Political Crossfire Forums

MJB · Joined: 14 Apr 2006 Posts: 594

mODULAR mAN wrote: Or, maybe you aren't paying attention or looking into your religion. Either way, what do you say about this?

Quote: In 1835, the Church issued an official statement indicating that because the United States government allowed slavery, the Church would not "interfere with bond-servants, neither preach the gospel to, nor baptize them contrary to the will and wish of their masters, nor meddle with or influence them in the least to cause them to be dissatisfied with their situations in this life, thereby jeopardizing the lives of men." (LDS D&C Covenant 134:12).

So just what do you think I need to say about it?

It comes from a declaration regarding earthly governments and laws. You could have posted more than just a portion of the verse easily enough though. Better yet - here's the link to the whole section:

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/134

You obviously desire to find some fault with which to criticize by posting this, but I shouldn't need to remind you that the LDS Church is an ecclesiastical body with no authority of any kind over earthly governments, in any land in which it resides. But the LDS Church is made up of citizens who live under the authority of those governments, and as such are beholden to abide by the laws of the lands in which they live.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

MJB, I hope you will watch this documentary. Also anyone else who is interested in the subject.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2123385090702569026&q=mormon

MJB · Joined: 14 Apr 2006 Posts: 594

cap'n queasy wrote: MJB, I hope you will watch this documentary. Also anyone else who is interested in the subject.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2123385090702569026&q=mormon

:lol:

Been there.

Review of the video 'The Bible vs. the Book of Mormon'
Behind the Mask, Behind the Curtain: Uncovering the Illusion
by Brant A. Gardner

http://www.fairlds.org/Bible/Bible_vs_the_Book_of_Mormon_Video.html

One of my favorites:

Quote: In discussing the Book of Mormon we have the second "optical illusion" in this section when the film zooms to a verse in the Book of Mormon (the first was panning an empty landscape while speaking of Jaredite cities): "Their land also is full of silver and gold, neither is there any end of their treasures; their land is also full of horses, neither is there any end of their chariots" (2 Nephi 12:7), suggesting that Book of Mormon culture includes vast numbers of horses and chariots.

What the editors do not tell the viewer is that the verse is a direct quotation of Isaiah 2:7. It may be in the Book of Mormon, but it refers to the Old World. Since the heading of the chapter clearly indicates that it comes from Isaiah, I cannot imagine how the editors could have made the mistake of assuming that this referred to the New World. If they were close enough to take the picture they used, they were close enough to see that this verse was a quotation from Isaiah. The only reasonable conclusion is that they intended to deceive. Ironically, then, the most damning passage about horses they could find in the Book of Mormon is from Isaiah.

The deception continues in the narration: "The Book of Mormon describes the use of horse-drawn chariots during massive battles involving tens of thousands of warriors." This might seem plausible to one who has never read the Book of Mormon and has seen only the Isaiah passage. The statement is absolutely incorrect. Nothing like it appears in the text of the Book of Mormon. Horses are never ridden. Horses are never described as pulling chariots (though we do see the phrase horses and chariots in the text). No battle scene includes either horses or chariots.24

One would think that the film's "Latter-day Saint experts" would have corrected such an error of fact. Unfortunately, the expert quoted makes the very same factual error. "So the stories of riding horses into battle," Wilson claims, "could not have occurred in the Americas." Stories of riding horses into battle do not occur in the Book of Mormon. Wilson's conclusion demonstrates that he has not read the Book of Mormon carefully or that he is simply willing to invent statements about it.

BOggThe1rst · Joined: 16 Oct 2006 Posts: 93

MJB wrote: BOggThe1rst wrote: Are you going to further shove your head in the sand or actually tackle the facts laid upon the table?
Everyone here has brought up clear misrepresentations found in your "book",
Are you going to take them into account and prove us wrong or continue posting "mormon" websites?

No, "facts," have been laid upon the table, just accusations which the articles in the links I posted have addressed. But if you wish to shove your head further into the sand and ignore what they have to say - that's your prerogative.

I'm still waiting for you to challenge all of the facts we have laid upon the table.

ikari · Joined: 24 Sep 2004 Posts: 7199 Location: Colorado

So this hill were a couple massive battles took place and claimed the lives of countless people...is there any archaeological evidence which supports there having been a war on that site?

BOggThe1rst · Joined: 16 Oct 2006 Posts: 93

ikari wrote: So this hill were a couple massive battles took place and claimed the lives of countless people...is there any archaeological evidence which supports there having been a war on that site?

