Political Crossfire Forums

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24245

Quote: Again John, my question is: Why didnt god tell us what is the fate of unbaptized children in the bible????

He does. We see it in the record of when King David was griving over his infant son who died.

2 Samuel 12
22 He said, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, 'Who knows, the LORD may be gracious to me, that the child may live.'

23"But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."

And let's not forget.

Deuteronomy 1

39 'Moreover, your little ones who you said would become a prey, and your sons, who this day have no knowledge of good or evil, shall enter there, and I will give it to them and they shall possess it.

Water baptism doesn't save your soul...it's a public recognition of an inwardly change that's happened. It represents the future event of the resurrection where the born again will receive a body without the sin nature. It’s a public statement of Faith.

Quote: Just imagine for a moment that you had a child and for some unfortunate reason he/she died before baptism. Now imagine yourself, a religious and devoted Christian as you are, in a position where you dont know what will be your childs fate in the after life, even worse, most priests and the Church says he/she will go to hell. What do you think about that?

I trust in my Lord. I have no worries about His decisions. I know that He makes the right ones. In other words...I don't have any need in even considering that God sends babies to Hell.

pharaoh · Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 4:25 pm Post subject:

Okay as usual you didnt answer all of my questions. Does it makes you sleep tight at night?

Quote: Of course not. You're responsible for your own sin...but you're a sinner because of your nature, which you inherited from Adam and Eve.

This isn't hard stuff.

No no no, you are back peddling.
We sinned because we have free will not because we inherited it from Adam a and Eve. There is a HUGE difference between the 2.
Adam and Eve sinned because they had free will and when you have free will and you are volatile to the devil you sin.
As I said, you Christians need to believe that every born child carry the original sin with him in order to justify Jesus sacrifice. Or esle why Jesus died? Cant you see? Jesus pupils didnt understand or didnt realize that Jesus was raised to god, they thought he died so in order to justify his death they lied to all of you and said that he died for a certain reason, to save us all. That way people can understand why, the son of god, was killed. Now, I dont know about you but all this stuff about God allowing Jesus to die and even more to be tortured is just waaay over the top. I could write a 10,000 essay about why all of this is wrong and illogical but thats not what we are talking about here so anway.

Just think John, think for a moment and just free yourself from your believes, being wrong doesnt mean that Islam is right so just dont be afraid to question your believes. The question (again) is : if as you say children do not carry the original sin with them then why do they go to hell? Why should they be baptized to be saved?
Again: Imagine yourself in the place of a dad who just lost his unbaptized son in a certain accident. What would you feel? Isnt harsh to go to hell for a sin that a baby didnt commit or even didnt realize?

pharaoh · Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 4:27 pm Post subject:

John wrote: Quote: If Jesus already sacrificed himself for us then why can Christians, who naturaly believe in Christ the savior, go to hell??

They can't. If you're born again...you will not go to Hell.

Ok so Hitler now is in heaven??

Dont try to diss him as being non Christian, you will lose this debate.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24245

pharaoh wrote: John wrote: Quote: If Jesus already sacrificed himself for us then why can Christians, who naturaly believe in Christ the savior, go to hell??

They can't. If you're born again...you will not go to Hell.

Ok so Hitler now is in heaven??

Dont try to diss him as being non Christian, you will lose this debate.

Hitler wasn't a born again Christian. His works prove that.

Calling yourself a Christian and going to church and all that jazz doesn't mean you're a born again Christian....and if you're not born again...you're not going to Heaven. That's the difference between Christianity and Islam. Christianity it based off of a REAL change that literally happens to the person thru being born again.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24245

Quote: Just think John, think for a moment and just free yourself from your believes, being wrong doesnt mean that Islam is right so just dont be afraid to question your believes. The question (again) is : if as you say children do not carry the original sin with them then why do they go to hell? Why should they be baptized to be saved?
Again: Imagine yourself in the place of a dad who just lost his unbaptized son in a certain accident. What would you feel? Isnt harsh to go to hell for a sin that a baby didnt commit or even didnt realize?

Did you even read what I wrote?

Jesus died for the sins of ALL men. Done. My sins and your sins have already been paid for. Done...get it?

