Political Crossfire Forums

[EugenicHegemony]

It would seem secrets breed lies. Use that as our base of discussion. Therefore; "matters of national security" is also a lie.... Burn it down

[$orideals]

To protect the very essence of a secret may require untruthful statements or misleading information or even quite simply irrellevant info.

If a question is directed towards someone who is protecting a secret, the person being questioned has two possible courses of action: non-answer or lie.

[Johannes]

EugenicHegemony wrote: It would seem secrets breed lies. Use that as our base of discussion. Therefore; "matters of national security" is also a lie....

I may be admitting to a real bout of ignorance, but I don't understand why the American (or any country's for that matter) government keeps so many secrets from its people. The fact that when they are caught, they lie (and usually fail to keep this lie suspended over the heads of the populous), leads me only to conclude that they government, elected by the people, isn't acting in the best interest of the people. However, this doesn't mean that governments are inherently liars. It's the people up top that do this.

If a government lies, just once, to its people, it has to lie about the lie, and about the ensuing lie. Suddenly, you have a whole department of liars, within the government, feeding news to the public, who promptly pay the liars for their patriotic service.

[Canada_Rocks]

EugenicHegemony wrote: It would seem secrets breed lies. Use that as our base of discussion. Therefore; "matters of national security" is also a lie.... Burn it down...

As far as secrets go, they obviously breed lies. In fact, I am sure that many lies are secrets. If somebody ever discovered a little bit of dirt, how do we know it wasn't put there to cover something else up that is much more sinister.

National Security is the biggest problem. It basically gives the government the right to lie. We expect them to. We don't even get mad at their lies. Politicans lie everyday. It is what they do. I don't really know what else to say. I think it is very apperant that todays politics revolve around random lies. Instead of us concentrating on the truth, we first need to figure out what the truth is. It is the way of the government keeping us busy and pre-occupied.

[George W Bush]

My reasoning is the same as Orideals.

ide like to mention an example:
Roswell. Government claims they used publics fascination with UFO's to cover their agenda of sending surveillance equipment in space to detect russian nuclear weapons test signals.
In this case, they allege, they did not deny/accept the UFO alien bodies theory but gave no information but later denied any UFO crash.

[Johannes]

George W Bush wrote: My reasoning is the same as Orideals.

ide like to mention an example:
Roswell. Government claims they used publics fascination with UFO's to cover their agenda of sending surveillance equipment in space to detect russian nuclear weapons test signals.
In this case, they allege, they did not deny/accept the UFO alien bodies theory but gave no information but later denied any UFO crash.

And now, they have to spend considerable time and money, our money, covering up what might have happened.

[F'losrix]

EugenicHegemony wrote: It would seem secrets breed lies. Use that as our base of discussion. Therefore; "matters of national security" is also a lie.... Burn it down...
The question in my mind is at what point the lying ceases to be a matter of 'national security' and just becomes about covering their asses.

It's one thing if the secrecy is really used to keep the enemy from knowing your plans. Quite another if it's used to cover up spying on innocents.

Apart from that, I agree with the other posters - keeping the secret necessitates lying and usually leads to more lying to hide or explain away some element that the first lie failed to cover. At some point it becomes such a tangled web that the truth becomes unrecognizable even when it stares you in the face.

Not to mention lying because one doesn't want to believe the truth - that's a whole 'nother thing.

[Pebble]

In order to answer this question you have to first define what a lie is in the context.

For example, is a lie the active telling of an untruth, or the exemption of further truths when what you have said so far is true?

[$orideals]

Pebble wrote: In order to answer this question you have to first define what a lie is in the context.

For example, is a lie the active telling of an untruth, or the exemption of further truths when what you have said so far is true?

Are you serious?

To lie: to knowingly speak falsely, to answer untruthfully, to mislead, to cover up

The problem I have with our current set of societal rules and regulations is the acceptance of the lie. How can we hold politicians accountable if it is widely accepted that all politicians lie??

We actually persecute the people who tell the truth, which in turn causes more people to lie. If a politician were to talk about drug use, then he/she would be stereo typed immediately by a specific portion of the populace, thus from a politicians perspective the only way forward is to lie.

I don't believe people want to know the truth, because the truth is all around us, but it isn't always pretty. The truth may conflict with the lies you have told yourself and the truth may affect how you deal with the environment around you. The truth might even scare you.

Better to be lied to?????????

I think not.

[Pebble]

$orideals wrote: Pebble wrote: In order to answer this question you have to first define what a lie is in the context.

For example, is a lie the active telling of an untruth, or the exemption of further truths when what you have said so far is true?

Are you serious?

Yes. Why?

[Korimyr the Rat]

I think that the principle that a government may keep secrets from the people is utterly antithetical to the ideals of democracy.

How can the people know whether or not to re-elect their current government if that government is dishonest with them about its activities?

[$orideals]

[quote="Pebble"] $orideals wrote: Pebble wrote: In order to answer this question you have to first define what a lie is in the context.

For example, is a lie the active telling of an untruth, or the exemption of further truths when what you have said so far is true?

Are you serious?

To lie is to actively lie, to not say anything is non-answer.

[Borommakot]

The government has to lie sometimes to avoid widespread panic or to keep information away from anyone who would use it to harm the country. The kind of lying that hurts a nation is when the government screws up and then lies about it, that is when things start piling up.