None whatsoever,
This, among many other facts, is why mormons never dare tackle the facts.
They instead post mormon websites to keep themselves in willingfull ignorance.

mODULAR mAN · Joined: 13 Oct 2006 Posts: 852 Location: censored

BOggThe1rst wrote: ikari wrote: So this hill were a couple massive battles took place and claimed the lives of countless people...is there any archaeological evidence which supports there having been a war on that site?

None whatsoever,
This, among many other facts, is why mormons never dare tackle the facts.
They instead post mormon websites to keep themselves in willingfull ignorance.

I have found this to be very common. I once asked "which is the most correct religion", and a mormon answered, "whichever closest follows the teachings of Jesus." :shock: :lol: :lol:

I have only met Mormon's who have left the faith or consider it silly. Thank goodness for the internet so I can get a slimpse of dellusional behavior.

(Of course, before I make any friends, I think all religions are practiced by dellusional people) :)

MJB · Joined: 14 Apr 2006 Posts: 594

BOggThe1rst wrote: MJB wrote: BOggThe1rst wrote: Are you going to further shove your head in the sand or actually tackle the facts laid upon the table?
Everyone here has brought up clear misrepresentations found in your "book",
Are you going to take them into account and prove us wrong or continue posting "mormon" websites?

No, "facts," have been laid upon the table, just accusations which the articles in the links I posted have addressed. But if you wish to shove your head further into the sand and ignore what they have to say - that's your prerogative.

I'm still waiting for you to challenge all of the facts we have laid upon the table.

Again, you've laid no, "facts," on the table, but I see you've been unable to address anything covered in the multitude of articles posted.

MJB · Joined: 14 Apr 2006 Posts: 594

ikari wrote: So this hill were a couple massive battles took place and claimed the lives of countless people...is there any archaeological evidence which supports there having been a war on that site?

:lol:

Hey - if you think you know the location these battles took place, by all means, get a shovel and start digging.

MJB · Joined: 14 Apr 2006 Posts: 594

BOggThe1rst wrote: ikari wrote: So this hill were a couple massive battles took place and claimed the lives of countless people...is there any archaeological evidence which supports there having been a war on that site?

None whatsoever,
This, among many other facts, is why mormons never dare tackle the facts.
They instead post mormon websites to keep themselves in willingfull ignorance.

No - it's willful ignorance on your part to ignore the multitude of information already posted. If you actually read it, you might learn something.

MJB · Joined: 14 Apr 2006 Posts: 594

mODULAR mAN wrote: BOggThe1rst wrote: ikari wrote: So this hill were a couple massive battles took place and claimed the lives of countless people...is there any archaeological evidence which supports there having been a war on that site?

None whatsoever,
This, among many other facts, is why mormons never dare tackle the facts.
They instead post mormon websites to keep themselves in willingfull ignorance.

I have found this to be very common. I once asked "which is the most correct religion", and a mormon answered, "whichever closest follows the teachings of Jesus." :shock: :lol: :lol:

I have only met Mormon's who have left the faith or consider it silly. Thank goodness for the internet so I can get a slimpse of dellusional behavior.

(Of course, before I make any friends, I think all religions are practiced by dellusional people) :)

Well of course - since we all know how rational and intelligent and educated one must necessarily be in order to have the capacity to reject something without proof. After all - if some deluded person actually had the ability (oops, I mean ignorance) to believe in the possibility of something before it was proven, that could lead to crazy things, like... discoveries! :lol: :lol:

mODULAR mAN · Joined: 13 Oct 2006 Posts: 852 Location: censored

MJB wrote: ...to reject something without proof...:

:shock: :lol: Then you must believe in pixies, leperachauns, Odin, Zeus, Krishna...

In fact, you must believe in everything, since their is never proof that something doesn't exist.

What a wonderful world you live in. :roll: (And you can keep it!) :lol:

MJB · Joined: 14 Apr 2006 Posts: 594

mODULAR mAN wrote: MJB wrote: ...to reject something without proof...:

:shock: :lol: Then you must believe in pixies, leperachauns, Odin, Zeus, Krishna...

In fact, you must believe in everything, since their is never proof that something doesn't exist.

What a wonderful world you live in. :roll: (And you can keep it!) :lol:

:lol: :lol:

BOggThe1rst · Joined: 16 Oct 2006 Posts: 93

MJB wrote: BOggThe1rst wrote: ikari wrote: So this hill were a couple massive battles took place and claimed the lives of countless people...is there any archaeological evidence which supports there having been a war on that site?

None whatsoever,
This, among many other facts, is why mormons never dare tackle the facts.
They instead post mormon websites to keep themselves in willingfull ignorance.

No - it's willful ignorance on your part to ignore the multitude of information already posted. If you actually read it, you might learn something.

