Political Crossfire Forums

Gus · Joined: 17 Jun 2005 Posts: 7609 Location: Tampa, FL

"As our psychological and physiological knowledge of human actions and reactions increases, the range of human actions of which we can reasonably say 'an alternative action was possible' or 'he could have acted otherwise' necessarily diminishes."

Do you think this statement is valid? Do you think the sciences of the mind will eventually nullify the doctrine of free will completely, or are they futilely groping in the dark to explain mental liberty?

Zoot · Joined: 30 Oct 2005 Posts: 2194

There's no need to look for empirical evidence when the unintelligibility of free will is inherent to the very notion of choice.

Ek0nomik · Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 2065 Location: La Fleur

Zoot wrote: There's no need to look for empirical evidence when the unintelligibility of free will is inherent to the very notion of choice.

You speak in riddles.

It's a very interesting topic Gus. I believe there has to be some sort of free will, because from the very beginning, where does the psychological background come from in an individual. Obviously there are psycholoical reasons behind our choices. If someone has a bad experience with a vehicle, they may be more prone towards not using a vehicle again. However the probability of this individual never using a vehicle again isn't zero. They can reason their way throughout the situation to make a choice of their own.

Zoot · Joined: 30 Oct 2005 Posts: 2194

Quote: It's a very interesting topic Gus. I believe there has to be some sort of free will, because from the very beginning, where does the psychological background come from in an individual. Obviously there are psycholoical reasons behind our choices. If someone has a bad experience with a vehicle, they may be more prone towards not using a vehicle again. However the probability of this individual never using a vehicle again isn't zero. They can reason their way throughout the situation to make a choice of their own.

Why would they reason their way into choosing to drive a car?

Gus · Joined: 17 Jun 2005 Posts: 7609 Location: Tampa, FL

Ek0nomik wrote: Zoot wrote: There's no need to look for empirical evidence when the unintelligibility of free will is inherent to the very notion of choice.

You speak in riddles.
Well what he said really wasn't relevant anyway, he's talking within the scope of free will, which is too narrow.

Ek0nomik wrote: It's a very interesting topic Gus. I believe there has to be some sort of free will, because from the very beginning, where does the psychological background come from in an individual. Obviously there are psycholoical reasons behind our choices. If someone has a bad experience with a vehicle, they may be more prone towards not using a vehicle again. However the probability of this individual never using a vehicle again isn't zero. They can reason their way throughout the situation to make a choice of their own.
Well that is true of any empirical science--that only probabilities can be given for anything experimentally "discovered." But I don't think you're fully understanding the depth of the psychology implication. What I'm saying is that psychology may, as it progressively understands every function of the mind, be able to narrow down to near-100% accuracy the choices we will make (it cannot obviously attain a perfect 100% accuracy since it is empirical).

Anyway, I'm starting to think that this sort of problem is unknowable because we must use whichever method it is we use in order to even examine it. If we truly do have free will, we can't prove it without using it...and if we don't have free will, we can't prove that either without using determinism (or perhaps being used by it).

The first paragraph may also provide proof that this issue is unknowable since no method we can employ can ever disprove free will (or prove determinism). In order to deductively prove determinism, one would have to follow every single event that happened to every single object all the way back to the prime movement, and then see whether or not human volition is compliant with that chain of events that led to the choice. Obviously this is impossible for any human.

You think that is valid?

Zoot · Joined: 30 Oct 2005 Posts: 2194

Quote: Well what he said really wasn't relevant anyway, he's talking within the scope of free will, which is too narrow.

It's not relevant to point out that "free will" is a contradiction in terms, when the OP talks about "free will" as if the term means something?

Gus · Joined: 17 Jun 2005 Posts: 7609 Location: Tampa, FL

Zoot wrote: Quote: Well what he said really wasn't relevant anyway, he's talking within the scope of free will, which is too narrow.

It's not relevant to point out that "free will" is a contradiction in terms, when the OP talks about "free will" as if the term means something?
Of course it's a contradiction. :-|

Zoot · Joined: 30 Oct 2005 Posts: 2194

Then how is it meaningful to talk about it diminishing in the light of new discoveries when one need look no further than definitions to see that it's a contradictory non-concept?

One and Only... · Joined: 19 Jan 2006 Posts: 85 Location: Winchester, VA

Are free will and determinism incompatible to begin with?