You will go to Hell for REJECTING the Lord who has paid the price for you. A little child's sins were paid for by the Lord Jesus Christ. His death atoned for the original sin....the little child who hasn't come of the age of accountability isn't held accountable for rejecting the Lord.

Think about it. The Lord God HIMSELF humbled Himself to die on a cross to pay for your sins...and you're like, "No thanks God...I don't believe that. I'm gonna earn my own Salvation with my own good deeds. If my good deeds out wiegh my bad ones...you'll surely see that I deserve Salvation."

Can't you see how wrong that is?

Glorfindel · Joined: 06 Oct 2004 Posts: 485 Location: AlRiyadh

John wrote: Quote: we did not inherit the sin nature... if what you say is right then we as human have nothing to do to redeem ourselves...

Bingo! The Lord has EVERYTHING to do with redemption.

If we as humans do not have a sin nature...then WHY do we sin? It wouldn't be an issue if it wasn't part of our nature. Yet everyone I've ever met has been a sinner.

Don't kid yourself.......it's part of our very nature to sin.

That's why Islam is false. Because it's a system of what people need to do to redeem themselves. It fails because redemption was never something we could do for ourselves. It's a form of vanity and pride.

Redemption begins with accepting that you're BANKRUMPT, that you can't redeem yourself and that you NEED a redeemer.

Quote: I mean why would God judge us on the nature and instincts he put in us? that does not seem fair

We are the result of the mistake that the first humans made. We are thier fruit. Does a bad tree produce good fruit? No.

God doesn't judge because of our nature...but in the choice that we made about accepting the facts about our nature. He can work with you if you accept Him as the Redeemer.

Quote: doesnt it seem more logical that you will not be charged for anything you have not done?

Are you claiming that you don't sin? How can a sinner redeem himself? It's like expecting a begger to buy a house.

Quote: stopping to do what condemns you ...thats the definition of redemption...that is fairness...it is that simple
add to that admitting your sin and asking God for forgivness and God will forgive you...that's generousity

Have you stopped? Are you without sin? Do you ask God to forgive you and then just turn around and sin again? Why can't you just stop sinning all together?

Quote: how can you change what you are? if you are created to be a sinner then you cant change the way you are created...only that who created you can

You can't. But those whom accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior become "born again". The Holy Spirit of God brings their "spirit man" alive inside of them and it begins a change...kinda like a butterfly. This change is completed at the resurrection where the people who are born again receive a new body without the sin nature.

okay,,,

so you say that God has everything to do with redemption... so if you spend all your life drinking alcohol and damaging your own body... then well you should not try to change and redeem yourself... you just have to wait for God's redemption to come down from heaven and redeem you... without putting any effort in the procedsure...is that what you are saying?

is your solution for every problem that man kind has is to go to a church and admit that Jesus is their savior and wait for the holy spirit to come down and change their spirits?

sin itself is not an instinct... but it is related to real human instincts... like the urges and desire to reproduce with the other sex...you see having sex is not prohibited or wrong... the main Idea of religious laws is to create a system that can grant social harmony and happiness to all members of that society... having sex is not wrong... it is wrong if you have sex before marriage..it is wrong when you have incest...it is wrong to have sex out of wedlock... having sex with your wife is not a sin... but having sex with a strange woman is a sin... do you see the difference here

it is the choices that taken by one man according to his judgement that can be sins or not...in many case those choices are afected by our instincts and lack of good thinking.

you can redeem yourself.. and God can forgive you for those sins you had committed in the past

oh and by the way... is it a good feeling to believe that you are just a mistake made by people before you were born? it is even a better feeling to know that you will also be judged for a part of that mistake as well? why dont you just cut off your penis and stop this inherited sin to be passed on to you kids? is it not better for them never to exist and lern that they are just a part of a chain-like sin that you will never be rid of ..even though you did not really commit?

so humanity and all good things in it is just a bad thing that has been going since Adam and Eve?

