context because when you talk about me personally. I am an intelligent being the things we are talking about are not.

Life is binary. Either somehting is alive or dead, despite Mr Schrodenger's claims there is no such thing as half, and half.
Whether people have a cultural predisposition to take an animal as food or companion has nothing to do whatsoever with whether or not that animal is alive.
Cats dogs, chickens, ant, are are either dead, or alive.
and ant is just as alive as a dog, neither intelligence, nor "value" has any bearing whatsoever on whether an organism is alive or not.

[Gus]

Moved to Abortion.