Political Crossfire Forums

[Saracen]

I'll reply to your posts later, queasy. I'm a bit busy at the moment.

[cap'n queasy]

Alright. Cya later then. :wink:

[Showboat]

The Koran regarding the Holy Trinity of Christianity:

Quote: "4.171": O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.



This verse just claims there is no trinity, and incidently that Jesus is not the Son of God as was discussed earlier in this thread. Although it does seem to say Jesus was the Messiah????

Quote: "5.116": And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things.



This verse clearly states that if Allah is to ask Jesus if he told people to believe in a trinity consisting of Allah, Jesus and Mary, Jesus would deny it. Well of course he would, Christians have never beleived Mary was part of the trinity.

Quote: "5.73": Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three; and there is no god but the one God, and if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement shall befall those among them who disbelieve.

"5.74": Will they not then turn to Allah and ask His forgiveness? And Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

"5.75": The Messiah, son of Marium is but an apostle; apostles before him have indeed passed away; and his mother was a truthful woman; they both used to eat food. See how We make the communications clear to them, then behold, how they are turned away.



These verses state that those who beleive God is three are wrong. Because Jesus and Mary were both human, they both ate food.

Now my point is that as Christians have never beleived that Mary was part of the holy trinity, why does it say they do in the infallible Koran?

[Saracen]

Showboat wrote: This verse just claims there is no trinity, and incidently that Jesus is not the Son of God as was discussed earlier in this thread. Although it does seem to say Jesus was the Messiah????

Yes. The Messiah, or Masseeh, is the savior. He is not part of the Trinity, but he is mentioned here as a savior.

Showboat wrote: This verse clearly states that if Allah is to ask Jesus if he told people to believe in a trinity consisting of Allah, Jesus and Mary, Jesus would deny it. Well of course he would, Christians have never beleived Mary was part of the trinity.

Neither do we. But it's stating that Mary was not a Mother of God (sAA).

Showboat wrote: Now my point is that as Christians have never beleived that Mary was part of the holy trinity, why does it say they do in the infallible Koran?

Like I said, my friend. It's a literal interpretation. She was not part of the trinity. But she was no mother of God either (sAA).

[Showboat]

I have to disagree Moath.



Quote: Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah

To me this clearly states a trinity of Gods. Jesus and his Mother and Allah. There is no mention of Christians belief in the Holy Spirit, it seems to me that Mary is in place of the Holy Spirit. There is no mention of Christians beleiving Mary is the Mother of God in the verses I mentioned only her and Jesus being Gods besides Allah.

Do you know of any Koran web site with commentry that I can see? I've looked but to no avail.

PS As you said in another post. It's good that there is finally some civilised theological debate here as opposed to some moron going "Your all terrorists" or "Why don't you f**k off back to the desert" etc. If they come back I sware I'm not gonna feed the little bastards.

[Showboat]

I have to disagree Moath.



Quote: Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah

To me this clearly states a trinity of Gods. Jesus and his Mother and Allah. There is no mention of Christians belief in the Holy Spirit, it seems to me that Mary is in place of the Holy Spirit. There is no mention of Christians beleiving Mary is the Mother of God in the verses I mentioned only her and Jesus being Gods besides Allah.

Do you know of any Koran web site with commentry that I can see? I've looked but to no avail.

PS As you said in another post. It's good that there is finally some civilised theological debate here as opposed to some moron going "Your all terrorists" or "Why don't you f**k off back to the desert" etc. If they come back I sware I'm not gonna feed the little bastards.

[Saracen]

Showboat wrote: To me this clearly states a trinity of Gods. Jesus and his Mother and Allah. There is no mention of Christians belief in the Holy Spirit, it seems to me that Mary is in place of the Holy Spirit. There is no mention of Christians beleiving Mary is the Mother of God in the verses I mentioned only her and Jesus being Gods besides Allah.

Ok. I forgot to mention this Surah:

In the Koran, God wrote:

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

112:1 Say: He is God, the One and Only;

112:2 God, the Eternal, Absolute;

112:3 He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;

112:4 And there is none like unto Him."