I am a sinner... I sin and think about my sin and try to stop them and ask god for forgivness... a beggar can buy a house if he tried and i dont need to come up with stories but we all know that is not impossible

I stopped committing certain sins yes...and sometimes I ask god for forgivness and then I commit another sin and then I think about it and try to stop doing it and ask god to forgive me...

you are expected to sin ..but you are also told and taught that if you commit a sin then you should stop committing it and ask God for forgivness... not say that you are waiting for God to redeem you and not doing anything to fix the problem yourself...

you can't stop sinning because this life is full of temptations that man may not be able to neglect ... temptations that can lead a man to sin... like the example I gave you about sex... the desire to reproduce is an instinct in all of us ... IT IS NOT A SIN... the sin is the action that one might commit in order to fullfil this instinct... clear?

and about the original sin... lemme ask you this... if your father once stole, should you be persecuted and punished for his crime? I know that the US law can not be more just and fair than God... if God wouldn't judge you for the sins of your direct father...why would he judge you for the sin of your very first great grandfather?

I'm not really looking for you to admit that what I say is more logical and fair... I know that in heart you know what I say is right and reasonable...you don't need to think that I'm trying to extract a confession from you

thanks for having this debate with me

peace

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16432 Location: On Earth

John wrote: pharaoh wrote: John wrote: Quote: If Jesus already sacrificed himself for us then why can Christians, who naturaly believe in Christ the savior, go to hell??

They can't. If you're born again...you will not go to Hell.

Ok so Hitler now is in heaven??

Dont try to diss him as being non Christian, you will lose this debate.

Hitler wasn't a born again Christian. His works prove that.

Calling yourself a Christian and going to church and all that jazz doesn't mean you're a born again Christian....and if you're not born again...you're not going to Heaven. That's the difference between Christianity and Islam. Christianity it based off of a REAL change that literally happens to the person thru being born again.

Hitler was a Catholic. His heinous crimes have nothing to do with Catholicism. AQ follow suit. Their terrorist acts have nothing to do with Islam and its true beliefs.

As for this "born again" thing, who needs to be born again? I'm Muslim and I discover more of my religion every single day. Islam is based on life and reality as well. There's a lot of scientific truth in the Koran and there's a lot to be said about the Hadith as well.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24245

Quote: so you say that God has everything to do with redemption... so if you spend all your life drinking alcohol and damaging your own body... then well you should not try to change and redeem yourself... you just have to wait for God's redemption to come down from heaven and redeem you... without putting any effort in the procedsure...is that what you are saying?

If I spend all my life drinking alcohol and damaging my own body then I will have a miserable life....and I doubt I would have received the Holy Spirit and been born again. It the change that happens in the heart of a person that completes the connection and empowers them to have a real relationship with the Lord. If you follow rules and regulations for the sake of rules and regulation, without relationship…then you’re wasting your time.

Quote:
is your solution for every problem that man kind has is to go to a church and admit that Jesus is their savior and wait for the holy spirit to come down and change their spirits?

You don't have to go to a church to do it....but yes. Yes it is.

Quote:
sin itself is not an instinct... but it is related to real human instincts... like the urges and desire to reproduce with the other sex...you see having sex is not prohibited or wrong... the main Idea of religious laws is to create a system that can grant social harmony and happiness to all members of that society... having sex is not wrong... it is wrong if you have sex before marriage..it is wrong when you have incest...it is wrong to have sex out of wedlock... having sex with your wife is not a sin... but having sex with a strange woman is a sin... do you see the difference here

Sin is anything that disconnects you from having a relationship with God...in spirit and in truth.

BTW...of course sex with my wife isn't a sin....but even thinking about having sex with someone who isn't my wife is a sin. It's a sin that was commited in my heart.

Quote: you can redeem yourself.. and God can forgive you for those sins you had committed in the past

We would all like to believe that. It's part of our fallen human nature, to want to be self reliant (pride is all it really is). To believe we can do it without God. But that just isn't the truth.

Quote: oh and by the way... is it a good feeling to believe that you are just a mistake made by people before you were born? it is even a better feeling to know that you will also be judged for a part of that mistake as well? why dont you just cut off your penis and stop this inherited sin to be passed on to you kids? is it not better for them never to exist and lern that they are just a part of a chain-like sin that you will never be rid of ..even though you did not really commit?

I don't believe that would be God's will. They should have the choice to choose even if they don't choose the right thing. It brings glory to God; every person that does choose to let God be thier Salvation. All you have to do is accept His Grace. Why is that so hard?

Quote:
so humanity and all good things in it is just a bad thing that has been going since Adam and Eve?

All good things are the result of God's Grace on humanity.

