Political Crossfire Forums

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16432 Location: On Earth

If Islam is a vile religion as many people like to paint it as, why is Islam the fastest growing religion in the world today? Why are there, then, so many converts to Islam? To answer that question, here are some personal experiences of why people converted to Islam and chose it as their religion in spite of the biased media criticism about Islam:

http://members.aol.com/askgive/stories/joakim1.htm

http://members.aol.com/askgive/stories/mona1.htm

http://thetruereligion.org/modules/xfsection/index.php?category=1

http://www.geocities.com/msaoflagcc/converts.htm

Of course, who could forget the famous Cat Stevens, or as we now know him, Yusuf Islam:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat_Stevens

http://www.yusufislam.org.uk/biodata.htm

Of course, they'll tell you that they have gone past the myths the media circus makes about Islam.
In addition, here is an interesting link that gives you a run-down on a lot of myths that were made up about Islam, from a convert's perspective:
http://www.jews-for-allah.org/jewish-mythson-islam/
This is of course not about Jewish myths about Islam, but general myths about Islam.

Islam is indeed a peaceful religion, just like any other religion this world has to offer. It has, is, and always will spread peacefully throughout this earth, just like any other religion has.

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

Quote: why is Islam the fastest growing religion in the world today?

Because Muslim majority countries tend to be poor and largely illiterate leading to higher birth rates and faster population growth?

Quote: Why are there, then, so many converts to Islam?

Aggressive marriage practices, parlty, and the authouritarian tone of it's most prominent propents captures the weak of mind.

Quote: Myth: Mohammed wrote the Quran

Well if he didn't who did?

Quote: According to the commentaries by Yusif Ali [1281], the root meaning of Jizya is compensation. The derived meaning, which became the technical meaning, was a poll-tax levied from those who did not accept Islam, but were willing to live under the protection of Islam [Protection against surrounding Christian Crusaders and Pagans] and were thus tacitly willing to submit to its ideals being enforced in the Muslim State.

You mean who lived on their land that happened to be within the borders of an area that a Muslim chief claimed?

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16432 Location: On Earth

Quote: Because Muslim majority countries tend to be poor and largely illiterate leading to higher birth rates and faster population growth?

I'm talking about conversion.
China has a high birth rate, and so does India.

Quote: Aggressive marriage practices, parlty, and the authouritarian tone of it's most prominent propents captures the weak of mind.

Not really. Not at all. Did you read those experiences? I'm assuming you're not. So don't troll.

Quote: Well if he didn't who did?

God.

Quote: You mean who lived on their land that happened to be within the borders of an area that a Muslim chief claimed?

Stick to the subject. We as Muslims have a more dutiful pay: Zakat. Even when not in our countries.

:owned:

Don't get off-topic, Reason. This is about converts to Islam, and to show you how people accepted Islam. If you haven't noticed, I'm one of you now: a libertarian:

http://www.minaret.org/

Now, please, stop this senseless trolling. It never got you anywhere in the discussions, and stop ruining the threads I visit.
I'm just asking you to leave. PM me about the other stuff involved.

Zeeman · Posted: Fri Jan 13, 2006 6:08 am Post subject:

Great Post Moth keep em coming God Bless..

As for Zakat and Jizya maybe I should try to explain to those foreign to the religion or just want to stain it with their ugly views,without any research.

Zakat is one of the pillars in Islam for the Muslims.Its purpose is like a tax(but its just one percentage that doesnt change).Zakat helps the poor and provide services for the country.

Since a non-Muslim DOESNT pay Zakat(a pillar of Islam) they pay Jizya for living in the Muslim country.So the difference is in the naming of the tax for technical reasons.

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

Quote: Since a non-Muslim DOESNT pay Zakat(a pillar of Islam) they pay Jizya for living in the Muslim country.So the difference is in the naming of the tax for technical reasons.

and is it 1%?

Quote: China has a high birth rate,

Not true, it has a strictly enforced '1 chilrd policy' if you hadn't noticed.
Quote:
Not really. Not at all. Did you read those experiences? I'm assuming you're not. So don't troll.

It's not trolling, are you saying that the Belgium woman who converted to Islam and then blew herself up did it because of the beauty of the Quran?

Quote: God

Evidence? Proof? Reasoning? It's a pointless line of debate...I suppose, there'll never be agreement between us on this - unless god comes out and declares his existence and his authourship to me.

