Political Crossfire Forums

JCool333 · Joined: 08 Dec 2005 Posts: 390

As I'm sure you all know, many bible characters are mentioned in Muslim texts. I really would like to learn a bit more about your beliefs on blble characters...anything would help...

Zeeman · Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 2:00 pm Post subject:

I would say that everything in the Quran is in the bible.However there are differences in some of the stories,and just like you know inconsistencies in the Bible at times.Also there are details in the Bible and OT that Muslims dont agree with..

I THINK only the story of the people of the cave isnt in the NT but I am sure it is either in the OT or other Jewish texts.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16062 Location: On Earth

JCool. Good to see ya. :-D

I know what you mean about the Bible Characters. You are mentioning the Prophets, Messengers and their companians. As a matter of fact, yes, you are correct. There are more Bible characters mentioned in the Hadith as well. Here's a short list of the people mentioned in the Koran:

1. Adam and Eve
2. Enoch (Idris)
3. Noah (Nuh)
4. Ibrahim (Abraham)
5. Ishmael (Isma'il)
6. Isaac (Is-haq)
7. Lot (Lute)
8. Heber (Hud)
9. Shelah (Saleh)
10. Jethro (Shuaib)
11. Elias/Elijah (Ilias)
12. Elisha (Al Yasa')
13. Ezekiel? (Dhul Kafl, or Hizqeel)
14. Job (Ayyub)
15. Jonah (Yunus)
16. Jacob (Yaqub, also called Isra'il)
17. Joseph (Yusuf)
18. Moses (Musa)
19. Aaron (Harun)
20. Zachariah (Zakariyya)
21. John (Yahya)
22. Jesus (Issa)
23. Muhammad
24. David (Dawud)
25. Solomon (Sulayman)
(Peace be upon them all)
Prophets are not mentioned in chronological order.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophets_of_Islam#Zulkifl_.28possibly_Ezekiel.29_.D8.B0.D9.88_.D8.A7.D9.84.D9.83.D9.81.D9.84

You can also visit:
http://www.ummah.net/forum/showthread.php?t=49794
for more info...

It is actually mentioned that the Koran has more Bibilical characters such as Joshua, Jeremiah and Alexander the Great (who you probably look upon as a sort of benefactor, but we call him Dhul Qarnain, or the two-horned one). Moreover, there are supposedly 125,000 prophets and messengers sent by God, but only 25 are mentioned in the Koran. If you have any further questions... we're here for ya. :-D

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16062 Location: On Earth

Oh, and one more thing: the stories of the characters in the Koran differ either slightly or greatly from the stories of the same characters mentioned in the OT and NT. In fact, many of the stories in the Koran are not as exaggerated as the stories of the NT and OT, so to speak. I'll give you a link to the stories of the characters in the Koran, but it's going to take some time for me to find you a good one.

Glorfindel · Joined: 06 Oct 2004 Posts: 485 Location: AlRiyadh

JCool333 wrote: As I'm sure you all know, many bible characters are mentioned in Muslim texts. I really would like to learn a bit more about your beliefs on blble characters...anything would help...

we muslims believe that the sin of Adam and Eve is not inherited by their offspring... humans are not held accountabe for something their first ancestors had done..you are only responsible for what you do or say or believe... no sin of your father shall you inherit...

Ishmael is the first son of Abraham...Isaac is the second... and Ishmael is the one Abraham was going to sacrifice..not Isaac...

the proof to that is in the bible ..here are two verses of the bible

Abraham was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore him Ishmael. (Genesis, 16:16)

Abraham was a hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him. (Genesis, 21:5)

and then the story of the sacrifice in the bibles starts off with

Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, ‘Abraham!’ ‘Here I am,’ he replied. Then God said, ‘Take your son, your only son
(Genesis 22:1-18)

so we know that Abraham was younger when Ishmael was born than he was when Isaac was born... that means that Ishmael was the first and older son and for a while ..Ishmael was the only son of Abraham...that's why Ishmael is the one to be sacrificed

Isaac could have never been the only son because he had a brother older than him...

after these verses from the bible, logic should be sufficient to prove that Ishmael is the one who was to be sacrificed by Abraham and not Isaac

