Political Crossfire Forums

[Silkheat]

I have a question to the Jewish members of this board. How strong is your beleif in the Talmud's teachings? Does the Jewish community use this book to guide their society along with the Torah.

[Creamxec]

Im jewish. To a certain extent. When things get jewish they get personal so of course i will be influenced by the talmud. Do i believe in all the teachings and stories in the talmud? hell no, but i get the morals out of it which is the most important part of the stories

[Silkheat]

Creamxec wrote: Im jewish. To a certain extent. When things get jewish they get personal so of course i will be influenced by the talmud. Do i believe in all the teachings and stories in the talmud? hell no, but i get the morals out of it which is the most important part of the stories


You guys have some scary stuff about goi's in there..

[Israel]

Silkheat wrote: You guys have some scary stuff about goi's in there..
The exact same could be said about the Christian bible.

The difference is that you don't find it disturbing. But I can find plenty of examples of events in the Bible that people find equally reprehensible, the difference being of course that they have read the bible, while I have my suspicion you've never read one piece of the Talmud.

[psholtz]

Israel wrote: Silkheat wrote: You guys have some scary stuff about goi's in there..
The exact same could be said about the Christian bible.
Such as?

[Israel]

psholtz wrote: Israel wrote: Silkheat wrote: You guys have some scary stuff about goi's in there..
The exact same could be said about the Christian bible.
Such as? There are plenty of people on this board and in the world who find parts of the Torah aprehensive... Last time I checked Christians claimed the Torah as part of their canon.

But as you want NT things, you would also find many Jews that find John 8:58 to be quite... well, you get the point. :-D

[psholtz]

Israel wrote: psholtz wrote: Israel wrote: Silkheat wrote: You guys have some scary stuff about goi's in there..
The exact same could be said about the Christian bible.
Such as? There are plenty of people on this board and in the world who find parts of the Torah aprehensive... Last time I checked Christians claimed the Torah as part of their canon.
Not all Christians accept the Torah.. in fact, I'd be the first one in that line if I could be(!).. I personally prefer prepending Plato's Tetralogies to the New Testament when I set about to read Holy Scripture, or perhaps some nice ancient Egyptian hymns or some such thing.. Much more inline w/ the overall character of the NT if you ask me.. :tu:

So bearing that in mind, let's confine our criticism to the NT, shall we? b/c otherwise we won't be able to fairly differentiate between Judaism (or perhaps, Talmudism) on the one hand, and Christianity on the other..

Quote: But as you want NT things, you would also find many Jews that find John 8:58 to be quite... well, you get the point.
Nope, nothing offensive there.. It's just an allegory concerning the transdimensional time-space nature of Christ. I'm no expert in this field.. cap'n for one knows a lot more, and if he picks up this thread I'm sure he'll post his picture of Dali's Hyperdimensional Crucifix-Cube just to drive the point home for you (although I never did quite understand what Dali was truly to say in that piece)..

But the point is, there's nothing offensive in John 8:58.. Nothing racist, nothing biased, etc, nothing like the kind of criticism you frequently see leveled against the Talmud..

[John]

Quote: Nope, nothing offensive there.. It's just an allegory concerning the transdimensional time-space nature of Christ. I'm no expert in this field.. cap'n for one knows a lot more, and if he picks up this thread I'm sure he'll post his picture of Dali's Hyperdimensional Crucifix-Cube just to drive the point home for you (although I never did quite understand what Dali was truly to say in that piece)..

But the point is, there's nothing offensive in John 8:58.. Nothing racist, nothing biased, etc, nothing like the kind of criticism you frequently see leveled against the Talmud..


Hmmm. You've been listening. I guess talking to you isn't a waste of time.:wink: :-D

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: Nope, nothing offensive there.. It's just an allegory concerning the transdimensional time-space nature of Christ. I'm no expert in this field.. cap'n for one knows a lot more, and if he picks up this thread I'm sure he'll post his picture of Dali's Hyperdimensional Crucifix-Cube just to drive the point home for you (although I never did quite understand what Dali was truly to say in that piece)..