Quote: Stick to the subject. We as Muslims have a more dutiful pay: Zakat. Even when not in our countries.

So? It's still extortion unless you agree to it. Of course to be a Muslim you have to a gree to it, yet non-Muslims don't agree to the dhimmi tax.

Quote: Don't get off-topic, Reason. This is about converts to Islam, and to show you how people accepted Islam. If you haven't noticed, I'm one of you now: a libertarian:

I hope you realise that means no more banning books....

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16432 Location: On Earth

Quote: and is it 1%?

Nope. You're lucky. It's 2.5%.

Quote: Not true, it has a strictly enforced '1 chilrd policy' if you hadn't noticed.

You still have India.

Quote: It's not trolling, are you saying that the Belgium woman who converted to Islam and then blew herself up did it because of the beauty of the Quran?

As a fellow libertarian, I expected more of you. No, the Belgian woman who blew herself up didn't do it out of the beauty of the Koran, which is NEVER the case, but did it out of her AQ leanings.

Quote: Evidence? Proof? Reasoning? It's a pointless line of debate...I suppose, there'll never be agreement between us on this - unless god comes out and declares his existence and his authourship to me.

The Koran alone is proof that God exists. Look at the Iron in the Koran thread.

Quote: So? It's still extortion unless you agree to it. Of course to be a Muslim you have to a gree to it, yet non-Muslims don't agree to the dhimmi tax

It's not extortion. It's for the good of the Muslim nation.
And btw, Saudi Arabia doesn't have Jizya. Neither does any Islamic country.

Quote: I hope you realise that means no more banning books....

I know that. But that book was a hate-filled subliminal message. Of course, I defend my religion from such poison.

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

Quote: You still have India.

With a far lower birthrate than Yemen, Afghanistan etc. a 10% Muslim population, and a ever decreasing brith rate.

Quote: As a fellow libertarian, I expected more of you. No, the Belgian woman who blew herself up didn't do it out of the beauty of the Koran, which is NEVER the case, but did it out of her AQ leanings.

WHat I'm trying to say is that many of the 'converts' to Islam, like the one's who blow themselves up, are undersirable.

Quote: And btw, Saudi Arabia doesn't have Jizya. Neither does any Islamic country.

No but it does ban Jews, worship of anything but Islam (except secretly at home), and inspired the very reasonable authour of this site, to write it: http://muttawa.blogspot.com/

Quote: I know that. But that book was a hate-filled subliminal message. Of course, I defend my religion from such poison.

"It is clear that the freedom of expression and opinion is a fundamental right, the mother of all rights."
Abid HUSSAIN

"Freedom of expression must be considered sacred and thought can only be corrected by counter thought."
Naguib MAHFOUZ

"I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it."
Francois Marie Arouet VOLTAIRE

You see it's great to criticise soemthing that you hold to be wrong, or that is wrong, but to ban as Mr Mahfouz realises is to forget that mistakes can only be corrected by counter-thought (not book burning).

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16432 Location: On Earth

Quote: With a far lower birthrate than Yemen, Afghanistan etc. a 10% Muslim population, and a ever decreasing brith rate.

Oh does it now? I don't think so.

Quote: WHat I'm trying to say is that many of the 'converts' to Islam, like the one's who blow themselves up, are undersirable.

They're not a lot when it comes to the many converts that convert to Islam and DON'T do anything of that sort:
http://www.convertstoislam.com/
http://www.convertstoislam.org/
And yes, those are undesirable. But it's not because they converted to Islam. They converted to a different, more extreme form of Islam, much like AQ's perverted version of it.

Quote: No but it does ban Jews, worship of anything but Islam (except secretly at home), and inspired the very reasonable authour of this site, to write it: http://muttawa.blogspot.com/

Which makes Saudi Arabia not Islamic, but extreme. Which is what I'm trying to say all along. Btw, a lot of the posts of that "reasonable" person have a lot of bias and are not that serious, especially the political ones.

Quote: You see it's great to criticise soemthing that you hold to be wrong, or that is wrong, but to ban as Mr Mahfouz realises is to forget that mistakes can only be corrected by counter-thought (not book burning).

Alright. Fine. I agree. No banning books. Only counter-thought.

Reason, for my sake, as a fellow libertarian, please do not post anymore on this thread. I want everyone to see this post, especially the opening one.