Quote: I am a sinner... I sin and think about my sin and try to stop them and ask god for forgivness... a beggar can buy a house if he tried and i dont need to come up with stories but we all know that is not impossible

No...a begger would no longer really be a begger if he could afford a house. You admit that you can not stop sinning. So until you can cease to be a sinner...you can NOT redeem yourself...and you will go to Hell if you die without accepting Christ. I hate to say it like that, but it's the honest truth. I would much rather see you turn for the better and accept the truth.

Quote:
I stopped committing certain sins yes...and sometimes I ask god for forgivness and then I commit another sin and then I think about it and try to stop doing it and ask god to forgive me...

you are expected to sin ..but you are also told and taught that if you commit a sin then you should stop committing it and ask God for forgivness... not say that you are waiting for God to redeem you and not doing anything to fix the problem yourself...

The truth is that by admitting that you're not able to redeem yourself and accepting Christ as your Savior...the Holy Spirit will come into your life and guide you in your life to where God wants you to be. Through this relationship with God...a change will happen in you...and before you know it...the things that you couldn't do on your own will start to come natural to you. The Holy Spirit teaches us how to really love....that really what it's all about.

Quote: you can't stop sinning because this life is full of temptations that man may not be able to neglect ... temptations that can lead a man to sin... like the example I gave you about sex... the desire to reproduce is an instinct in all of us ... IT IS NOT A SIN... the sin is the action that one might commit in order to fullfil this instinct... clear?

Why is it a temptation? Think about it. The only reason why it temps us is because it's in our nature to want to do those things. If it wasn't in our nature...then sin wouldn't be a temptation at all.

Quote: and about the original sin... lemme ask you this... if your father once stole, should you be persecuted and punished for his crime? I know that the US law can not be more just and fair than God... if God wouldn't judge you for the sins of your direct father...why would he judge you for the sin of your very first great grandfather?

I don't think you're getting it. We're not held accountable for anyone's sin but our own. Original sin is just the fact that the first two human beings (our father and mother in a sense) passed on the nature to sin. That drive in us that finds pleasure in sinning.

Let's say that someone is getting on your nerves and causes you to lose your temper and sin in some way. Now the person didn't make you sin. The nature to sin was already inside of you. The person just caused the right circumstance to bring this side of you to the surface.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16432 Location: On Earth

John,

Quote: Let's say that someone is getting on your nerves and causes you to lose your temper and sin in some way. Now the person didn't make you sin. The nature to sin was already inside of you. The person just caused the right circumstance to bring this side of you to the surface.

Well, to every person is a dark side. A human being is himself a pole of good and evil. That's called free will. What caused him to sin was temptation and anger, and these are stirred up by evil influences. Glorfindel and pharaoh can talk to you more about this issue. But I can tell you that evil is rooted in human nature, but not original sin. I see where you're getting at, but a human being is pure, and gets these temptations out of him.

Quote: BTW...of course sex with my wife isn't a sin....but even thinking about having sex with someone who isn't my wife is a sin. It's a sin that was commited in my heart.

The sin was committed by your heart, yes. But it wasn't because sin was there already. Sin is something committed. The human mind is very complex, and the forebrain, not the heart, is what brings about temptation:
http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-1-d.htm
However, in Islam, if you think about committing a sin, it is a sin. But if you abstain from actually doing it and stop thinking about it (look at God's Mercy), that sin is overcome by good deeds (hasanat) and is effaced.

Keep this debate rolling. I'm actually enjoying this. :-D

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24245

Moath wrote: John wrote: pharaoh wrote: John wrote: Quote: If Jesus already sacrificed himself for us then why can Christians, who naturaly believe in Christ the savior, go to hell??

They can't. If you're born again...you will not go to Hell.

Ok so Hitler now is in heaven??

Dont try to diss him as being non Christian, you will lose this debate.

Hitler wasn't a born again Christian. His works prove that.

Calling yourself a Christian and going to church and all that jazz doesn't mean you're a born again Christian....and if you're not born again...you're not going to Heaven. That's the difference between Christianity and Islam. Christianity it based off of a REAL change that literally happens to the person thru being born again.

Hitler was a Catholic. His heinous crimes have nothing to do with Catholicism. AQ follow suit. Their terrorist acts have nothing to do with Islam and its true beliefs.

