Political Crossfire Forums

[cap'n queasy]

psholtz wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: The whole tone of the NT is one of Free Will.. "Bad" things may befall those who ignore God in Revelations, but the reason can always be traced to an abuse of Free Will.. never to whether or not one was born into a Jewish bloodline.

You are ignoring the fact that the focus of the Great Tribulation happens to be Israel. This is the time of Jacob's trouble specifically because free will has been utilized in a "wrong" fashion. This goes for all people and not just Israel. Israel just simply happens to be "set aside" for a separate purpose.
Interesting point..

Can you cite chapter and verse to back that up?

Surely.

[psholtz]

wormwood wrote: Just the result it has. Like I've been saying, if you want to read about Christianity's murderous side, open a history book. The standard of "wickedness" becomes pretty clear, and the solution is equally clear. Why not look into manifest destiny? My point wasn't that Jude was terrible, but that the worth is in the perspective of the person doing the reading, from the perspective of the passages I found in 4 1/2 minutes, most of America is going to suffer an agonizing death that they deserve. To me this says, if you don't believe what I believe, you will suffer and die... how is that any less reprehensible than anything else?
I think that's kinda the point of this thread. While "Christians" (<- using that word loosely) may have committed many dispicable acts, it's extremely difficult to find anything in the Christian Scriptures to justify such hatred and murder. So far as the Christian religion is concerned, these heretics are out on their own, operating outside any governing law by which their religion is organized.

The question arises whether this is same thing can be said of Judaism, and whether or not Judaism endorses and condones murder, rape, theft, slavery, etc, in its holy religious Scriptures.

Quote: What is your standard for "unbiased"?
Christianity, Buddhism and Islam are universal religions. They are open to anyone who is willing to "believe" and obey the law and precepts of said faith. They do not (in principle, at least) exclude on the basis of race, nationality, tribal affiliation, etc.

Older religions, like Judiasm and Hinduism, are much more closed to outsiders and much more "tribal" in their orientation.

Quote: So, your story is, that God hid himself until Jesus was born, and Jesus who was a Jew, quoted Jewish scripture that was fake, and then he died and was not resurrected...this is your version of Christianity correct?
No, that's not even close to Christianity.

I have no idea where you drawing that from... It sounds like you've maybe been smoking some pretty bad ditch weed or something..

[psholtz]

cap'n queasy wrote: psholtz wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: The whole tone of the NT is one of Free Will.. "Bad" things may befall those who ignore God in Revelations, but the reason can always be traced to an abuse of Free Will.. never to whether or not one was born into a Jewish bloodline.

You are ignoring the fact that the focus of the Great Tribulation happens to be Israel. This is the time of Jacob's trouble specifically because free will has been utilized in a "wrong" fashion. This goes for all people and not just Israel. Israel just simply happens to be "set aside" for a separate purpose.
Interesting point..

Can you cite chapter and verse to back that up?

Surely.
Quote away, my friend.. :-D

[cap'n queasy]

psholtz wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: psholtz wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: The whole tone of the NT is one of Free Will.. "Bad" things may befall those who ignore God in Revelations, but the reason can always be traced to an abuse of Free Will.. never to whether or not one was born into a Jewish bloodline.

You are ignoring the fact that the focus of the Great Tribulation happens to be Israel. This is the time of Jacob's trouble specifically because free will has been utilized in a "wrong" fashion. This goes for all people and not just Israel. Israel just simply happens to be "set aside" for a separate purpose.
Interesting point..

Can you cite chapter and verse to back that up?

Surely.
Quote away, my friend.. :-D
I'm not going to do it in the Judaism forum, but if you would like to make a thread for once, I would be happy to dispel your misconceptions for you.

[wormwood]

Quote: I think that's kinda the point of this thread. While "Christians" (<- using that word loosely) may have committed many dispicable acts, it's extremely difficult to find anything in the Christian Scriptures to justify such hatred and murder. So far as the Christian religion is concerned, these heretics are out on their own, operating outside any governing law by which their religion is organized.

The question arises whether this is same thing can be said of Judaism, and whether or not Judaism endorses and condones murder, rape, theft, slavery, etc, in its holy religious Scriptures. In this case you should also look to history, or the ten commandments.

Quote: Christianity, Buddhism and Islam are universal religions. They are open to anyone who is willing to "believe" and obey the law and precepts of said faith. They do not (in principle, at least) exclude on the basis of race, nationality, tribal affiliation, etc.

