Political Crossfire Forums

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16432 Location: On Earth

Showboat wrote: Easy the Madonna says oh s**t I'm up the duff how can this be???? I've never even had it off!!! And Allah/God's like "Don't worry love, it was me I made you pregnant" Now you don't need a PHD in biology to know whoever makes a bird pregnant is the dad.

Whoa, whoa, Showboat. Don't rush into conclusions just yet! :shock:

God, in the Koran, wrote: 3:45 Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;

3:46 "He shall speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. And he shall be (of the company) of the righteous."

3:47 She said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man hath touched me?" He said: "Even so: God createth what He willeth: When He hath decreed a plan, He but saith to it, 'Be,' and it is!

See? Through the angels, who blew a spirit into her womb, and by God's Word (similar to the "by His Word" in Genesis, Creation), the womb was fertilized and Jesus grew inside his mother's womb.

Quote: This clearly talks about The Last Day when we will be judged and each nation will be judged on it's own book. So I'll be judged on the NT as that is my book. This Last Day is obviously after your prophet but still every nation called to it's book.

Yes, and no. Yes, in that those who were taught by their books will go to Heaven, and no if they learned about the Truth of God, but Glorfindel can explain more.

Showboat · Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 10:33 pm Post subject:

Were any other prophets in Islam conceived in such a divine fashion?

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16432 Location: On Earth

Showboat wrote: Were any other prophets in Islam conceived in such a divine fashion?

Yes. Adam (PBUH). God was able to create Adam without a mother and a father. So He created Jesus without a father. Eh? :wink:

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Jesus is not a created being.

Quote: John 1:1-4 -1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.
Let me explain the way I see it. Probably most people would probably disagree but this is what I think.

The Living God, the one and only Almighty is a spirit which is ineffable and unknowable. He is Holy and his full Glory would destroy the very fabric of the material existence.

So in order to create the material world and the heavens He had an aspect of His unknowable ultimate nature create the material world. This is what we call the Son. This aspect of Himself also CAME INTO His own creation in order to save us, a miserably low form of intelligent life who was tricked into the material existence by a powerful celestial being who had, by his own pride, defied the Father of All and been cast into the material existence.

The Divine presence of the Almighty is the Shekinah, what Christians call the Holy Spirit. This is another aspect of God that we can detect on the material realm.

So there are two aspects of God that are directly perceivable to us in the Material realm the Son and the Holy Spirit.

The authority that these aspects have is the same authority as that of which they are aspects of. The Almighy Ancient of Ages, the Alpha and Omega, the Living God.

That is not three gods but one extremely powerful and Holy God that is so unknowable to us that we know Him only through contact with two aspects of His being. What we call the Son and the Holy Spirit.

The Son dwells on His Fathers Throne. The Holy Spirit is the Divine Glory and Presence of the Lord.

We don't know much about this celestial business here on Earth but most of us can detect the Divine Presence in our hearts.

The problem is listening to the Divine Presence in our hearts instead of our animal instincts.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Imagine God as the owner of an aquarium who wants to change the arrangement of the scenery aquarium.

What does He do?

He sticks His hands in the aquarium and does want He wants to do.

The aquarium is the material universe and His two hands are the Son and the Holy Spirit.

He also has workers called angels to help. Some do not like the fish in the aquarium so they try to hinder instead of help.

Would you say the hand of God is another being separate from God or part of God?

We are a little like fish in God's aquarium, we see stuff but we don't really know what it is.

But unlike those fish we have the ability to see the truth.

That God is almighty and we exist only at His pleasure.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16432 Location: On Earth

Wait... is this about Tehom? :-D

I took that in religion class.

Showboat · Posted: Sun Jan 29, 2006 12:34 am Post subject:

The mention of the Trinity brings up another question about the Koran.

The Koran claims that Christians misbeleive that God is three. It goes on to say that Jesus and his mother were human. Now thats fine but we don't believe nor ever have that Saint Mary is part of the Holy Trinity??

Koran 4:169; 5:77; and 5:116

Why would God tell this falsehood to the Prophet??

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16432 Location: On Earth

Can you bring up the original verses themselves?
I can help you then.
But for now, we don't believe in the Trinity that is held in Christianity. About that "God is three" part, is a literal translation, whereas it really refers to the Trinity. I know what the Koran is about. Don't take it literally. Find commentary on the verses first.
Hope that helps. :-D

Dagger · Joined: 25 Apr 2005 Posts: 459 Location: Vancouver BC

Trinity, always confused me, i asked some serious Christian friends,

by the time i finish with them, they say "its hard to explain, you don't understand"

God is god, he has a son jesus, but jesus is also god in human form, and then the third part just blows it out of complete proportion. Holy spirit?...