[EugenicHegemony]

Borommakot wrote: The government has to lie sometimes to avoid widespread panic or to keep information away from anyone who would use it to harm the country. The kind of lying that hurts a nation is when the government screws up and then lies about it, that is when things start piling up.

"Widespread panic"?

You mean like those control through fear by governmental color alerts; give me a break.

[Korimyr the Rat]

Borommakot wrote: The kind of lying that hurts a nation is when the government screws up and then lies about it, that is when things start piling up.

The problem is, giving the government the power to lie for the first two reasons gives them the power to lie for this reason.

Especially when the screwups that are occurring are occurring in parts of the government that the government is already lying about-- the Intelligence services.

[Borommakot]

EugenicHegemony wrote: Borommakot wrote: The government has to lie sometimes to avoid widespread panic or to keep information away from anyone who would use it to harm the country. The kind of lying that hurts a nation is when the government screws up and then lies about it, that is when things start piling up.

"Widespread panic"?

You mean like those control through fear by governmental color alerts; give me a break.

I'm talking about things like bird flu. If they thought it might reach part the US and the information got out before they could look into the problem it could cause a panic.

[EugenicHegemony]

Borommakot wrote: EugenicHegemony wrote: Borommakot wrote: The government has to lie sometimes to avoid widespread panic or to keep information away from anyone who would use it to harm the country. The kind of lying that hurts a nation is when the government screws up and then lies about it, that is when things start piling up.

"Widespread panic"?

You mean like those control through fear by governmental color alerts; give me a break.

I'm talking about things like bird flu. If they thought it might reach part the US and the information got out before they could look into the problem it could cause a panic.

Laying all the cards out on the table will not cause panic. They lied about influenza. It created a breakdown in governmental trust and pandemic. Using the threat of "Martial Law" as this traitorous government has done, is absolutely absurd. Talk about controlling fear mongering.

[Borommakot]

EugenicHegemony wrote: Borommakot wrote: EugenicHegemony wrote: Borommakot wrote: The government has to lie sometimes to avoid widespread panic or to keep information away from anyone who would use it to harm the country. The kind of lying that hurts a nation is when the government screws up and then lies about it, that is when things start piling up.

"Widespread panic"?

You mean like those control through fear by governmental color alerts; give me a break.

I'm talking about things like bird flu. If they thought it might reach part the US and the information got out before they could look into the problem it could cause a panic.

Laying all the cards out on the table will not cause panic. They lied about influenza. It created a breakdown in governmental trust and pandemic. Using the threat of "Martial Law" as this traitorous government has done, is absolutely absurd. Talk about controlling fear mongering.

Maybe lie was a bad choice of words. Sometimes the government can't tell everything they know. Do you really think they need to?

[Johannes]

Borommakot wrote: EugenicHegemony wrote: Borommakot wrote: EugenicHegemony wrote: Borommakot wrote: The government has to lie sometimes to avoid widespread panic or to keep information away from anyone who would use it to harm the country. The kind of lying that hurts a nation is when the government screws up and then lies about it, that is when things start piling up.

"Widespread panic"?

You mean like those control through fear by governmental color alerts; give me a break.

I'm talking about things like bird flu. If they thought it might reach part the US and the information got out before they could look into the problem it could cause a panic.

Laying all the cards out on the table will not cause panic. They lied about influenza. It created a breakdown in governmental trust and pandemic. Using the threat of "Martial Law" as this traitorous government has done, is absolutely absurd. Talk about controlling fear mongering.

Maybe lie was a bad choice of words. Sometimes the government can't tell everything they know. Do you really think they need to?

Knowledge is power. You see it all the time in America, much more in this forum, where people referring to the government as "they", rather than "those people that we elected".

The United States's government, or any democratic government, being founded upon the principal that the power lies in the people, not in the ruling adminstration, is fundementally hypocritical when it keeps secrets.

These secrets, knowledge not considered apropriate for the public, is what is keeping these governments from being appreciated as governments for the people, by the people, and of the people.

[Borommakot]

Johannes wrote: Borommakot wrote: EugenicHegemony wrote: Borommakot wrote: EugenicHegemony wrote: Borommakot wrote: The government has to lie sometimes to avoid widespread panic or to keep information away from anyone who would use it to harm the country. The kind of lying that hurts a nation is when the government screws up and then lies about it, that is when things start piling up.

"Widespread panic"?

You mean like those control through fear by governmental color alerts; give me a break.

I'm talking about things like bird flu. If they thought it might reach part the US and the information got out before they could look into the problem it could cause a panic.

Laying all the cards out on the table will not cause panic. They lied about influenza. It created a breakdown in governmental trust and pandemic. Using the threat of "Martial Law" as this traitorous government has done, is absolutely absurd. Talk about controlling fear mongering.

Maybe lie was a bad choice of words. Sometimes the government can't tell everything they know. Do you really think they need to?

Knowledge is power. You see it all the time in America, much more in this forum, where people referring to the government as "they", rather than "those people that we elected".

The United States's government, or any democratic government, being founded upon the principal that the power lies in the people, not in the ruling adminstration, is fundementally hypocritical when it keeps secrets.

These secrets, knowledge not considered apropriate for the public, is what is keeping these governments from being appreciated as governments for the people, by the people, and of the people.

So are you saying the government should make eveything it knows public knowlege?