Keep the bolded part in mind as I give a short rundown.
In Islam, God is strictly transcendent and has no partners. He has no beginning and no end, and is Infinite. Thus, if somthing made Him, then that thing must have been a god (sAA). Therefore, knowing that in Catholicism Mary is sometimes mentioned as a "Mother of God" (sAA), then thus she might have been some sort of goddess (sAA). Now, for the "besides" part... it was intended for the belief of the Trinity. It means that God has never taken any forms whatsoever, not even as Jesus.

It seems that the verse is talking about a TRIO of Gods, not a Trinity. But the transition is really hard for such things. Translations between Arabic Koranic Scripture to English Koranic Translated text are always numerous for one verse. However, take a look at this translation:

God wrote: 5:116 And behold! God will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

This means that they shouldn't be considered as a part of God in a Trinity of Trio in that case. The concept is hard to grasp, yes. But at that time, Jesus had divinity ascribed to him, did he not? Well, in this verse, it shows that he rejected divinity, and the near-divinity of his mother as well. Not as separate Gods, but as forms of God apart from the real God.

Showboat wrote: Do you know of any Koran web site with commentry that I can see? I've looked but to no avail.

Believe me, my newfound friend, I have been looking for the same thing for weeks now. I'll let you know as soon as I get one.

Showboat wrote: PS As you said in another post. It's good that there is finally some civilised theological debate here as opposed to some moron going "Your all terrorists" or "Why don't you f**k off back to the desert" etc. If they come back I sware I'm not gonna feed the little bastards.

I appreciate that, Showboat. A lot. Really. :-D
And yes, if those bastards show up, we'll ignore them unless they start destroying the structure of our conversation. I'm not going to feed them either, but we're still debating. I'm not leaving if they come, and neither will you. :wink:

[Saracen]

cap'n wrote: In essence, that's basically saying you do not believe that God can act in material reality.
The Son is the vehicle by which He created material reality and by which He literally came into material reality to help us, And the Holy Spirit is the Divine Presence, the vehicle by which prophets get their information and the saints are comforted in this mortal realm.
Of course, if you see the Son as a merely a mortal prophet and the Holy Spirit as merely a lesser created being you are going to have much difficulty understanding these concepts. You have no reliable foundational information to build upon.

Well, we believe that God does act in reality, just through a different "medium". God has spoken directly to the Prophet Moses (PBUH) in the Sacred Valley of Tuwa in Sinai, is that correct? Ok. Moses was a single example of how God delivered His message to the prophets.

However, in Islam, the Angels were the ones who passed the Revelation of God to the prophets; that is, the angels were mesengers and acted as a medium between God and His prophets and messengers. Through the Angels, God made His way through material reality in order to preach His message of peace and universal justice that would later become the Scrolls of Abraham, the Psalms of David (there's this one Psalm I really like: "In the valley of the shadow of death..."), the Torah of Moses, the Gospel of Jesus, and the Koran... to Muhammad (peace be upon them all).

As for Creation, God created everything without the help of anyone, and without any medium whatsoever. I've got some links right here that might help towards a better understanding for Creation in Islam, but I'm not an expert on that issue.
http://www.al-islam.org/inquiries/4.html
http://islam.about.com/od/creation/a/creation.htm
We believe that God created the universe out of nothing, and the universe started as a single entity. This entity thus spread apart and a material "like smoke" formed. This "smoke" was actually the precursor to the nebulas we see in the solar system, that gave rise to stars, planets, and so forth:
http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-1-c.htm

P.S. As Showboat said, I'm glad that we're having a civilized debate instead of confronting the head-bashing we're seeing in the P&G section. :-D

[pharaoh]

Quote: Do you know of any Koran web site with commentry that I can see? I've looked but to no avail.


www.al-quran.org.uk
There is a commentry for every chapter in the Koran. Just chose a chapter then click on the commentry on the upper right part of the web page.