As for this "born again" thing, who needs to be born again? I'm Muslim and I discover more of my religion every single day. Islam is based on life and reality as well. There's a lot of scientific truth in the Koran and there's a lot to be said about the Hadith as well.

Hitler was deeply involved in the Occult.

Interesting little article.
http://www.abc.net.au/tasmania/stories/s1239979.htm

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24245

Quote: Well, to every person is a dark side. A human being is himself a pole of good and evil. That's called free will. What caused him to sin was temptation and anger, and these are stirred up by evil influences. Glorfindel and pharaoh can talk to you more about this issue. But I can tell you that evil is rooted in human nature, but not original sin. I see where you're getting at, but a human being is pure, and gets these temptations out of him.

Evil being rooted in human nature is the whole point of the concept of original sin.

Can't you see...that the only way something can be a temptation....is if there is a desire inside of you? I can't temp you with green beans if you hate green beans. I prolly couldn't temp you with a big bowl of crap to eat. It wouldn't be tempting at all.

Sin is the same way. In God's eyes...we're eating the bowl of crap...and liking it. That what sin is really like. We just don't see it that way because we have a corrupted nature. A nature that has to be completely changed in order to go to Heaven.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24245

Quote: The sin was committed by your heart, yes. But it wasn't because sin was there already.

This is what Jesus said.

Matthew 5
27 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY';

28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16432 Location: On Earth

I'll get back to you later. I'm a bit busy now.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16432 Location: On Earth

John wrote: Evil being rooted in human nature is the whole point of the concept of original sin.

So, temptation, then, is original sin?
I'm sorry, but I lost track. We're talking about children, John. First, they are born into this world innocent and pure. Thus, they started out without any "original sin". At smaller ages, their minds are not fully mature to grasp the concept of temptation. When they approach puberty, their minds begin to get a grip on what temptation is. Good and Evil are part of human nature. I'd just like to restate a point:

Quote: The sin was committed by your heart, yes. But it wasn't because sin was there already. Sin is something committed. The human mind is very complex, and the forebrain, not the heart, is what brings about temptation:
http://www.islam-guide.com/frm-ch1-1-d.htm

It is the forebrain that brings about temptation. The heart is blind, is it not?

Quote: Can't you see...that the only way something can be a temptation....is if there is a desire inside of you? I can't temp you with green beans if you hate green beans. I prolly couldn't temp you with a big bowl of crap to eat. It wouldn't be tempting at all.

That's called personality. Human beings differ in their personalities. It's what makes us humans so diverse. Temptative power, it seems, differs between individuals, depending on the piety of that person as well as his/her state of mind.

Quote: Sin is the same way. In God's eyes...we're eating the bowl of crap...and liking it. That what sin is really like. We just don't see it that way because we have a corrupted nature. A nature that has to be completely changed in order to go to Heaven.

Ah, but if you get to know temptation, you can resist it, correct? I see where you're getting at. True, we are swayful creatures in the Eyes of God, but we can adapt to it and resist it. Not all people, however, know that they commit sin. For example, it is forbidden to drink alcohol in Islam. A Muslim who knows this and drinks, say, a shot of rum knows that he is eating from that "bowl of crap". But, say, someone from some other religion that does not ban alcohol drinks that same shot of rum, he won't get such a feeling.

Quote: Matthew 5
27 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY';

28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

Interesting. :think:
Here are some verses from the Koran concerning adultery.
Quote: (24:3) Let no man guilty of adultery or fornication marry and but a woman similarly guilty, or an Unbeliever: nor let any but such a man or an Unbeliever marry such a woman: to the Believers such a thing is forbidden.

Quote: (17:32) Nor come nigh to adultery: for it is a shameful (deed) and an evil, opening the road (to other evils).

We, too, have the same belief: looking at pictures of women lustfully is considered adultery.

pharaoh · Posted: Fri Jan 27, 2006 3:00 pm Post subject:

John,

Quote: He does. We see it in the record of when King David was griving over his infant son who died.

2 Samuel 12
22 He said, "While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, 'Who knows, the LORD may be gracious to me, that the child may live.'

23"But now he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."

And let's not forget.

Deuteronomy 1

39 'Moreover, your little ones who you said would become a prey, and your sons, who this day have no knowledge of good or evil, shall enter there, and I will give it to them and they shall possess it.