But the point is, there's nothing offensive in John 8:58.. Nothing racist, nothing biased, etc, nothing like the kind of criticism you frequently see leveled against the Talmud..

Think of a cube you want to show a person in a two dimensional existence.

You must must unfold the cube and lay it flat. What shape does this create?

Now extrapolate how this cube must appear "unfolded" (think "scroll" unfurled here) to someone in an existence that has more than four dimensions.

[Silkheat]

Israel wrote: Silkheat wrote: You guys have some scary stuff about goi's in there..
The exact same could be said about the Christian bible.

The difference is that you don't find it disturbing. But I can find plenty of examples of events in the Bible that people find equally reprehensible, the difference being of course that they have read the bible, while I have my suspicion you've never read one piece of the Talmud.


Please enlighten me. I would like to know of these scriptures so to speak. I am pretty sure they don't exist.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: But as you want NT things, you would also find many Jews that find John 8:58 to be quite... well, you get the point.

Babylon feels that way about Messiah.

Quote: Psalms 89:38-52 - 38 But You have cast off and rejected, You have been full of wrath against Your anointed. 39 You have spurned the covenant of Your servant; You have profaned his crown in the dust. 40 You have broken down all his walls; You have brought his strongholds to ruin. 41 All who pass along the way plunder him; He has become a reproach to his neighbors. 42 You have exalted the right hand of his adversaries; You have made all his enemies rejoice. 43 You also turn back the edge of his sword And have not made him stand in battle. 44 You have made his splendor to cease And cast his throne to the ground. 45 You have shortened the days of his youth; You have covered him with shame. Selah. 46 How long, O LORD? Will You hide Yourself forever? Will Your wrath burn like fire? 47 Remember what my span of life is; For what vanity You have created all the sons of men! 48 What man can live and not see death? Can he deliver his soul from the power of Sheol? Selah. 49 Where are Your former lovingkindnesses, O Lord, Which You swore to David in Your faithfulness? 50 Remember, O Lord, the reproach of Your servants; How I bear in my bosom the reproach of all the many peoples, 51 With which Your enemies have reproached, O LORD, With which they have reproached the footsteps of Your anointed. 52 Blessed be the LORD forever! Amen and Amen.

[cap'n queasy]

Silkheat wrote: Israel wrote: Silkheat wrote: You guys have some scary stuff about goi's in there..
The exact same could be said about the Christian bible.

The difference is that you don't find it disturbing. But I can find plenty of examples of events in the Bible that people find equally reprehensible, the difference being of course that they have read the bible, while I have my suspicion you've never read one piece of the Talmud.


Please enlighten me. I would like to know of these scriptures so to speak. I am pretty sure they don't exist.

They exist. The Tanahk is part of the Christian Bible, and they are in there. If people knew the whole story they wouldn't find them reprehensible, though.

[Silkheat]

cap'n queasy wrote: Silkheat wrote: Israel wrote: Silkheat wrote: You guys have some scary stuff about goi's in there..
The exact same could be said about the Christian bible.

The difference is that you don't find it disturbing. But I can find plenty of examples of events in the Bible that people find equally reprehensible, the difference being of course that they have read the bible, while I have my suspicion you've never read one piece of the Talmud.


Please enlighten me. I would like to know of these scriptures so to speak. I am pretty sure they don't exist.

They exist. The Tanahk is part of the Christian Bible, and they are in there. If people knew the whole story they wouldn't find them reprehensible, though.


So their are scriptures in the bible that tell you it is ok to to kill non-christians and you should kill them?

[psholtz]

cap'n queasy wrote: Silkheat wrote: Israel wrote: Silkheat wrote: You guys have some scary stuff about goi's in there..
The exact same could be said about the Christian bible.

The difference is that you don't find it disturbing. But I can find plenty of examples of events in the Bible that people find equally reprehensible, the difference being of course that they have read the bible, while I have my suspicion you've never read one piece of the Talmud.


Please enlighten me. I would like to know of these scriptures so to speak. I am pretty sure they don't exist.

They exist. The Tanahk is part of the Christian Bible, and they are in there. If people knew the whole story they wouldn't find them reprehensible, though.
To my knowledge, they don't exist.