Ch33kY · Joined: 21 Sep 2005 Posts: 1281

Reason wrote:
"I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it."
Francois Marie Arouet VOLTAIRE

That quote isn't actually a Voltaire quote: Wikipedia: Voltaire - Missatributation

Seeing as Voltaire is on the cards, I thought I'd use this quote from Candide to example why many people are putoff by Islam and the violence attrivuted to in in North Africa and the Middle East.

The Old Woman describes the violent state of affairs in Morocco during her time of enslavement there:

"The slaves, my companions, those who had taken them, soldiers, sailors, blacks, whites, mulattoes, and at last my captain, all were killed, and I remained dying on a heap of dead. Such scenes as these were transacted on a daily basis throughout an extent of three hundred leagues, and yet they never missed the five prayers a day ordained by Muhammad"

Glorfindel · Joined: 06 Oct 2004 Posts: 485 Location: AlRiyadh

Reason wrote:
Evidence? Proof? Reasoning? It's a pointless line of debate...I suppose, there'll never be agreement between us on this - unless god comes out and declares his existence and his authourship to me.

I'm going to assume that you really are a man of reason and ask you this

Is it gonna suffice if God gives you enough evidence and proofs in the Quran that he exists without coming down so you could see him?

I'll give you a few examples and proffs and the Quran was in fact God's Holy book... and I'm not gonna write in details about those examples unless you ask me to...

1- you do know that the moon is not really a source of light..but it reflects the light coming from the sun on its surface, right? 1400 years ago the moon was considered a planet like Mars or Venus...the question is here.. how did Mohammed know that it was not like that and that the moon is not a source of light but it reflects it from the sun? this scientific fact is found in the Quran...and there is no way that any human 1400 years ago could have known that until the last century...

2- it is a proven scientific fact that mountains consist of not only the the part of see but in fact half of a mountain is under the surface of the earth...mountains have roots and their foundation in deep inside the earth..not on the surface... now how could Mohammed find that out?

3- how about the stars? you know that many of the stars that you can see in the sky have already ceased to exist and vanished...you would then wonder, how come we still can see them shining in the sky? the asnwer to that it because of the destination between earth and that star.. for example, we see the light from the closest star to us after 4.3 years from the departure of that light from that star... so even if the star is no more, we would still be able to receive the light it emitted before it ceased to emitting that light..>so even when you think that you are looking at the star...you actually are looking at the light that star emitted at that location, from which the star may have moved and departed to a different location.now why did I want to use stars as one of my examples? i'll tell you now :) . God in Quran in one verse swore by the locations of the stars... BY THE LOCATIONS OF THE STARS...and not the stars themselves... why would God swear by the locations of the stars and not the stars themselves? the location in which a star has been is always there even if the star is not in that location anymore..the star might move or die but its location is always gonna be there...now how could Mohammed know these facts about the stars and their locations? the man did not know how to read and write...

these are three examples..that a man of reason should thoroughly think about... and I have got alot more than these examples if you want.. and I also can provide you with more details or the sources of these examples

you do not need god to show himself to you and be seen by your naked eye... which you would not be able to do..because your eyes would not bear the light and are not designed to observe God. you should be a man of reason and think of all the proofs and evidence that God provided to you to acknowledge his existence

thx

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

Quote: Is it gonna suffice if God gives you enough evidence and proofs in the Quran that he exists without coming down so you could see him?

Of course as long as I get to rationally define the word 'enough'.

Quote: how did Mohammed know that it was not like that and that the moon is not a source of light but it reflects it from the sun? this scientific fact is found in the Quran...

Could you give me the passage that says that, preferably in both Arabic and English, though the passage numbers will suffice. The only bit I know is the word 'Siraj' which is used for the sun but not the moon, some have consluded that since it's meaning is akin to fire the Quran must be telling us that the moon is a reflection of the sun. Of course the fact that the moon does not look fiery and the sun does more easily explains this.
Quote:
and there is no way that any human 1400 years ago could have known that until the last century...

The Arithmetical Classic of the Gnomon and the Circular Paths, written during the Han Dynasty, is an ancient work on mathematics. The book not only summarizes the mathematical achievements made up to that time, such as the multiplication and division of fractions, the application of fractions and the use of right-angled triangles for astronomical calculations, but also records scientific knowledge in many other areas, including the movement of the heavenly bodies, and the fact that the moon reflects the sun's light.

http://www.china.org.cn/e-gudai/6.htm

btw the Han principality was founded 220 BC.