Water baptism doesn't save your soul...it's a public recognition of an inwardly change that's happened. It represents the future event of the resurrection where the born again will receive a body without the sin nature. It’s a public statement of Faith.

Ok first of all the 2 passages that you showed are vague and unclear about the fate of unbaptized children. The proof is that the church didnt find any text in the bible that explains what sort of fate do unbaptized children meet in the after life that it invented the "limbo" and in some other times it just said it bluntly that unbaptized children go to hell:

The "Limbo of children" (a.k.a. Limbo, Linbus Infantium, Puerorum) is believed by many Roman Catholics to be a state where unbaptized children and adults who die without committing grievous actual sin, enjoy perfect natural happiness.They are excluded from Heaven. Although belief in Limbo is common, the Roman Catholic church has never formally proclaimed its existence. Some Church leaders have commented on the fate of unbaptized infants:

4th century CE: St. Gregory of Nazianzus (circa 329 - circa 390) commented in Orat., XL, 23 that infants dying without baptism "will neither be admitted by the just judge to the glory of Heaven nor condemned to suffer punishment, since, though unsealed [by baptism], they are not wicked." This was the common view of the early Church Fathers.

5th century CE: St. Augustine of Hippo (354 - 430) convinced the Council of Carthage (418 CE) to reject the concept of limbo "of any place...in which children who pass out of this life unbaptized live in happiness." According to the Catholic Encyclopedia: "St. Augustine and the African Fathers believed that unbaptized infants share in the common positive misery of the damned , and the very most that St. Augustine concedes is that their punishment is the mildest of all." i.e. they go to Hell for eternal punishment, but are not as badly treated as other inmates. According to Revelation 14:10, the infants would be tortured in the presence of Jesus.
11th century: St. Anselm (1033 - 1109 CE) supported St. Augustine's belief that "unbaptized children share in the positive sufferings of the damned [in Hell]."1
12th century: Peter Abelard (1079 - 1142) deviated from St. Augustine by rejecting material torment (poena sensus) and retained only the pain of loss (poena damni) as the eternal punishment of unbaptized infants for their original sin.
13th century: St Thomas Aquinas (1226-1274), who was the first major theologian to speculate about the existence of a place called limbo, whose name is derived from the Latin limbus which means "hem" or "edge". There, on the edge of heaven, the unbaptised would exist in a state of what he described as "natural happiness".
15th century: Later writers, {e.g. Griolamo Savonarola (1452 - 1498) and Ambrose Catharinus (16th century)} believed that "the souls of unbaptized children will be united to glorious bodies at the Resurrection." 1
16th century: Cardinal Cajetan speculated that unbaptized newborns, fetuses, etc people may benefit from a "vicarious baptism of desire." i.e. even though an actual baptism may not have occurred, it might have been desired by the parents, or the church or by someone else. A "desired baptism" which had never actually been conducted might have the same power as a real sacrament.
18th century: A group known as the Jansenists reverted to St. Augustine's belief. They rejected the idea of Limbo in favor of eternal torture of unbaptized infants, etc. In response, Pope Pius VI wrote Auctorem Fidei (1794), which condemned their teaching as being "false, rash, and injurious to Catholic education" because they denied the existence of a place "which the faithful generally designate by the name of limbo for children."
19th century: Theologian Heinrich Klee speculated that God might enlighten the infant at the instant of death and enable them to make a decision for or against God.

1905: Pope Pius X made a definitive declaration confirming the existence of Limbo. However, this was not an infallible statement by the pope:

"Children who die without baptism go into limbo, where they do not enjoy God, but they do not suffer either, because having Original Sin, and only that, they do not deserve paradise, but neither hell or purgatory."

1958: The Holy Office (once the Inquisition and now the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) was critical of some believers who delayed baptism because of their belief in Limbo. They concluded: "Therefore this Supreme Congregation, with the approval of the Holy Father, warns the faithful that infants are to be baptized as soon as possible..." (Acta L, 114).
1960s: The Second Vatican Council stated, in Gaudium et Spes 22: "For since Christ died for all (Rom. 8:32)...we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partners, in a way known to God, in the paschal mystery."
1984: Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, then head of the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, stated his personal disbelief concerning Limbo during an interview in . He said that:
"Limbo has never been a defined truth of faith. Personally, speaking as a theologian and not as head of the Congregation, I would drop something that has always been only a theological hypothesis."