Like I said before, let's leave the Tanakh, which is little more than Jewish folklore, out of this debate.. If you include it, it's impossible to distinguish between what's Judaism and what's Christianity.

So the challenge is to find offensive verses in the Christian NT.. So far we haven't found any..

[psholtz]

Silkheat wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Silkheat wrote: Israel wrote: Silkheat wrote: You guys have some scary stuff about goi's in there..
The exact same could be said about the Christian bible.

The difference is that you don't find it disturbing. But I can find plenty of examples of events in the Bible that people find equally reprehensible, the difference being of course that they have read the bible, while I have my suspicion you've never read one piece of the Talmud.


Please enlighten me. I would like to know of these scriptures so to speak. I am pretty sure they don't exist.

They exist. The Tanahk is part of the Christian Bible, and they are in there. If people knew the whole story they wouldn't find them reprehensible, though.


So their are scriptures in the bible that tell you it is ok to to kill non-christians and you should kill them?
To my knowledge, there are no such verses in the Christian New Testament..

[cap'n queasy]

No.

I thought you were talking about something else. Sorry.

I don't think that is exactly what is in the Talmud, either.

[Silkheat]

From the Talmud

In Abhodah Zarah (26b, Tosephoth) it says:
"Even the best of the Goim should be killed"
The Schulchan Arukh, after the words of Iore Dea (158, 1) that those of the Akum who do no harm to Jews are not to be killed, namely those who do not wage war against Israel, thus explains the word Milchamah - war:
"But in time of war the Akum are to be killed, for it is written: 'The good among the Akum deserve to be killed, etc.'"

In Speher Or Israel (177b) it says:
"Take the life of the Kliphoth and kill them, and you will please God the same as one who offers incense to Him."
And in Ialkut Simoni (245c. n. 772) it says:
"Everyone who sheds the blood of the impious is as acceptable to God as he who offers a sacrifice to God."

n Zohar (I, 28b, and 39a) it says:
"In the palaces of the fourth heaven are those who lamented over Sion and Jerusalem, and all those who destroyed idolatrous nations...and those who killed off people who worship idols are clothed in purple garments so that they may be recognized and honored."

"The life of a Goi and all his physical powers belong to a Jew." (A. Rohl. Die Polem. p.20)

[psholtz]

Here are some interesting references:

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/talmud1.htm
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/talmud2.htm

I guess the task would be:

(a) verify that the Talmud really says these things;
(b) verify that exactly the same things can be found in the Christian NT (as some have suggested)..

[Israel]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: But as you want NT things, you would also find many Jews that find John 8:58 to be quite... well, you get the point.

Babylon feels that way about Messiah.
No, we don't.

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Psalms 89:38-52 - 38 But You have cast off and rejected, You have been full of wrath against Your anointed. 39 You have spurned the covenant of Your servant; You have profaned his crown in the dust. 40 You have broken down all his walls; You have brought his strongholds to ruin. 41 All who pass along the way plunder him; He has become a reproach to his neighbors. 42 You have exalted the right hand of his adversaries; You have made all his enemies rejoice. 43 You also turn back the edge of his sword And have not made him stand in battle. 44 You have made his splendor to cease And cast his throne to the ground. 45 You have shortened the days of his youth; You have covered him with shame. Selah. 46 How long, O LORD? Will You hide Yourself forever? Will Your wrath burn like fire? 47 Remember what my span of life is; For what vanity You have created all the sons of men! 48 What man can live and not see death? Can he deliver his soul from the power of Sheol? Selah. 49 Where are Your former lovingkindnesses, O Lord, Which You swore to David in Your faithfulness? 50 Remember, O Lord, the reproach of Your servants; How I bear in my bosom the reproach of all the many peoples, 51 With which Your enemies have reproached, O LORD, With which they have reproached the footsteps of Your anointed. 52 Blessed be the LORD forever! Amen and Amen.
What makes you think this refers to the Messiach???

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: If you include it, it's impossible to distinguish between what's Judaism and what's Christianity.

It impossible to understand Christianity without it. It is intrinsic to the Christian Faith.

Christianity is not a reaction against Judaism.