Lut never committed incest with his daughters, Jacob never wrestled with an angel nor God (it is written that Jacob almost won until God reveal his true identity to him), Moses did not tell the jews to steal gold and jewels from the Egyptians before fleeing as a sort of compinsation for their enslavement, Solomon did not worshipped anything besides God, David did not covet the wife of his army general and then send him to be killed in war while he committed adultry with the wife

Noah never drank alcohol and got drunk and then seen naked by one of his sons, Aaron did not tell the Jews to worship an idol when they were in the desert

that's all I could tell you for now... hope I helped

Showboat · Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 10:38 pm Post subject:

Quote: Lut never committed incest with his daughters, Jacob never wrestled with an angel nor God (it is written that Jacob almost won until God reveal his true identity to him), Moses did not tell the jews to steal gold and jewels from the Egyptians before fleeing as a sort of compinsation for their enslavement, Solomon did not worshipped anything besides God, David did not covet the wife of his army general and then send him to be killed in war while he committed adultry with the wife

Noah never drank alcohol and got drunk and then seen naked by one of his sons, Aaron did not tell the Jews to worship an idol when they were in the desert

That's a pity, your missing all the fun bits. :lol:

Out of interest did Jacobs sons tell that city to all get curcumsized so the prince could marry their sister and then when they did go in a kill all the men while they were sill in pain and steal all the women children and animals? Thats another fun bit to read in the OT.

Here's the story in lego. Fantastic. http://www.thebricktestament.com/genesis/rape_treachery_and_slaughter/gn34_01.html

Glorfindel · Joined: 06 Oct 2004 Posts: 485 Location: AlRiyadh

Showboat wrote: Quote: Lut never committed incest with his daughters, Jacob never wrestled with an angel nor God (it is written that Jacob almost won until God reveal his true identity to him), Moses did not tell the jews to steal gold and jewels from the Egyptians before fleeing as a sort of compinsation for their enslavement, Solomon did not worshipped anything besides God, David did not covet the wife of his army general and then send him to be killed in war while he committed adultry with the wife

Noah never drank alcohol and got drunk and then seen naked by one of his sons, Aaron did not tell the Jews to worship an idol when they were in the desert

That's a pity, your missing all the fun bits. :lol:

Out of interest did Jacobs sons tell that city to all get curcumsized so the prince could marry their sister and then when they did go in a kill all the men while they were sill in pain and steal all the women children and animals? Thats another fun bit to read in the OT.

Here's the story in lego. Fantastic. http://www.thebricktestament.com/genesis/rape_treachery_and_slaughter/gn34_01.html

the sons of Jacob had the sin of envy...they envied their father's love of Joesph

nothing was mentioned of that scheme.. and I think it is a fictional story of one of those who distorted the OT

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16062 Location: On Earth

Showboat wrote: Quote: Lut never committed incest with his daughters, Jacob never wrestled with an angel nor God (it is written that Jacob almost won until God reveal his true identity to him), Moses did not tell the jews to steal gold and jewels from the Egyptians before fleeing as a sort of compinsation for their enslavement, Solomon did not worshipped anything besides God, David did not covet the wife of his army general and then send him to be killed in war while he committed adultry with the wife

Noah never drank alcohol and got drunk and then seen naked by one of his sons, Aaron did not tell the Jews to worship an idol when they were in the desert

That's a pity, your missing all the fun bits. :lol:

Out of interest did Jacobs sons tell that city to all get curcumsized so the prince could marry their sister and then when they did go in a kill all the men while they were sill in pain and steal all the women children and animals? Thats another fun bit to read in the OT.

Here's the story in lego. Fantastic. http://www.thebricktestament.com/genesis/rape_treachery_and_slaughter/gn34_01.html

Well, the Prophets and Messengers were all pure. None of them had the attributes of mischief, falsehood, or sin. About Jacob's tidbit, there is no mention of such a "ridiculous" event. I'll take a look at the story when I have the time.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 23743

Glorfindel wrote: JCool333 wrote: As I'm sure you all know, many bible characters are mentioned in Muslim texts. I really would like to learn a bit more about your beliefs on blble characters...anything would help...

we muslims believe that the sin of Adam and Eve is not inherited by their offspring... humans are not held accountabe for something their first ancestors had done..you are only responsible for what you do or say or believe... no sin of your father shall you inherit...

