Political Crossfire Forums

[absurd-hero]

Hi there everyone

There hasn't really been a time when the Jews weren't persecuted...

The Nazis persecuted them, now the Israel-Palestine issue (Although for this particular issue.. some might say that the Israelis are the bullies. Doesn't really feel like it though, when the rest of the middle east is against them).

What did the Jews do exactly? Were they just at the wrong place at the wrong time? Is it because they sent Jesus to the cross?

[Ellron]

absurd-hero wrote: Hi there everyone

There hasn't really been a time when the Jews weren't persecuted...

The Nazis persecuted them, now the Israel-Palestine issue (Although for this particular issue.. some might say that the Israelis are the bullies. Doesn't really feel like it though, when the rest of the middle east is against them).

What did the Jews do exactly? Were they just at the wrong place at the wrong time? Is it because they sent Jesus to the cross?

Because the were spread out and had no home country.

[Demonic Spoon]

1) Christian persecution of Jews (Nazi Germany) is because they sent jesus to the cross, didn't believe he was the savior, etc...is my guess

2) Palestinian is likely due to the fact that the Arabs got their land forcibly removed for them to live on.

[absurd-hero]

Well I guess the start of it all would be their persecuting Jesus then..

Either that or they really are damn unlucky. :(

Poor guys.

[Simon De Montfort]

Demonic Spoon wrote: 1) Christian persecution of Jews (Nazi Germany) is because they sent jesus to the cross, didn't believe he was the savior, etc...is my guess


Nazi Germany's planned extermination of the Jews had NOTHING to do with Christianity or even prior Christian persecution of Jews.

Care to explain Soviet persecution of Jews? Can't blame that on christians now can you? What about current European anti-semitism? No Christian basis to that either.

While Christian persecution has been a problem for Jews in the west prior to 1900 it doesn't explain the problems Jews have had in other parts of the world. Jews didn't just go to Euorpe. They spread out around the world and faced descrimination had hatred wherever they went.

The only explanation I can think of for why Jews have had problems is that wherever they have lived they have kept themselves separate from the culture the lived in. They maintained their different faith and different culture.

[Rizla]

Simon De Montfort wrote:

The only explanation I can think of for why Jews have had problems is that wherever they have lived they have kept themselves separate from the culture the lived in. They maintained their different faith and different culture.

There's more to it than that. They kept thier own culture and developed it to ensure sucess for themselves. They developed business skills and cooperated with each other within their own community. Once they had wealth... money makes money!
So the level of anti-semitism seems to be directly link to the culture in which they find themselves, and their level of sucess.

For example, the Germans are known for efficiency, and even inventiveness, yet they are not that creative, and not know for their imagination (which explains thier humour). Jews thrive amoung germans who in turn then see them as a threat.
In countries like Britian and America where we are naturally entrpenurial, jews can't make as much impact, that anti-semitism is not so much of a problem... however, it still exists, not least because we like to be 'fair', and Jews are quite ruthless with whatever system they find themselves operating in. And this in turn explains the high levels of anti-semitism in communist countries.

As part of thier survival skills, Jews play the system and thrive on the system, and eventually become the system. So if the system of a particular country is corrupt and hated, jews are seen as corrupt and hated.

This is my theory based on my experiences. The worst Anti-semitism I have seen has been amoung Poles and Hungarians. Certainly in Hungaria, Jews held disproportionate amounts of power on every level of society, both under communism and afterwards. Jews holding political power and dominating the media leads to a disconnect with the people as both these institutions should by rights reflect the general population. Worse still, there are high levels of corruption in the country... and if it seems like everytime you are making a bribe to see a doctor or get into university, it appears the person you have to pay is a Jew, then anti-semitism is eneviatble.

Another reason may be that often they became refugees and had to start at the bottom. On several occassions Jews have fled to Britian and found themselves amoung the poorest people. Yet again, they thrive, often doing whatever it takes to survive. And thus in Britian, at several points in history, Jews have gaind the reputation of being pimps, fences, con-artists, and worse. The Jack the ripper Murders were suspected by many to have been carried out by a Jew.
And of course, the character of Fagin is a sterotype which goes back tot he times of Dickens and before.

[absurd-hero]

When they say that the Jews had no home country... since when did they lost it exactly?

Usually we hear of Jews from 2 periods. After the exodus the Jews returned to Palestine. Then the Greeks came into power, followed by the Romans.

Then the next you hear of the Jews was when The UN "handed" Israel back to the Jews. When did the Jews lose their land?

[DumbTeen]

Virtually all minorities are picked on... Muslims in India, Jews in the West, Blacks in America etc. This is not abnormal.

The only reason Jews get special mention is because they've been present in virtually every white-Christian country and our knowledge of history and society is 90% that of white-Christian countries and hence it seems like they get persecuted much more than average.

And, while it's true that the Holocaust was on a scale unprecedented, I don't think this accounts really for why we talk about Jews and antisemitism so much. After all, there have been equally devastating genocides, such as the Armenian Genocide, which don't get nearly as much attention because... Well there aren't that many Armenians to pick on in white-christian countries so who the hell are they anyway?

