Political Crossfire Forums

[cap'n queasy]

Or it could just mean that "Christians" don't generally understand the meaning of their own doctrine and what it's roots are. And that they have created a monsterous sham in place of the Truth.

I know that sounds like an argument that Paul would use as well. But our conception of this is wildly divergent. He sees Christianity as an outgrowth of pagan philosophy and idolatry (which has basically caused all the evil he described, look at the history of the Roman Catholic Church, which is a perfect example of such an outgrowth, and which is a religion in which he finds much to agree with) and I see it as the New Covenant given prophesied by Yermiyahu in 31:31, essentially the fulfillment of this prophet's words, which were given by YHWH.

If you note, the branch of this thing called "Christianity" I belong to was persecuted by the Roman church more than it was persecuted by the Roman empire itself. Far more Protestants than Jews were killed by the Catholics (millions in Bohemia, for example). And if you want to take it even farther, any Protestants that can be accused of such acts (like the Lutherans or Calvinists, who killed a few folks) follow a theology that is amillennial in character. Followers of Y'shua who believe in the literal restoration of Israel, the literal coming of Moshiach, and the literal fulfillment of prophecy, both Tanakh and New Covenant simply cannot be connected to any of this type of activity that has occured throughout history but are usually blamed for being the "worst of the worst" in Christianity by non-believers and the general denominations alike.

These sects simply do not believe the promises of YHWH or Y'shua are true, they see faith only as a tool to manipulate society, and this is the source of the evil IMHO.

See what I am saying?

[Mailech]

I have no misconception that today's Christian, of any denomination, is much different than the Christians of old. I do not expect a religious pogrom in America any time soon. I was addressing Paul's criticism of the Talmud as a racist cruel book. Where my point was everything must be understood in context, and without context everything is open to mis-interpretation. As you well know from the bible critics that flood the Christian forum. So you read these things that seem off and wrong. Well, they need context, and the context is what sets up the Jewish structure, which is neither racist nor cruel. (It is 'religious-ist', but how can it not be.) So it is that since the system is good, if the text that defines the system seems evil, then you are looking at it wrong, since how can an evil text be the basis of a good system.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: I have no misconception that today's Christian, of any denomination, is much different than the Christians of old.

Pro-Israel for Jews thinking Christians may resent that statement.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: So it is that since the system is good, if the text that defines the system seems evil, then you are looking at it wrong, since how can an evil text be the basis of a good system.

It can't. But it is the Tanakh, especially the Torah, that defines the system. The Talmud is commentary on that definition.

[Mailech]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: So it is that since the system is good, if the text that defines the system seems evil, then you are looking at it wrong, since how can an evil text be the basis of a good system.

It can't. But it is the Tanakh, especially the Torah, that defines the system. The Talmud is commentary on that definition.

You are 100% correct. But Like you and John point out, Judaism is intensely legalistic, and so the Talmud has a huge bearing on our everyday actions. Furthermore, since in Jewish belief, the Oral Law and so the Talmud is intrinsic in understanding the Written one, the two of them together create the system that Judaism rests on. So you really cannot seperate one from the other.

I mean there are those who think the Judaism is an evil religion, but I know that you are not one of them cap'n

[cap'n queasy]

No, I don't think it is evil.

You're right about that.

[Duchifas]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: I have no misconception that today's Christian, of any denomination, is much different than the Christians of old.

Pro-Israel for Jews thinking Christians may resent that statement.

What do you mean?

[cap'n queasy]

I don't really like being lumped in with the Roman Catholic church, for example.

Most denominational Christians think they have replaced Israel.

You may have heard of replacement theology? Maybe not, but amillennial denominations believe that the promises of God to Israel are now going to them.

Except for us "pre-trib dispensationalists". Which is a view the other denominations generally hate with a passion.

[cap'n queasy]

It's one of the reasons we support Israel. We believe God makes a promise and sticks with it.

But I take no offense. :wink:

[Duchifas]

cap'n queasy wrote: It's one of the reasons we support Israel. We believe God makes a promise and sticks with it.

But I take no offense. :wink:

I just didn't know any better. :)

[psholtz]

Mailech wrote: psholtz wrote:
I think that's kinda the point of this thread. While "Christians" (<- using that word loosely) may have committed many dispicable acts, it's extremely difficult to find anything in the Christian Scriptures to justify such hatred and murder. So far as the Christian religion is concerned, these heretics are out on their own, operating outside any governing law by which their religion is organized.