Ishmael is the first son of Abraham...Isaac is the second... and Ishmael is the one Abraham was going to sacrifice..not Isaac...

the proof to that is in the bible ..here are two verses of the bible

Abraham was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore him Ishmael. (Genesis, 16:16)

Abraham was a hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him. (Genesis, 21:5)

and then the story of the sacrifice in the bibles starts off with

Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, ‘Abraham!’ ‘Here I am,’ he replied. Then God said, ‘Take your son, your only son
(Genesis 22:1-18)

so we know that Abraham was younger when Ishmael was born than he was when Isaac was born... that means that Ishmael was the first and older son and for a while ..Ishmael was the only son of Abraham...that's why Ishmael is the one to be sacrificed

Isaac could have never been the only son because he had a brother older than him...

after these verses from the bible, logic should be sufficient to prove that Ishmael is the one who was to be sacrificed by Abraham and not Isaac

Lut never committed incest with his daughters, Jacob never wrestled with an angel nor God (it is written that Jacob almost won until God reveal his true identity to him), Moses did not tell the jews to steal gold and jewels from the Egyptians before fleeing as a sort of compinsation for their enslavement, Solomon did not worshipped anything besides God, David did not covet the wife of his army general and then send him to be killed in war while he committed adultry with the wife

Noah never drank alcohol and got drunk and then seen naked by one of his sons, Aaron did not tell the Jews to worship an idol when they were in the desert

that's all I could tell you for now... hope I helped

Why would the Jews "made up" the less than flattering parts?

BTW...it isn't written that Jacob almost won. Just that he refused to let go. He limped away from the event, crippled for the rest of his life.

Oh...and it isn't cool to edit and leave out parts from the Bible...if you're gonna quote it. Be honest.

Genesis 22

2 He said, "Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you."

Isaac is specifically mentioned.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16062 Location: On Earth

Well, Ishmael is mentioned in the Koran, as is Isaac. We look upon the Prophets and Messengers equally because they all delivered the same message, and that is the Revelation of God to Mankind. All of this is found in the Koran and the Testaments.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 23743

Quote: we muslims believe that the sin of Adam and Eve is not inherited by their offspring... humans are not held accountabe for something their first ancestors had done..you are only responsible for what you do or say or believe... no sin of your father shall you inherit...

We inherited the sin nature. You're not a sinner because you sin...you sin BECAUSE you're a sinner. It's your nature.

If it's what you do that condemns you, then the answer is as simple as stop doing it; but if on the other hand, you are condemned because of what you are, then you must become something else.

Glorfindel · Joined: 06 Oct 2004 Posts: 485 Location: AlRiyadh

John wrote: Glorfindel wrote: JCool333 wrote: As I'm sure you all know, many bible characters are mentioned in Muslim texts. I really would like to learn a bit more about your beliefs on blble characters...anything would help...

we muslims believe that the sin of Adam and Eve is not inherited by their offspring... humans are not held accountabe for something their first ancestors had done..you are only responsible for what you do or say or believe... no sin of your father shall you inherit...

Ishmael is the first son of Abraham...Isaac is the second... and Ishmael is the one Abraham was going to sacrifice..not Isaac...

the proof to that is in the bible ..here are two verses of the bible

Abraham was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore him Ishmael. (Genesis, 16:16)

Abraham was a hundred years old when his son Isaac was born to him. (Genesis, 21:5)

and then the story of the sacrifice in the bibles starts off with

Some time later God tested Abraham. He said to him, ‘Abraham!’ ‘Here I am,’ he replied. Then God said, ‘Take your son, your only son
(Genesis 22:1-18)

so we know that Abraham was younger when Ishmael was born than he was when Isaac was born... that means that Ishmael was the first and older son and for a while ..Ishmael was the only son of Abraham...that's why Ishmael is the one to be sacrificed

Isaac could have never been the only son because he had a brother older than him...

after these verses from the bible, logic should be sufficient to prove that Ishmael is the one who was to be sacrificed by Abraham and not Isaac