On a general note, God is refutting in the verses that you showed all the false believes that Christians have, its not just about the trinity but also about "Mariam mother of god". So realy there is no contradiction.

[Saracen]

pharaoh wrote: Quote: Do you know of any Koran web site with commentry that I can see? I've looked but to no avail.


www.al-quran.org.uk
There is a commentry for every chapter in the Koran. Just chose a chapter then click on the commentry on the upper right part of the web page.

On a general note, God is refutting in the verses that you showed all the false believes that Christians have, its not just about the trinity but also about "Mariam mother of god". So realy there is no contradiction.

Thanks for clearing it up. I thought that site had no commentary.

[pharaoh]

Moath wrote: pharaoh wrote: Quote: Do you know of any Koran web site with commentry that I can see? I've looked but to no avail.


www.al-quran.org.uk
There is a commentry for every chapter in the Koran. Just chose a chapter then click on the commentry on the upper right part of the web page.

On a general note, God is refutting in the verses that you showed all the false believes that Christians have, its not just about the trinity but also about "Mariam mother of god". So realy there is no contradiction.

Thanks for clearing it up. I thought that site had no commentary.

No problemo Amigo.

[Saracen]

pharaoh wrote: No problemo Amigo.

Ihki 3arabi, ya zalameh. :wink: :lol:

[Glorfindel]

Showboat wrote: The Koran regarding the Holy Trinity of Christianity:

Quote: "4.171": O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.



This verse just claims there is no trinity, and incidently that Jesus is not the Son of God as was discussed earlier in this thread. Although it does seem to say Jesus was the Messiah????

Quote: "5.116": And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things.



This verse clearly states that if Allah is to ask Jesus if he told people to believe in a trinity consisting of Allah, Jesus and Mary, Jesus would deny it. Well of course he would, Christians have never beleived Mary was part of the trinity.

Quote: "5.73": Certainly they disbelieve who say: Surely Allah is the third (person) of the three; and there is no god but the one God, and if they desist not from what they say, a painful chastisement shall befall those among them who disbelieve.

"5.74": Will they not then turn to Allah and ask His forgiveness? And Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

"5.75": The Messiah, son of Marium is but an apostle; apostles before him have indeed passed away; and his mother was a truthful woman; they both used to eat food. See how We make the communications clear to them, then behold, how they are turned away.



These verses state that those who beleive God is three are wrong. Because Jesus and Mary were both human, they both ate food.

Now my point is that as Christians have never beleived that Mary was part of the holy trinity, why does it say they do in the infallible Koran?

showboat, there is one thing I need to clarify to you

in those verses from Qur'an, they never stated that mary IS one of the holy trinity...

they said that some christians will revere her and make more than a human being out of her...

but those verses did not specifically say that the holy trinity in christianity is the father, the son, and mary the mother of God...

those verses just stated that some christians will revere Mary because of her status as the mother of Jesus and may ask of her and pray to her to heal and protect or whatsoever...

and there are christians who think of Mary to have exceptional abilities and believe that she can help them and protect them.... and the stories of seeing statues of Mary cring with blood and in the sky in Mexico and people in lines to see the so-called miracle to ask for forgivness or health or wealth from that statue... that what defies the idea of worshipping one and only one God...

because one must believe that all matters concering him are in god's hand and that only God can heal him , give him wealth, and protect him. thus, only to God must one pray and depend on. not to a statue of Mary or St.Joseph can provide you with anything.

and thats also a common thing between christians who believe that certain saints can help them and provide guidance, even though they have been dead from many centuries.

so you see now the confusion you got yourself into... those verses never said anything about the trinity... it said that some certain people will worship and revere Jesus or Mary and that God will ask Jesus if he told those people to worship him, and to such question Jesus will answer with denial

if you read those verses again , you will discover there was no literal reference to the trinity and its three parts..they only talked about the mistake that some christians will fall in when they give God partners to worship with god (Jesus, Mary , some other saints), and thats the simple and basic definition of polytheism

do you see what I'm talking about?