He has since become Pope Benedict XVI in 2005.

1995: In his encyclical Evangelium Vitae ("The Gospel of LIfe") Pope John Paul II discussed women who have had abortions. He gave an ambiguous statement implying that aborted embryos and fetuses may be in Heaven or Limbo. He wrote: "...You will also be able to ask forgiveness from your child, who is now living in the Lord."
1999: Fr. L.E. Latorre comments:

"Children should be baptized within the first weeks after birth. Children in danger of death should be baptized without delay. Catholic parents who neglect or unreasonably put off for a long time the Baptism of their children commit a mortal sin. It would be a mortal sin, for example, to delay or postpone indefinitely the Baptism of a child in order to save-up or prepare for a big feast, a great worldly show, with dances and dinners and what not. Or, to delay the Baptism in order to wait for the coming of a VIP godparent." 2

Circa 2004: In an article on 2005-NOV-30, the Scotsman newspaper states that Pope John Paul II had written:

"The Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God. In fact the great mercy of God, who wants all men to be saved, and the tenderness of Jesus towards children allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who die without baptism." 3 {We have not been able to find a citation for this quotation.}

http://www.religioustolerance.org/limbo2.htm

So when you tell me that "Water baptism doesn't save your soul" you are wrong.

In some Roman Catholic circles, limbo describes the temporary status of the souls of good persons who died before the resurrection of Jesus, and the permanent status of the unbaptised who die in infancy (without having committed any personal sins, but without having been freed from original sin).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo

Its not just a cermoney like you and Cap'n say. It is a major and fundamental action if a Christian wants to go to heaven.

Now if we also read this next paragraph:

The foundational importance of the sacrament of baptism (either the ritual baptism by water or the personal baptism by desire) or baptism by blood in Roman Catholic theology gives rise to the argument that the unbaptized are not eligible for entry into heaven, because the original sin of human nature precludes the unbaptized from the pure beatific vision enjoyed by the souls in paradise.

Now it is also VERY clear from the above 2 paragraphs that you Christians indeed think that every human being is born with the original sin. So obviously it is not as you said that we are not held accountable of Adam and EVE's original sin. Which is very illogical and unfair, im sure you agree with me on that.
On the other hand, in Islam we are all born "white", we are all born free of any sin, according to Islam, God doesnt hold us accountable of the original sin and he more importantly doesnt pass a sin made by Adam and Eve to all mankind. This is logical and this is fair and this is the greatness of Islam.

Quote: Hitler wasn't a born again Christian. His works prove that.

Calling yourself a Christian and going to church and all that jazz doesn't mean you're a born again Christian....and if you're not born again...you're not going to Heaven. That's the difference between Christianity and Islam. Christianity it based off of a REAL change that literally happens to the person thru being born again.

With all of his evil deeds Hitler could easily go to heaven!
Here read this:

Going to Heaven according to Roman Catholicism:

If one were baptized validly and then died, one would go directly to heaven (in the Roman Catholic belief, the sacrament of baptism dissolves the eternal and temporal punishment of all sins). If one never committed a mortal sin and were absolved of all his venial sins just before death, one would go directly to Heaven.

Going to Heaven according to Protestant Christianity:

In the Protestant tradition, entry into Heaven depends upon the Christian placing their faith in Jesus. Protestant theology holds strongly that when Jesus died on the cross, he took upon himself the punishment for the world's sins. Therefore, any person who has faith in Christ and asks for his forgiveness will automatically be granted forgiveness for their sins and has the promise of going to Heaven.

THERE IS NO GOOD DEEDS CONSIDERED AT ALL. If a Christian want to go to heaven all what he has to do is to be baptized if he was a catholic or to just place his faith in Jesus as his savior if he was Protestant

John, this is why Christianity failed. Cant you see that it failed, look around you, look at your own country, filled with sexual immorality, infidelity, high crime rate, behavior immorality...etc..
Im not saying that to anger you but its just the truth. This is why all Europe and the US are secular countries because religion was at a certain point in history considered as a bad thing and not a positive one. That is why now most Europeans and Americans are atheists, people arent convinced by Christianity, everybody sees that it has so many fundamental flaws even in its basic believes.