Sorry kinda of topic but had to add that in. Sorry if that sounds ignorent or rude, im just confuysed....

I really like the explaination that Jesus is a prophet of god...

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Moath wrote: Wait... is this about Tehom? :-D

I took that in religion class.

I'm not familiar with that.

Dagger · Joined: 25 Apr 2005 Posts: 459 Location: Vancouver BC

ya, ive never heard of tehom either...

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16432 Location: On Earth

cap'n queasy wrote: Moath wrote: Wait... is this about Tehom? :-D

I took that in religion class.

I'm not familiar with that.

Tehome, or something like that, linguistically comparable to Tiamat, the ancient Mesopotamian mythical dragon-creature... or something like that. Also called the "deep waters"... Rings a bell, sir?

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

What does that have to do with the subject?

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24244

Moath wrote: Can you bring up the original verses themselves?
I can help you then.
But for now, we don't believe in the Trinity that is held in Christianity. About that "God is three" part, is a literal translation, whereas it really refers to the Trinity. I know what the Koran is about. Don't take it literally. Find commentary on the verses first.
Hope that helps. :-D

Christians do not believe that God is three. We believe that God is ONE. The whole doctrine of the Trinity is about the nature of God...that He has a triune nature....kinda like humans also have a triune nature...body soul and spirit. Just forget about thinking that Christians believe in three gods....it really isn't the case and never has been. Like I said...the trinity is just a deeper understanding of the nature of God.

I would think that IF the Koran was inspired by God...then it wouldn't make this mistake in understanding what Christians believe.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23468 Location: California

Moath wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Moath wrote: Wait... is this about Tehom? :-D

I took that in religion class.

I'm not familiar with that.

Tehome, or something like that, linguistically comparable to Tiamat, the ancient Mesopotamian mythical dragon-creature... or something like that. Also called the "deep waters"... Rings a bell, sir?
Yes, it does.. v'hoshech al-peney tehom.. "the darkness upon the surface of the deep". It's from Gen 1:2

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16432 Location: On Earth

John wrote: Moath wrote: Can you bring up the original verses themselves?
I can help you then.
But for now, we don't believe in the Trinity that is held in Christianity. About that "God is three" part, is a literal translation, whereas it really refers to the Trinity. I know what the Koran is about. Don't take it literally. Find commentary on the verses first.
Hope that helps. :-D

Christians do not believe that God is three. We believe that God is ONE. The whole doctrine of the Trinity is about the nature of God...that He has a triune nature....kinda like humans also have a triune nature...body soul and spirit. Just forget about thinking that Christians believe in three gods....it really isn't the case and never has been. Like I said...the trinity is just a deeper understanding of the nature of God.

I would think that IF the Koran was inspired by God...then it wouldn't make this mistake in understanding what Christians believe.

John, I just said that the translation is literal and short-coming. We don't believe that God is three, but God is ONE, but the Trinity is something we don't believe in. We know what the Trinity is, but we don't believe in it. :wink:

cap'n queasy wrote: What does that have to do with the subject?

You were talking about Creation.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

That has nothing to do with anything I was talking about.

But I did find out something interesting, Tehom means the deep or the Abyss. The Mesopotamians saw this as represented by a theriomorphic being. It's an interesting subject but I don't find it relevent to the discussion, really. At least not anything I was talking about, anyway.

Does this have some connection with my aquarium analogy? If so, I think perhaps I didn't explain myself as well as I meant to.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16432 Location: On Earth

It seemed to.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: We know what the Trinity is, but we don't believe in it.

In essence, that's basically saying you do not believe that God can act in material reality.

The Son is the vehicle by which He created material reality and by which He literally came into material reality to help us, And the Holy Spirit is the Divine Presence, the vehicle by which prophets get their information and the saints are comforted in this mortal realm.

Of course, if you see the Son as a merely a mortal prophet and the Holy Spirit as merely a lesser created being you are going to have much difficulty understanding these concepts. You have no reliable foundational information to build upon.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: cap'n queasy wrote:
What does that have to do with the subject?

You were talking about Creation.

I was speaking about my ideas on the nature of Deity. I think my using an aquarium as a analogy for creation might have thrown you off on a wild tangent. Switch the word aquarium with terrarium.

Tiamat is a personification of the Abyss. I don't see how it is pertinent to the discussion of the nature of God.