The question arises whether this is same thing can be said of Judaism, and whether or not Judaism endorses and condones murder, rape, theft, slavery, etc, in its holy religious Scriptures.

But perhaps that should say something to you. Perhaps it is a fluke of history that the Christians where in power and the Jews where a subjugated class, so the Christians had the opportunity to oppress the Jews and not visa versa.
You mean where Jews were a subjagated class like in Soviet Russia?

You do know that Joseph Stalin (along w/ most of the other Soviet premiers) was Jewish, right?

Jews thrive on oppression, Mailech. You don't need me to tell you that. Assimilation is the rabbins' worst nightmare, not anti-semiticism.. and the best way to keep assimilation from happening is to keep the fires of anti-semiticism burning nice and hot and to keep laying (or trying to lay) guilt trips on Gentiles for things they may or may not be responsible for.. (<- but then again, that's not my idea, is it?)

Quote: Or perhaps there is something more in the Talmud and Jewish tradition that racism and ethnocentricity. Perhaps underlying the whole system is a structure that is moral and tollerant and also legalistic. Perhaps if everything is read from the proper context then you would know that Judaism is not a cruel religion and the Rabbis are not cruel egomaniacs.
Perhaps there is.

If so, let's hear it. That's the purpose to which this thread is dedicated.

We already saw Israel (the user, not the country) try to explain the "even the best Gentiles should be murdered" bit. He didn't do too hot. Perhaps you can do better?

Quote: That Christianity despite it being a religion of love has been quite the opposite for the vast majority of its history, is a testament to a flaw in its structure. The fact that Judaism and Jews have been peaceful and accepting and very socailly minded, is a testament to the structure of its system, despite what you might want to read into it.
Like I said, take a look at Soviet Russia if you want to see where the peace-loving, socially-minded Jews get you. Or take a look at what the Zionists do. Or take a look at what the Nazis did, which frankly (in many ways) is extremely difficult to distinguish from Zionism.

Let's take a closer look at three men who could perhaps be qualified as the three greatest mass murderers in history:

* Adolf Hilter (1/4 Jewish)
* Joseph Stalin (full Jewish)
* Henry Kissinger (full Jewish)

You see a pattern emerging here? I'll give you a hint: it's not Christian.

Which is not to say that there is no such thing as a Christian/Gentile mass murderer. Of course is. But the relative death toll that these three men inflicted, as compared w/ the relative proportion that Jews make up of the background population (something like 0.25% of the world's population, no?) is just collossally out of proportion.

Have Christians abused power in the past? Of course.. they're only human. Have Christians committed violence and atrocity in the past? Of course.. they're only human. And it's *wrong* that they do that. But this angle you're trying to take here of "Oh, the Christians are so violent and we Jews are just innocent lambs. The Christians spill so much blood and the Jews are innocent and have done nothing and we are simply love and peace" is nothing but self-aggrandizing vanity and B.S.. and it simply doesn't square w/ the historical record.

Jews have just as much historical blood on their hands as Christians do.

Go read the Old Testament (if nothing else will convince you).

[cap'n queasy]

Duchifas wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: It's one of the reasons we support Israel. We believe God makes a promise and sticks with it.

But I take no offense. :wink:

I just didn't know any better. :)

That's what I figured. I don't mind.

[cap'n queasy]

psholtz wrote: Mailech wrote: psholtz wrote:
I think that's kinda the point of this thread. While "Christians" (<- using that word loosely) may have committed many dispicable acts, it's extremely difficult to find anything in the Christian Scriptures to justify such hatred and murder. So far as the Christian religion is concerned, these heretics are out on their own, operating outside any governing law by which their religion is organized.

The question arises whether this is same thing can be said of Judaism, and whether or not Judaism endorses and condones murder, rape, theft, slavery, etc, in its holy religious Scriptures.

But perhaps that should say something to you. Perhaps it is a fluke of history that the Christians where in power and the Jews where a subjugated class, so the Christians had the opportunity to oppress the Jews and not visa versa.
You mean where Jews were a subjagated class like in Soviet Russia?