Quote: 2- it is a proven scientific fact that mountains consist of not only the the part of see but in fact half of a mountain is under the surface of the earth...mountains have roots and their foundation in deep inside the earth..not on the surface... now how could Mohammed find that out?

evidence?

Quote: you do not need god to show himself to you and be seen by your naked eye... which you would not be able to do..because your eyes would not bear the light and are not designed to observe God. you should be a man of reason and think of all the proofs and evidence that God provided to you to acknowledge his existence

I ask for proof or evidence and you gave me these truly flawed or evidenceless examples.

Quote: God in Quran in one verse swore by the locations of the stars... BY THE LOCATIONS OF THE STARS...and not the stars themselves... why would God swear by the locations of the stars and not the stars themselves? the location in which a star has been is always there even if the star is not in that location anymore..the star might move or die but its location is always gonna be there...now how could Mohammed know these facts about the stars and their locations? the man did not know how to read and write...

I aksed for evidence...this is a really weak attempt. I mean there is swearing on the location of the stars, the rest (your conlcusions) don't follow.

Glorfindel · Joined: 06 Oct 2004 Posts: 485 Location: AlRiyadh

Reason wrote: Quote: Is it gonna suffice if God gives you enough evidence and proofs in the Quran that he exists without coming down so you could see him?

Of course as long as I get to rationally define the word 'enough'.

Quote: how did Mohammed know that it was not like that and that the moon is not a source of light but it reflects it from the sun? this scientific fact is found in the Quran...

Could you give me the passage that says that, preferably in both Arabic and English, though the passage numbers will suffice. The only bit I know is the word 'Siraj' which is used for the sun but not the moon, some have consluded that since it's meaning is akin to fire the Quran must be telling us that the moon is a reflection of the sun. Of course the fact that the moon does not look fiery and the sun does more easily explains this.
Quote:
and there is no way that any human 1400 years ago could have known that until the last century...

The Arithmetical Classic of the Gnomon and the Circular Paths, written during the Han Dynasty, is an ancient work on mathematics. The book not only summarizes the mathematical achievements made up to that time, such as the multiplication and division of fractions, the application of fractions and the use of right-angled triangles for astronomical calculations, but also records scientific knowledge in many other areas, including the movement of the heavenly bodies, and the fact that the moon reflects the sun's light.

http://www.china.org.cn/e-gudai/6.htm

btw the Han principality was founded 220 BC.

Quote: 2- it is a proven scientific fact that mountains consist of not only the the part of see but in fact half of a mountain is under the surface of the earth...mountains have roots and their foundation in deep inside the earth..not on the surface... now how could Mohammed find that out?

evidence?

Quote: you do not need god to show himself to you and be seen by your naked eye... which you would not be able to do..because your eyes would not bear the light and are not designed to observe God. you should be a man of reason and think of all the proofs and evidence that God provided to you to acknowledge his existence

I ask for proof or evidence and you gave me these truly flawed or evidenceless examples.

Quote: God in Quran in one verse swore by the locations of the stars... BY THE LOCATIONS OF THE STARS...and not the stars themselves... why would God swear by the locations of the stars and not the stars themselves? the location in which a star has been is always there even if the star is not in that location anymore..the star might move or die but its location is always gonna be there...now how could Mohammed know these facts about the stars and their locations? the man did not know how to read and write...

I aksed for evidence...this is a really weak attempt. I mean there is swearing on the location of the stars, the rest (your conlcusions) don't follow.

you want me to define the word "Enough"? are you serious? what do you think enough means? you are not gonna be like Bill Clinton now are you?

Mohammed did not know to write and read in his own native language... are you implying that he nonetheless knew how to read in Chinese? the man did not travel past the southernmost part of Syria ..how did he get a hold of a chinese scholar?

for the verse about the difference between the light emitted by the sun and the one reflected on the moon check Surat Yunis (Jonah) the fifth verse...

http://www.famousmuslims.com/The%20Quran%20on%20Mountain.htm

check this link to learn more about mountains and their roots

about the stars and their location... why didn't god swear by the stars? because they move, they die and they vanish... their locations are permenant ... and for a muslim... you would always wonder why Allah swore by their locations and not by the stars themselves..but when you read and learn of these new facts about the stars and their death and movement..then you would appreciate and see the wisdom and miracle behind such verse...