Zoot · Joined: 30 Oct 2005 Posts: 2194

Quote: Are free will and determinism incompatible to begin with?

I don't know. Are square circles and trignometry incompatible?

NeedsREALfreedom · Joined: 04 Oct 2004 Posts: 1761 Location: MN, USA

Is there choice in the influences and signals we receive, or the way in which our brains interpreters it?

Our minds are driven by electro-chemical impulses, much like the calculations that occur in your computer. Yet all that computer is capable of is what it was designed for; taking it data and manipulating it into a signal you can intemperate. A computer can think, if by think you mean selecting a logical outcome based on a mathematical algorithm. If the computer is in some way flawed, physically or in its programming, it can produce faulty results. This is not at all unlike what occurs in a schizophrenics mind. But a computer does not choose.

So do we choose? To me it comes down to this; if you believe in the supernatural, that physical law can be defied, then you believe that you choose. If, however, you are like me and believe in causality, that physical law applies to everything in the universe including the unfathomable, then you believe that the decisions you make are just the continuation of events going back to the birth of the universe.

Does that mean I give up, that what was meant to be will be? I choose to finish my path and see where it goes, for better or for worse.

Zoot · Joined: 30 Oct 2005 Posts: 2194

Quote: So do we choose? To me it comes down to this; if you believe in the supernatural, that physical law can be defied, then you believe that you choose. If, however, you are like me and believe in causality, that physical law applies to everything in the universe including the unfathomable, then you believe that the decisions you make are just the continuation of events going back to the birth of the universe.

Choice is causal, by definition.

NeedsREALfreedom · Joined: 04 Oct 2004 Posts: 1761 Location: MN, USA

Zoot wrote: Quote: So do we choose? To me it comes down to this; if you believe in the supernatural, that physical law can be defied, then you believe that you choose. If, however, you are like me and believe in causality, that physical law applies to everything in the universe including the unfathomable, then you believe that the decisions you make are just the continuation of events going back to the birth of the universe.

Choice is causal, by definition.

OK, but is that doesn't mean that there is a will behind it.

Zoot · Joined: 30 Oct 2005 Posts: 2194

Quote: OK, but is that doesn't mean that there is a will behind it.

What is "a will"?

NeedsREALfreedom · Joined: 04 Oct 2004 Posts: 1761 Location: MN, USA

Zoot wrote: Quote: OK, but is that doesn't mean that there is a will behind it.

What is "a will"?

A supernatural force with a "purpose" that can alter the the history of the universe, for whatever reason.

Zoot · Joined: 30 Oct 2005 Posts: 2194

Quote: A supernatural force with a "purpose" that can alter the the history of the universe, for whatever reason.

Does it make choices?

Vicini · Joined: 16 Jan 2006 Posts: 67

If there is a will behind your choices, of course it makes choices. or you would never get out of bed. If there is no will behind your choices, or someone else's will is behind your choices you become a zombie.

NeedsREALfreedom · Joined: 04 Oct 2004 Posts: 1761 Location: MN, USA

Vicini wrote: If there is a will behind your choices, of course it makes choices. or you would never get out of bed. If there is no will behind your choices, or someone else's will is behind your choices you become a zombie.

That makes no sense.

A rock rolls down a hill. A rock has no will, it made no "choice", unless you call following the rule of our universe a choice. Likewise, a person does not choose what neurons in their own brain fire, based on electro-chemical impulses. Choice and will are an illusion, because there is nothing that will happen to change the course of history in our universe, even if that change is something as insignificant a neural connection.

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

When faced with information, you can accept it or not. Some say that the choice of acceptance is determined by factors external to you - i.e there is no free will - yet if you'e been able to accept factors external to you or not then you are determining your influences. This can be traced back right to your point of birth (of consciousness).

Free will a very real, and very much a fact.

NeedsREALfreedom · Joined: 04 Oct 2004 Posts: 1761 Location: MN, USA

Reason wrote: When faced with information, you can accept it or not. Some say that the choice of acceptance is determined by factors external to you - i.e there is no free will - yet if you'e been able to accept factors external to you or not then you are determining your influences. This can be traced back right to your point of birth (of consciousness).

Free will a very real, and very much a fact.

Your making the claim, but you fail to demonstrate a sound reason for it. What evidence of free will is there, other then the imagining of a thinking mind that cannot fathom what is occurring in it's own brain?