Countless proof of ancient wars have been found all over the world,
The Mormons have stated their wars happenned on this exact mountain,
Proof should be easy to find especially when we know the location of the battles,
But yet the Mormons do not allow anyone to dig for it,
Even funnier is they dont dare dig for it themselves.
Next.

ikari · Joined: 24 Sep 2004 Posts: 7199 Location: Colorado

MJB wrote: ikari wrote: So this hill were a couple massive battles took place and claimed the lives of countless people...is there any archaeological evidence which supports there having been a war on that site?

:lol:

Hey - if you think you know the location these battles took place, by all means, get a shovel and start digging.

Oh, the vid said that the Mormon's knew where this hill was, and even had stuff there (there was a big sign that said, "The Hill Cumorah Visitor Center"). So I figured, they had the hill...they had this book that claimed a couple ridiculously large battles complete with genocide numbers of death, might as well dig and see what ya find. You know...support the claim and all. Even the Christians do this to show the validity of the Bible.

MJB · Joined: 14 Apr 2006 Posts: 594

ikari wrote: MJB wrote: ikari wrote: So this hill were a couple massive battles took place and claimed the lives of countless people...is there any archaeological evidence which supports there having been a war on that site?

:lol:

Hey - if you think you know the location these battles took place, by all means, get a shovel and start digging.

Oh, the vid said that the Mormon's knew where this hill was, and even had stuff there (there was a big sign that said, "The Hill Cumorah Visitor Center"). So I figured, they had the hill...they had this book that claimed a couple ridiculously large battles complete with genocide numbers of death, might as well dig and see what ya find. You know...support the claim and all. Even the Christians do this to show the validity of the Bible.

Well if the anti-Mormons who made the video were remotely interested in truth or honesty, they would have mentioned the fact that Book of Mormon scholars don't place these battles at, or anywhere near, the Hill Cumorah in New York State, or even within the borders of the United States at all. Based on multiple descriptive identifiers contained within the text of The Book of Mormon itself, as far as I am aware, all possible candidates for the original Cumorah (also known as Ramah) are located in Mexico.

While the Hill Cumorah in the state of New York is named for the Cumorah of The Book of Mormon, and is where Joseph Smith unearthed the plates buried by Moroni, Joseph, himself, never called it Cumorah, nor did he say it was where the final Nephite battle took place.

But, lest you have some problem with the location where Moroni buried the plates of the Book of Mormon, being so far removed from the Nephite/Lamanite battle locale, it may give you a little perspective to understand that the final battle between the Lamanites and the Nephites occurred some 35 or so years before Moroni buried the plates in the upstate New York hillside, and during those many years Moroni, to escape his enemies, wandered, "whithersoever I can for the safety of mine own life."

MJB · Joined: 14 Apr 2006 Posts: 594

BOggThe1rst wrote: MJB wrote: BOggThe1rst wrote: ikari wrote: So this hill were a couple massive battles took place and claimed the lives of countless people...is there any archaeological evidence which supports there having been a war on that site?

None whatsoever,
This, among many other facts, is why mormons never dare tackle the facts.
They instead post mormon websites to keep themselves in willingfull ignorance.

No - it's willful ignorance on your part to ignore the multitude of information already posted. If you actually read it, you might learn something.

Countless proof of ancient wars have been found all over the world,
The Mormons have stated their wars happenned on this exact mountain,
Proof should be easy to find especially when we know the location of the battles,
But yet the Mormons do not allow anyone to dig for it,
Even funnier is they dont dare dig for it themselves.
Next.

Uh... apparently you are unaware that the location of these battles has not been identified, unless you think you know something more than Book of Mormon scholars do, of course.

ikari · Joined: 24 Sep 2004 Posts: 7199 Location: Colorado

They should change that sign then, it's confusing. I mean, there's a big ass hill there and it has the same name as the hill where all those super battles occured. You can't blame people for being confused about that.

MJB · Joined: 14 Apr 2006 Posts: 594

ikari wrote: They should change that sign then, it's confusing. I mean, there's a big ass hill there and it has the same name as the hill where all those super battles occured. You can't blame people for being confused about that.

I don't. But the makers of the video knew better, and no doubt counted on the viewer's confusion with his limited knowledge of the facts.

As for taking the sign down - why? Have you never heard of a namesake? Do you know how many cities there are in America named Salem, for example? Or, say, how many lakes are named Hidden Lake?

ikari · Joined: 24 Sep 2004 Posts: 7199 Location: Colorado

I didn't say take it down, just change the name. Maybe "New Cumorah Hill", or put a little * by it to refer to a footnote explaining this Hill Cumorah is not the same Hill Cumorah as described in the Book of Mormon.