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

Quote: you want me to define the word "Enough"? are you serious? what do you think enough means? you are not gonna be like Bill Clinton now are you?

Some evidence would be nice...
Quote:
Mohammed did not know to write and read in his own native language... are you implying that he nonetheless knew how to read in Chinese? the man did not travel past the southernmost part of Syria ..how did he get a hold of a chinese scholar?

Do you have read an article by the guy who disocvered the world was round to know it? Or does everybody know and it pass through general culture. Could not some apsects of views travelled the very short journey fron China to Arabia?

Quote: check this link to learn more about mountains and their roots

and?
Quote:
hy didn't god swear by the stars? because they move, they die and they vanish... their locations are permenant ..

That's a very desperate longshot. almost like saying South Park is the word of god because it correctly predicted that there would be a movie about gay bowboys...though perhaps this is more of a long shot since it relies on metaphors being taken literally and then skewed in meaning.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 24244

Doesn't Islamic law prescribe the killing of anyone who leaves Islam?

If that's true...then listing Christian converts from Islam could be dangerious, no?

Glorfindel · Joined: 06 Oct 2004 Posts: 485 Location: AlRiyadh

[quote="Reason"] Quote:
Do you have read an article by the guy who disocvered the world was round to know it? Or does everybody know and it pass through general culture. Could not some apsects of views travelled the very short journey fron China to Arabia?

ever heard of Galileo?

the general knowledge you are talking about got people executed in the middle age in Europe...

how about Coppernicus?

if you know about those two men..then you should know of the conflict with the church over such " general knowledge"

you are not suppose to be amazed about the difference between the light of sun and the moon... because we in this age all know that...but when an illiterate man had told the difference 1400 years ago ..that's what should amaze you

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

Quote:
you are not suppose to be amazed about the difference between the light of sun and the moon... because we in this age all know that...but when an illiterate man had told the difference 1400 years ago ..that's what should amaze you

No, he simply failed to call the moon 'fiery' probably because it doens't look very fiery. What should really amaze me is that a man in China discovered and cretainly proved in mathematical form that the moon was reflecting the sun's light. He did that over 2000 years ago.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16432 Location: On Earth

Quote: No, he simply failed to call the moon 'fiery' probably because it doens't look very fiery. What should really amaze me is that a man in China discovered and cretainly proved in mathematical form that the moon was reflecting the sun's light. He did that over 2000 years ago.

Take a look at Science and Islam: perfect for each other, Reason. Maybe that might clear things up for you.

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

Quote: Take a look at Science and Islam: perfect for each other, Reason. Maybe that might clear things up for you.

Science is a method, Islam is a conclusion. If Islam became the conclusion of science (not scientists necessarily) then I'd adopt it; however I don't reckon that any religion could is the conclusion of reason or the scietific method. So it isn't my conclusion either.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16432 Location: On Earth

You didn't get it. Islam states scientific phenonmena.

Science found it out. But consider this: the Koran was reveald to the Prophet (PBUH) at a time where NO such scientific discoveries could have been made.

Robin Hood · Joined: 14 Sep 2005 Posts: 3295

Quote: Science found it out. But consider this: the Koran was reveald to the Prophet (PBUH) at a time where NO such scientific discoveries could have been made.

Which scieitifc facts does the Koran reveal? I mean it's a little farfetched to claim that it implies that the moon reflects the sun's light, but even if accepted then it doesn't show anything because a Chinese guy proved it hundreds of years before the Quran existed.

I don't tend to discuss the existence of god with theists because it will never end in agreement...we are arguing from totally different perspectives. One of reason, and the other of faith. Sure you're arguments are reasonable but they rely on an assumption of faith, you are in effect: rationalising. I won't respect you less for it, but I won't accept it as an equal answer.

You being Muslim obviously view Islam as the real religion...I see all religions as fantasy. Sure I've enjoyed myself praying in Buddhist mountainside monasteries, wondered at the Cistene chapel's ceiling, and attended (without praying) Friday evening prayersin Cham mosques, but fundementally I reject all of them.

You obviously gain something from your religion, and want others to similarly benefit but to me they all seem as believable as The Lord of the Rings. Like my attitude to that book/film I don't hate them and enjoy aspects of them...but certainly don't believe in them.