Older religions, like Judiasm and Hinduism, are much more closed to outsiders and much more "tribal" in their orientation. Do you have any reason for thinking Jews are "more tribal"?

Quote: No, that's not even close to Christianity.

I have no idea where you drawing that from... It sounds like you've maybe been smoking some pretty bad ditch weed or something.. Ok, you WERE the person that said the Torah was folklore right?

Quote: Moreover, in answer to the point you raised, imho, the whole notion of a "Messiah" is a pipe dream (or perhaps far, far worse), and so no I don't regard it as anything more credible than folklore, and furthermore I don't regard it as especially relevant to the discussion at hand. Don't remember typing this? What have YOU been smoking? :lol:

[psholtz]

wormwood wrote: Quote: I think that's kinda the point of this thread. While "Christians" (<- using that word loosely) may have committed many dispicable acts, it's extremely difficult to find anything in the Christian Scriptures to justify such hatred and murder. So far as the Christian religion is concerned, these heretics are out on their own, operating outside any governing law by which their religion is organized.

The question arises whether this is same thing can be said of Judaism, and whether or not Judaism endorses and condones murder, rape, theft, slavery, etc, in its holy religious Scriptures. In this case you should also look to history, or the ten commandments.
Cluetrain! We've been talking Talmud, not Torah..

See Point #1 on this thread and try to work forward (checking the title of thread might help too). I'm not going to respond to dumb questions that can be answered by simply reading the thread for now on.

Quote: Quote: Christianity, Buddhism and Islam are universal religions. They are open to anyone who is willing to "believe" and obey the law and precepts of said faith. They do not (in principle, at least) exclude on the basis of race, nationality, tribal affiliation, etc.

Older religions, like Judiasm and Hinduism, are much more closed to outsiders and much more "tribal" in their orientation. Do you have any reason for thinking Jews are "more tribal"?
Judaism passes down through the mother. It stays w/in the family. That alone makes it quite tribal.

Quote: Quote: No, that's not even close to Christianity.

I have no idea where you drawing that from... It sounds like you've maybe been smoking some pretty bad ditch weed or something.. Ok, you WERE the person that said the Torah was folklore right?

Quote: Moreover, in answer to the point you raised, imho, the whole notion of a "Messiah" is a pipe dream (or perhaps far, far worse), and so no I don't regard it as anything more credible than folklore, and furthermore I don't regard it as especially relevant to the discussion at hand. Don't remember typing this? What have YOU been smoking?
I don't have the slightest idea what you're trying to get at..

I hasten to add, that your preconceptions of what both Christianity and Judaism are, are most likely woefully inaccurate.

[Duchifas]

pholtz wrote: Judaism passes down through the mother. It stays w/in the family. That alone makes it quite tribal.

Through mother or through conversion.

[psholtz]

Duchifas wrote: pholtz wrote: Judaism passes down through the mother. It stays w/in the family. That alone makes it quite tribal.

Through mother or through conversion.
Yes, "conversion" after first rejecting the prospective applicant at least three times, which serves even further to keep it tribal.

I find nothing wrong w/ that, btw.. but my point is simply that Judaism does not have the universal character or appeal of faiths like Christianity, Buddhism or Islam, for these very reasons.

[cap'n queasy]

Ah, so it's popularity that is the defining characteristic you look for.

[Duchifas]

psholtz wrote: Duchifas wrote: pholtz wrote: Judaism passes down through the mother. It stays w/in the family. That alone makes it quite tribal.

Through mother or through conversion.
Yes, "conversion" after first rejecting the prospective applicant at least three times, which serves even further to keep it tribal.

I see you've tried. :)

The purpose here is not to keep it tribal but to make sure that the prospective convert is serious. Judaism is not an *easy* thing, there are many obligations and many restrictions, and there ain't no way out once you are in. Therefore, the Rabbis want to make sure that the person knows what he is getting into before he undertakes this significant change in lifestyle.

Quote: I find nothing wrong w/ that, btw.. but my point is simply that Judaism does not have the universal character or appeal of faiths like Christianity, Buddhism or Islam, for these very reasons.

Judaism was the first one to declare, through monotheism, that there is one G-d, who is the one and only source of values and truth. Thus, Judaism was and is the essence of universality. Whether true monotheism and everything it entails are appealing is a different question altogether, and yes I agree, it isn't as appealing as other versions.

[wormwood]

Quote: Cluetrain! We've been talking Talmud, not Torah.. Listen to anyone else on this thread...there can be no Talmud with the Torah, just like there can be no NT without it. Are ye daft man? You were asking questions about what Jews believe, but you won't listen to any answers that don't agree with your misconceptions. Good luck with that, I am not sure what you wish to accomplish.