[antonio62]

I think party of it stems back to Catholics not being able to lend money so the Jews did it which made them rich and others resented it.

[Demonic Spoon]

Quote:
Nazi Germany's planned extermination of the Jews had NOTHING to do with Christianity or even prior Christian persecution of Jews.

Care to explain Soviet persecution of Jews? Can't blame that on christians now can you? What about current European anti-semitism? No Christian basis to that either.

While Christian persecution has been a problem for Jews in the west prior to 1900 it doesn't explain the problems Jews have had in other parts of the world. Jews didn't just go to Euorpe. They spread out around the world and faced descrimination had hatred wherever they went.

The only explanation I can think of for why Jews have had problems is that wherever they have lived they have kept themselves separate from the culture the lived in. They maintained their different faith and different culture.


Defensive, aren't we? Hitler's justificiation for it was religious. If it had nothing to do with Christianity, then how is it that he exterminated pretty much everyone except ARYAN LUTHERANS?

[sherborne]

Demonic Spoon wrote: Quote:
Nazi Germany's planned extermination of the Jews had NOTHING to do with Christianity or even prior Christian persecution of Jews.

Care to explain Soviet persecution of Jews? Can't blame that on christians now can you? What about current European anti-semitism? No Christian basis to that either.

While Christian persecution has been a problem for Jews in the west prior to 1900 it doesn't explain the problems Jews have had in other parts of the world. Jews didn't just go to Euorpe. They spread out around the world and faced descrimination had hatred wherever they went.

The only explanation I can think of for why Jews have had problems is that wherever they have lived they have kept themselves separate from the culture the lived in. They maintained their different faith and different culture.


Defensive, aren't we? Hitler's justificiation for it was religious. If it had nothing to do with Christianity, then how is it that he exterminated pretty much everyone except ARYAN LUTHERANS?

Thats a load of bull pants. The justification was racial and not religious. Social Darwinism ring any bells! Ayrans were (apparently) the creators of culture. Then races like the slavic race, who were incapable of creating culture but could help to sustain it were on the second tier. The Jews were at the bottom of the pile and they were destroyers of culture. Hitler would write in Mein Kampf that if the Jew was simply left to his own devices, that would prove to be necessarily dangerous for the society that he/she lives in. Therefore the Jew must be removed from society. If you read Mein Kampf its all there for you. It makes little if any refrence to biblical teachings.

[Demonic Spoon]

Mhmm...then why were catholics sent to the gas chambers too?

[sherborne]

antonio62 wrote: I think party of it stems back to Catholics not being able to lend money so the Jews did it which made them rich and others resented it.

You have a point with this one. Nazi anti-semitism was born out of some economic considerations. Hitler was greatly influenced by an argument labeled 'interest slavery'. This argument basically says that the worlds capital is a slave to the stock exchanges and currency speculators. In a sense, i suppose it is. But what the Nazis were to say is that the stock exchanges and currency speculators were all Jewish. Thus the Jews had direct controll over the worlds capital and were responsible for events like the wall street crash and the great depression. In a nation like Germany that was hit so hard by such events, Nazi propaganda would have rested upon fertile ground.

1 more aspect that is worth consideration is the role of Jews in wartime Germany. During the first world war the most vocal people against the war were extreme left wing groups and then, to a lesser extent, parties like the SPD. Members of the USPD like Kurt Eisner and the Spartacists like Rosa Luxemberg were Jewish and Russian born, with Russian followers in Germany. A theory that had wide circulation at the time was that of a 'Jewish conspiracy' in the service of soviet communism that was bent on overthrowing other powers. People like Eisner and Luxemberg were vocal opponents of the war and advocated that defeat for Germany had to be the pre-requisite for political change in Germany. This enraged all of the right wing in Germany and can clearly be seen in the stab in the back legend. The subsequent revolution by left wing forces in Germany was horrifically violent. German cities were in chaos and it was left to the Freikorp to put down the insurgency in just as brutal fashion. The whole perioid was remembered as a 'rule of horror' and blame was handed down to the Jews through Hitlers powerful oratory. They were a convienient scape goat that fitted nicley into the picture for right wing germany.

[sherborne]

Demonic Spoon wrote: Mhmm...then why were catholics sent to the gas chambers too?

They werent! Maybe you are confusing death camps with concentration camps. Or maybe you are confusing catholics with Jehovas witnesses. Either way, your wrong.

[Lucky Luke]

Rizla wrote: Simon De Montfort wrote:

The only explanation I can think of for why Jews have had problems is that wherever they have lived they have kept themselves separate from the culture the lived in. They maintained their different faith and different culture.

There's more to it than that. They kept thier own culture and developed it to ensure sucess for themselves. They developed business skills and cooperated with each other within their own community. Once they had wealth... money makes money!
So the level of anti-semitism seems to be directly link to the culture in which they find themselves, and their level of sucess.

For example, the Germans are known for efficiency, and even inventiveness, yet they are not that creative, and not know for their imagination (which explains thier humour). Jews thrive amoung germans who in turn then see them as a threat.
In countries like Britian and America where we are naturally entrpenurial, jews can't make as much impact, that anti-semitism is not so much of a problem... however, it still exists, not least because we like to be 'fair', and Jews are quite ruthless with whatever system they find themselves operating in. And this in turn explains the high levels of anti-semitism in communist countries.