Lut never committed incest with his daughters, Jacob never wrestled with an angel nor God (it is written that Jacob almost won until God reveal his true identity to him), Moses did not tell the jews to steal gold and jewels from the Egyptians before fleeing as a sort of compinsation for their enslavement, Solomon did not worshipped anything besides God, David did not covet the wife of his army general and then send him to be killed in war while he committed adultry with the wife

Noah never drank alcohol and got drunk and then seen naked by one of his sons, Aaron did not tell the Jews to worship an idol when they were in the desert

that's all I could tell you for now... hope I helped

Why would the Jews "made up" the less than flattering parts?

BTW...it isn't written that Jacob almost won. Just that he refused to let go. He limped away from the event, crippled for the rest of his life.

Oh...and it isn't cool to edit and leave out parts from the Bible...if you're gonna quote it. Be honest.

Genesis 22

2 He said, "Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you."

Isaac is specifically mentioned.

first of all... as written in the OT Jacob did not let go until "god" revealed himself to Jacob... so what made God as the OT claims reveal his identity? Jacob almost defeating him?

you are right Jacob was hurt and became lame...

but here is what troubles me... why did you expect me to be lying?

FYI, I just forgot to mention the whole story... I really apologize...but you should always expect well of people.. not suspect them to be wicked

anyway...the whole point of my post is to show JJCool what Islam disagrees on with Judaism or christianity>>>not mention the full story of it as written in the OT... he is supposed to know that..

about Isaac and Ishmael story, now you literally believe in Isaac to be the sacrificed one because he was mentioned... yet the part where it says "your only son" makes never mind to you?

the bible already ackowledges and declare that Ishmael is the ondler one ... he was the only son of Abraham until Isaac was born...

what significance does the word "only" bear if Abraham had two sons when God asked him to sacrifice his son?

here you have only two options...

1- either you admit that the bible in its original version meant Ishmael ..but it fell victim in the cursed hands of those who played with the true word of God and the name of Isaac was added to that verse

2- or you could admit to the bible's inconsistancies and that Isaac is the older son of Abraham... which means that that verse in Genesis is wrong... and God can not be wrong which also leads you to the believe that the bible was distorted and corrupted

either way... the choice is yours

Glorfindel · Joined: 06 Oct 2004 Posts: 485 Location: AlRiyadh

John wrote: Quote: we muslims believe that the sin of Adam and Eve is not inherited by their offspring... humans are not held accountabe for something their first ancestors had done..you are only responsible for what you do or say or believe... no sin of your father shall you inherit...

We inherited the sin nature. You're not a sinner because you sin...you sin BECAUSE you're a sinner. It's your nature.

If it's what you do that condemns you, then the answer is as simple as stop doing it; but if on the other hand, you are condemned because of what you are, then you must become something else.

we did not inherit the sin nature... if what you say is right then we as human have nothing to do to redeem ourselves...

I mean why would God judge us on the nature and instincts he put in us? that does not seem fair

so a baby is a sinner even if he has not done anything yet?

what happened to a man's judgement? what happened to a man's freedom to choose?

why would we be punished if we are created and born to sin ? even the screwed up judicial system of the US is fairer than this... at least they would not punish you for a crime you have not committed yet...well theoretically

doesnt it seem more logical that you will not be charged for anything you have not done?

stopping to do what condemns you ...thats the definition of redemption...that is fairness...it is that simple
add to that admitting your sin and asking God for forgivness and God will forgive you...that's generousity

how can you change what you are? if you are created to be a sinner then you cant change the way you are created...only that who created you can

you can though what what you do...

JCool333 · Joined: 08 Dec 2005 Posts: 390

Thanks for everything guys. If anyone can find a site with all of the parts of the Koran which mention these characters, then that would be great. Its interesting to see the differences between the religions.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16062 Location: On Earth

JCool333 wrote: Thanks for everything guys. If anyone can find a site with all of the parts of the Koran which mention these characters, then that would be great. Its interesting to see the differences between the religions.

I don't know much sites, but you can start here:
http://www.al-quran.org.uk/
I'll do my best in getting you a link as soon as I find one. :-D

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 23743

Quote: we did not inherit the sin nature... if what you say is right then we as human have nothing to do to redeem ourselves...