You do know that Joseph Stalin (along w/ most of the other Soviet premiers) was Jewish, right?

Jews thrive on oppression, Mailech. You don't need me to tell you that. Assimilation is the rabbins' worst nightmare, not anti-semiticism.. and the best way to keep assimilation from happening is to keep the fires of anti-semiticism burning nice and hot and to keep laying (or trying to lay) guilt trips on Gentiles for things they may or may not be responsible for.. (<- but then again, that's not my idea, is it?)

Quote: Or perhaps there is something more in the Talmud and Jewish tradition that racism and ethnocentricity. Perhaps underlying the whole system is a structure that is moral and tollerant and also legalistic. Perhaps if everything is read from the proper context then you would know that Judaism is not a cruel religion and the Rabbis are not cruel egomaniacs.
Perhaps there is.

If so, let's hear it. That's the purpose to which this thread is dedicated.

We already saw Israel (the user, not the country) try to explain the "even the best Gentiles should be murdered" bit. He didn't do too hot. Perhaps you can do better?

Quote: That Christianity despite it being a religion of love has been quite the opposite for the vast majority of its history, is a testament to a flaw in its structure. The fact that Judaism and Jews have been peaceful and accepting and very socailly minded, is a testament to the structure of its system, despite what you might want to read into it.
Like I said, take a look at Soviet Russia if you want to see where the peace-loving, socially-minded Jews get you. Or take a look at what the Zionists do. Or take a look at what the Nazis did, which frankly (in many ways) is extremely difficult to distinguish from Zionism.

Let's take a closer look at three men who could perhaps be qualified as the three greatest mass murderers in history:

* Adolf Hilter (1/4 Jewish)
* Joseph Stalin (full Jewish)
* Henry Kissinger (full Jewish)

You see a pattern emerging here? I'll give you a hint: it's not Christian.

Which is not to say that there is no such thing as a Christian/Gentile mass murderer. Of course is. But the relative death toll that these three men inflicted, as compared w/ the relative proportion that Jews make up of the background population (something like 0.25% of the world's population, no?) is just collossally out of proportion.

Have Christians abused power in the past? Of course.. they're only human. Have Christians committed violence and atrocity in the past? Of course.. they're only human. And it's *wrong* that they do that. But this angle you're trying to take here of "Oh, the Christians are so violent and we Jews are just innocent lambs. The Christians spill so much blood and the Jews are innocent and have done nothing and we are simply love and peace" is nothing but self-aggrandizing vanity and B.S.. and it simply doesn't square w/ the historical record.

Jews have just as much historical blood on their hands as Christians do.

Go read the Old Testament (if nothing else will convince you).

See what I mean?

[psholtz]

cap'n queasy wrote: It's one of the reasons we support Israel. We believe God makes a promise and sticks with it.
Then I guess you're not reading the Bible correctly.

God makes covenants, not "promises".. God will do thus and so if man does this and that. If man fails to do this and that, then God will refuse to do thus and so. The ultimate responsibility for proper exercise of Free Will still (and always) rests w/ man.

It's as simple as that.

[cap'n queasy]

OK, Dr. Mengele.

[John]

Duchifas wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: It's one of the reasons we support Israel. We believe God makes a promise and sticks with it.

But I take no offense. :wink:

I just didn't know any better. :)

Well, now you do. :-D

[Duchifas]

psholtz wrote: You do know that Joseph Stalin (along w/ most of the other Soviet premiers) was Jewish, right?

Take your pill, psholtz, take your pill.

[John]

Duchifas wrote: psholtz wrote: You do know that Joseph Stalin (along w/ most of the other Soviet premiers) was Jewish, right?

Take your pill, psholtz, take your pill.

:lol:

[psholtz]

Duchifas wrote: psholtz wrote: You do know that Joseph Stalin (along w/ most of the other Soviet premiers) was Jewish, right?

Take your pill, psholtz, take your pill.
Yep, that's right..

These comments (and those of cap'n) are precisely what I expected. Personal villification, (attempted) character assassination and name calling. Anything you can do to discredit the person speaking and cover up (or just ignore) the facts.

Keep it up! It reflects *real* well on you.. :tu:

[cap'n queasy]

Not quite as well as your little National Vanguard inspired history lesson reflects on you.