As part of thier survival skills, Jews play the system and thrive on the system, and eventually become the system. So if the system of a particular country is corrupt and hated, jews are seen as corrupt and hated.

This is my theory based on my experiences. The worst Anti-semitism I have seen has been amoung Poles and Hungarians. Certainly in Hungaria, Jews held disproportionate amounts of power on every level of society, both under communism and afterwards. Jews holding political power and dominating the media leads to a disconnect with the people as both these institutions should by rights reflect the general population. Worse still, there are high levels of corruption in the country... and if it seems like everytime you are making a bribe to see a doctor or get into university, it appears the person you have to pay is a Jew, then anti-semitism is eneviatble.

Another reason may be that often they became refugees and had to start at the bottom. On several occassions Jews have fled to Britian and found themselves amoung the poorest people. Yet again, they thrive, often doing whatever it takes to survive. And thus in Britian, at several points in history, Jews have gaind the reputation of being pimps, fences, con-artists, and worse. The Jack the ripper Murders were suspected by many to have been carried out by a Jew.
And of course, the character of Fagin is a sterotype which goes back tot he times of Dickens and before.

I happen to agree with you Rizla, not only the Jewish community has had these kinds of problem but free masons too get very rich quick by helping each other. Whatever group of people like those say to justify themselves they are not sharing their wealth with any other groups and it does cause resentment when there is not enough wealth for everyone to go around, they quickly become easy targets in times of economic hardship.

Another point I like to emphasise is that we all are refugees just like the Jewish community, the only difference with them is that we forgot about our roots and interbreed with other groups when we moved from continents to continents. Hitler understood this quickly when Nazi historians came back to tell the Fuhrer that civilisation started in the Middle East and that mankind more likely originated in the heart of Africa.

I think that the Jewish people are mistaken and just like the Christians had to accept that earth was round, the Jews will have to accept that they are not the chosen ones but just another tribe like others that originated in the Middle East like we all did.

:-D
:-D

[sherborne]

Lucky Luke wrote:
I happen to agree with you Rizla, not only the Jewish community has had these kinds of problem but free masons too get very rich quick by helping each other. Whatever group of people like those say to justify themselves they are not sharing their wealth with any other groups and it does cause resentment when there is not enough wealth for everyone to go around, they quickly become easy targets in times of economic hardship.

Another point I like to emphasise is that we all are refugees just like the Jewish community, the only difference with them is that we forgot about our roots and interbreed with other groups when we moved from continents to continents. Hitler understood this quickly when Nazi historians came back to tell the Fuhrer that civilisation started in the Middle East and that mankind more likely originated in the heart of Africa.

I think that the Jewish people are mistaken and just like the Christians had to accept that earth was round, the Jews will have to accept that they are not the chosen ones but just another tribe like others that originated in the Middle East like we all did.

:-D
:-D

I agree. Though i certainly dont believe that it is a pan-Jewish problem that some believe themselves to be Gods chosen people. However there were some Jewish communists involved in the German revolution that believed they had a messianic mission to elevate the spiritual health of the world through implementing certain policies like communism.

[Jehan]

DumbTeen wrote: And, while it's true that the Holocaust was on a scale unprecedented, I don't think this accounts really for why we talk about Jews and antisemitism so much. After all, there have been equally devastating genocides, such as the Armenian Genocide, which don't get nearly as much attention because... Well there aren't that many Armenians to pick on in white-christian countries so who the hell are they anyway?

No offense, but the Armenien Genocide was on a much lower scale, only about 1.2 million. Stalin and Hitler get all the publicity because they are the two biggest mass-murderers in history

[Bag of Rags]

Demonic Spoon wrote: Quote:
Nazi Germany's planned extermination of the Jews had NOTHING to do with Christianity or even prior Christian persecution of Jews.

Care to explain Soviet persecution of Jews? Can't blame that on christians now can you? What about current European anti-semitism? No Christian basis to that either.

While Christian persecution has been a problem for Jews in the west prior to 1900 it doesn't explain the problems Jews have had in other parts of the world. Jews didn't just go to Euorpe. They spread out around the world and faced descrimination had hatred wherever they went.

The only explanation I can think of for why Jews have had problems is that wherever they have lived they have kept themselves separate from the culture the lived in. They maintained their different faith and different culture.


Defensive, aren't we? Hitler's justificiation for it was religious. If it had nothing to do with Christianity, then how is it that he exterminated pretty much everyone except ARYAN LUTHERANS?

Detrich Bonhoffer


Wrong again, Demonic Spoon.

[absurd-hero]

All good points. For the WW2 period, I tend to agree that the reasons were economic.

But the one question still unanswered is why on earth are they so spread out in the first place? Since when did they lose their home country?

[Zeeman]

Well part of this could be that the Jewish Holocaust is remembered by them and reminded to us over and over that it seems this way...

Unfortnately there were other less remembered massacres like the Armenian,Chinese,Bosinian..These are just as horrific but are almost long forgotten..