Quote: See Point #1 on this thread and try to work forward (checking the title of thread might help too). OMG...congrats...you actually made a reference to the first post that was somewhat correct or relevant...I knew you would get it eventually :lol:

Quote: I don't have the slightest idea what you're trying to get at.. You are daft then.... you typed what I quoted...that the Messiah was a pipe-dream, the Torah is folklore. Now you are acting like you didn't say that? Maybe it is you that should read back over the thread, chief.

Quote: I hasten to add, that your preconceptions of what both Christianity and Judaism are, are most likely woefully inaccurate. Perhaps, but then again, I am not the one at odds with most of the people on this thread 8:)

[psholtz]

cap'n queasy wrote: Ah, so it's popularity that is the defining characteristic you look for.
Not in the least..

As you know, democracy is not something I'm especially fond of..

[psholtz]

Duchifas wrote: The purpose here is not to keep it tribal but to make sure that the prospective convert is serious. Judaism is not an *easy* thing, there are many obligations and many restrictions, and there ain't no way out once you are in. Therefore, the Rabbis want to make sure that the person knows what he is getting into before he undertakes this significant change in lifestyle.
The *purpose* may not be to keep it tribal, but end result is that it is.

And like I said, I see nothing wrong w/ that. In fact, in many ways its quite honorable (imho). Keeps the message from getting watered down and confused, as has happened in Christianity. My point is simply that Judaism doesn't have the universal appeal that Christiantiy, b/c of the way it's structured.

Quote: Judaism was the first one to declare, through monotheism, that there is one G-d, who is the one and only source of values and truth. Thus, Judaism was and is the essence of universality. Whether true monotheism and everything it entails are appealing is a different question altogether, and yes I agree, it isn't as appealing as other versions.
Well, there you're wrong. Judaism can in no way be thought to be the first "monotheistic" religion. The Egyptians were practicing monotheism long before the Hebrews ever arrived, and monotheism was practiced in Hindu India as early as 7,000 years ago .. before the world was even created according to your calendar.

A quote I'm going to use, b/c I have it handy for debate against Christians, is from Cicero, someone who's generally regarded as "pagan" polytheist by most "Christians". In fact, it's the most concise statement that has ever been given (imho) on monotheism.

Quote: The true law, is right reason, conformable to the nature of things, constant, eternal, diffused through all, which calls us to duty by commanding, deters us from sin by forbidding; which never loses its influence with the good, nor ever preserves it with the wicked. This law cannot be over- ruled by any other, nor abrogated in whole or in part; nor can we be absolved from it either by the senate or by the people; nor are we to seek any other comment or interpreter of it but himself; nor can there be one law at Rome and another at Athens; one now and another hereafter; but the same eternal immutable law comprehends all nations at all times, under one common master and governor of all -- GOD. He is the inventor, propounder, enactor of this law; and whoever will not obey it must first renounce himself, and throw off the nature of man; by doing which, he will suffer the greatest punishments though he should escape all the other torments which are commonly believed to be prepared for the wicked.

-- Cicero

Look, he even uses the word Law, just like a good Jew! :-D

I realize this is more Christian debate fodder than Jewish debate fodder (Cicero being a citizen of "pagan" Rome and anterior to the Christian era), but you can find similar quotes from prominent Egyptians and Hindus in the relevant (i.e., pre-Judaic) time frames, if you search hard enough.

Certainly, the Jews were not the first to come up w/ monotheism.

[wormwood]

What was the name of the "one god" in the coptic tradition?

[psholtz]

wormwood wrote: What was the name of the "one god" in the coptic tradition?
When I said the Eygptians practiced monotheism, and that he could find quotes to that effect if he tries looking, I had in mind the 3000 BC time frame (or round abouts there).

What time frame do you have in mind?

[Duchifas]

psholtz wrote: Duchifas wrote: The purpose here is not to keep it tribal but to make sure that the prospective convert is serious. Judaism is not an *easy* thing, there are many obligations and many restrictions, and there ain't no way out once you are in. Therefore, the Rabbis want to make sure that the person knows what he is getting into before he undertakes this significant change in lifestyle.
The *purpose* may not be to keep it tribal, but end result is that it is.

And like I said, I see nothing wrong w/ that. In fact, in many ways its quite honorable (imho). Keeps the message from getting watered down and confused, as has happened in Christianity. My point is simply that Judaism doesn't have the universal appeal that Christiantiy, b/c of the way it's structured.