Bingo! The Lord has EVERYTHING to do with redemption.

If we as humans do not have a sin nature...then WHY do we sin? It wouldn't be an issue if it wasn't part of our nature. Yet everyone I've ever met has been a sinner.

Don't kid yourself.......it's part of our very nature to sin.

That's why Islam is false. Because it's a system of what people need to do to redeem themselves. It fails because redemption was never something we could do for ourselves. It's a form of vanity and pride.

Redemption begins with accepting that you're BANKRUMPT, that you can't redeem yourself and that you NEED a redeemer.

Quote: I mean why would God judge us on the nature and instincts he put in us? that does not seem fair

We are the result of the mistake that the first humans made. We are thier fruit. Does a bad tree produce good fruit? No.

God doesn't judge because of our nature...but in the choice that we made about accepting the facts about our nature. He can work with you if you accept Him as the Redeemer.

Quote: doesnt it seem more logical that you will not be charged for anything you have not done?

Are you claiming that you don't sin? How can a sinner redeem himself? It's like expecting a begger to buy a house.

Quote: stopping to do what condemns you ...thats the definition of redemption...that is fairness...it is that simple
add to that admitting your sin and asking God for forgivness and God will forgive you...that's generousity

Have you stopped? Are you without sin? Do you ask God to forgive you and then just turn around and sin again? Why can't you just stop sinning all together?

Quote: how can you change what you are? if you are created to be a sinner then you cant change the way you are created...only that who created you can

You can't. But those whom accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior become "born again". The Holy Spirit of God brings their "spirit man" alive inside of them and it begins a change...kinda like a butterfly. This change is completed at the resurrection where the people who are born again receive a new body without the sin nature.

pharaoh · Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 4:29 pm Post subject:

Moath wrote: JCool333 wrote: Thanks for everything guys. If anyone can find a site with all of the parts of the Koran which mention these characters, then that would be great. Its interesting to see the differences between the religions.

I don't know much sites, but you can start here:
http://www.al-quran.org.uk/
I'll do my best in getting you a link as soon as I find one. :-D

Actualy this is a very good site. There is a word search engine in it. It will show you all the verses that mention the word that your searching for. Pretty effective.

pharaoh · Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 4:43 pm Post subject:

Oh John you got it all wrong.
God says we, human beings, are sinners. Even prophet Muhammed committed a sin, BUT the fundamental change between Islam and Christianity is that in Islam THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS THE ORIGINAL SIN.
In other words, we are not responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve. But in Christianity, you think that all people are born as Sinners, which means as if we ALREADY SINNED. That is 100% wrong. And if you really believe that then you really have a very weird point of view about God. But I understand that you have to believe in this cause that explain Jesus sacrifice. In my point of view, its just ALL wrong...think about it. If Jesus already sacrificed himself for us then why can Christians, who naturaly believe in Christ the savior, go to hell?? And the most important question: What in the hell is the purpose of our life?! In the Christian perspective I can see no purpose at all. This is why most Christians nowadays become disillusioned with their religion, cause all the fundamental concepts are illogical and doesnt make sense. Again John, my question is: Why didnt god tell us what is the fate of unbaptized children in the bible???? Just imagine for a moment that you had a child and for some unfortunate reason he/she died before baptism. Now imagine yourself, a religious and devoted Christian as you are, in a position where you dont know what will be your childs fate in the after life, even worse, most priests and the Church says he/she will go to hell. What do you think about that?
Plz address all of my questions...

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 23743

Quote: Oh John you got it all wrong.
God says we, human beings, are sinners. Even prophet Muhammed committed a sin, BUT the fundamental change between Islam and Christianity is that in Islam THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS THE ORIGINAL SIN.
In other words, we are not responsible for the sin of Adam and Eve.

Of course not. You're responsible for your own sin...but you're a sinner because of your nature, which you inherited from Adam and Eve.

This isn't hard stuff.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 23743

Quote: If Jesus already sacrificed himself for us then why can Christians, who naturaly believe in Christ the savior, go to hell??

They can't. If you're born again...you will not go to Hell.