C'mon, all the signs are out there, you need to just start to think about your believes with more rationalism and less rigid belief.

Showboat · Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 9:25 pm Post subject:

I've been doing a little reading, only a little mind, on Jesus in Islam.

It seems the Koran says Jesus was the son of Allah/God and Mary was a virgin:

Quote: "She said: My Lord! How can I have a child when no mortal hath touched me? He said: So. Allah createth what He will. If He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is." (3:47)

Does all Isalmic belief in Jesus come from the Koran or were other sources used?

Also apparently according to the Koran Jews and Christians will be in Heaven with God as long as we beleive in God and are righteous:

Quote: Those who believe, and those who follow the Jewish, and the Christians, and the Sabians, any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.(2:62)

So I'm best off being Catholic and "playing the odds". 8:)

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24245

Quote: Ah, but if you get to know temptation, you can resist it, correct?

I guess I could go tit for tat on all of you're responses; but what it all really boils down to is a misunderstanding of how far sin really runs. It's the heart..no...it's not blind...the Bible tells us.

Jeremiah 17
9 "The heart is more deceitful than all else
And is desperately sick;
Who can understand it?

There is more to it than just resisting punching someone’s face in when they piss you off...just the fact that the feelings rose up inside of you in sin. It's NOT something you can fix with religion. And that's why Jesus is necessary.

Jesus said;

Matthew 23
27 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness.

28 "So you, too, outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

Glorfindel · Joined: 06 Oct 2004 Posts: 485 Location: AlRiyadh

Showboat wrote: I've been doing a little reading, only a little mind, on Jesus in Islam.

It seems the Koran says Jesus was the son of Allah/God and Mary was a virgin:

Quote: "She said: My Lord! How can I have a child when no mortal hath touched me? He said: So. Allah createth what He will. If He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is." (3:47)

Does all Isalmic belief in Jesus come from the Koran or were other sources used?

Also apparently according to the Koran Jews and Christians will be in Heaven with God as long as we beleive in God and are righteous:

Quote: Those who believe, and those who follow the Jewish, and the Christians, and the Sabians, any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.(2:62)

So I'm best off being Catholic and "playing the odds". 8:)

first, I dont see how we got to the conclusion that the Koran says that Jesus is the son of god from that verse...

I mean God created me... that does not mean that God is my father

second thing... jews who followed the teachings of Moses before Jesus was sent to be a prophet will , with God's willing, enter heaven

but after Jesus was sent, those jews who didnt believe him and tried to kill him will not.. because they did not follow the teachings of Jesus

and those who followed his teaching will , if god wills it, enter heaven

now after the emergence of Islam all jews and christians should follow Islam in order to enter heaven... those who died without believing in the Prophet Mohammed will not

and in Islam a part believing in one God is to believe that God has no son , a God that was not born and does not reproduce...

as far as I know, all christians nowadays believe that Jesus is God's son..
I dont know if there are still christians who believe in the Gospel of Barnabus?

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24245

Quote: and in Islam a part believing in one God is to believe that God has no son , a God that was not born and does not reproduce...

Jesus is God incarnate....the incarnation is understood in human perception as the "Son". But there was never a time that Jesus hasn't existed...He isn't "God reproducing"...that's a child's (or Mormon's :wink: )understanding of who Jesus is.

God incarnated Himself so that He would literally become our Salvation. If you reject this truth...you will not go to Heaven.

Showboat · Posted: Sat Jan 28, 2006 10:12 pm Post subject:

Quote: first, I dont see how we got to the conclusion that the Koran says that Jesus is the son of god from that verse

Easy the Madonna says oh s**t I'm up the duff how can this be???? I've never even had it off!!! And Allah/God's like "Don't worry love, it was me I made you pregnant" Now you don't need a PHD in biology to know whoever makes a bird pregnant is the dad.

The koranic verses 45:27-28:

Quote: And Allah's is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth; and on the day when the hour shall come to pass, on that day shall they perish who say false things.
And you shall see every nation kneeling down; every nation shall be called to its book: today you shall be rewarded for what you did.

This clearly talks about The Last Day when we will be judged and each nation will be judged on it's own book. So I'll be judged on the NT as that is my book. This Last Day is obviously after your prophet but still every nation called to it's book.