Ok.

Quote: Quote: Judaism was the first one to declare, through monotheism, that there is one G-d, who is the one and only source of values and truth. Thus, Judaism was and is the essence of universality. Whether true monotheism and everything it entails are appealing is a different question altogether, and yes I agree, it isn't as appealing as other versions.
Well, there you're wrong. Judaism can in no way be thought to be the first "monotheistic" religion. The Egyptians were practicing monotheism long before the Hebrews ever arrived, and monotheism was practiced in Hindu India as early as 7,000 years ago .. before the world was even created according to your calendar.

A quote I'm going to use, b/c I have it handy for debate against Christians, is from Cicero, someone who's generally regarded as "pagan" polytheist by most "Christians". In fact, it's the most concise statement that has ever been given (imho) on monotheism.

Quote: The true law, is right reason, conformable to the nature of things, constant, eternal, diffused through all, which calls us to duty by commanding, deters us from sin by forbidding; which never loses its influence with the good, nor ever preserves it with the wicked. This law cannot be over- ruled by any other, nor abrogated in whole or in part; nor can we be absolved from it either by the senate or by the people; nor are we to seek any other comment or interpreter of it but himself; nor can there be one law at Rome and another at Athens; one now and another hereafter; but the same eternal immutable law comprehends all nations at all times, under one common master and governor of all -- GOD. He is the inventor, propounder, enactor of this law; and whoever will not obey it must first renounce himself, and throw off the nature of man; by doing which, he will suffer the greatest punishments though he should escape all the other torments which are commonly believed to be prepared for the wicked.

-- Cicero

Look, he even uses the word Law, just like a good Jew! :-D

I realize this is more Christian debate fodder than Jewish debate fodder (Cicero being a citizen of "pagan" Rome and anterior to the Christian era), but you can find similar quotes from prominent Egyptians and Hindus in the relevant (i.e., pre-Judaic) time frames, if you search hard enough.

Certainly, the Jews were not the first to come up w/ monotheism.

Ok, I am going to have to agree with *some* of what you said. I didn't phrase myself correctly. Clearly there was monotheism before Judaism, as Adam, Noah, etc clearly understood that there was only one unqiue G-d. With time, that notion got watered down into worldwide idolatry. Not to say that idolatry was a stupid concept, it is just a way to get to G-d through representations/agents. In a way, it is a way to relate a unique, incomprehensible being into human terms. Which is appealing, but wrong.

Anyway, I guess, it would be more accurate to say that Abraham reintroduced monotheism into the world, and subsequently his followers became the main advocates of the concept.

Better? :)

[cap'n queasy]

wormwood wrote: What was the name of the "one god" in the coptic tradition?

Coptic
http://www.coptic.net/EncyclopediaCoptica/

Egyptian monotheism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhenaton

[psholtz]

Duchifas wrote: Anyway, I guess, it would be more accurate to say that Abraham reintroduced monotheism into the world, and subsequently his followers became the main advocates of the concept.

Better? :)
Yep, that sounds good to me! :-D

[wormwood]

Quote: Coptic
http://www.coptic.net/EncyclopediaCoptica/

Egyptian monotheism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akhenaton Coptic is the name of the Egyptian language. I was just looking for the Egyptian word so I could look up it's meaning... I see that it means "the sun".

[Mailech]

psholtz wrote:
I think that's kinda the point of this thread. While "Christians" (<- using that word loosely) may have committed many dispicable acts, it's extremely difficult to find anything in the Christian Scriptures to justify such hatred and murder. So far as the Christian religion is concerned, these heretics are out on their own, operating outside any governing law by which their religion is organized.

The question arises whether this is same thing can be said of Judaism, and whether or not Judaism endorses and condones murder, rape, theft, slavery, etc, in its holy religious Scriptures.

But perhaps that should say something to you. Perhaps it is a fluke of history that the Christians where in power and the Jews where a subjugated class, so the Christians had the opportunity to oppress the Jews and not visa versa.
Or perhaps there is something more in the Talmud and Jewish tradition that racism and ethnocentricity. Perhaps underlying the whole system is a structure that is moral and tollerant and also legalistic. Perhaps if everything is read from the proper context then you would know that Judaism is not a cruel religion and the Rabbis are not cruel egomaniacs.

That Christianity despite it being a religion of love has been quite the opposite for the vast majority of its history, is a testament to a flaw in its structure. The fact that Judaism and Jews have been peaceful and accepting and very socailly minded, is a testament to the structure of its system, despite what you might want to read into it.