Political Crossfire Forums

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

The main point of scripture is that God rightfully rules over all Creation and we do not understand His wisdom.

In this Judaism and Christianity certainly agree.

Quote: Is this an example of the kind of *knowledge* that we must possess before we can read and understand the Talmud?

Yes, this is an example of such. At least get some background info so you can begin to make sense of it. You can't just take passages out of context and say it means this or that.

The entire text must be taken holistically.

Quote: Re 10:9 -
So I went to the angel, telling him to give me the little book. And he said to me, "Take it and eat it; it will make your stomach bitter, but in your mouth it will be sweet as honey."

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23467 Location: California

Israel wrote: psholtz wrote: Am I applying Talmudic knowledge correctly in my decision-making process?
No, you're not.
You're welcome to continue clarifying, if this is possible..

Zeeman · Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 1:02 pm Post subject:

IMHMO

The Torah is the word of God and teaching as it came down to Prophet Moses.The Talmud however is the tradition that ever since was orated from generation to generation and then written down by Rabbi's..

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Are you Muslim, Zeeman? I see you list your country as Bahrain. Just curious, as this would seem to be an unusual opinion to be held by a Muslim, to me.

Not saying it's not a possibility, mind you, just curious as to why.

Zeeman · Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 4:17 pm Post subject:

cap'n queasy wrote: Are you Muslim, Zeeman? I see you list your country as Bahrain. Just curious, as this would seem to be an unusual opinion to be held by a Muslim, to me.

Not saying it's not a possibility, mind you, just curious as to why.

Yup I am a muslim..

Why would my opinion be unusual though??

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Well, I aften hear that the scripture has been altered by Jews and Christians without any actual support of this theory.

I suppose I would say that the level of sophistication shown by this thought is greater than what I usually encounter.

Zeeman · Posted: Mon Jan 09, 2006 4:28 pm Post subject:

cap'n queasy wrote: Well, I aften hear that the scripture has been altered by Jews and Christians without any actual support of this theory.

I suppose I would say that the level of sophistication shown by this thought is greater than what I usually encounter.

Well part of that could have been due to different translations over and over again..I mean there must be alot of things lost due to these translations.

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Zeeman wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Well, I aften hear that the scripture has been altered by Jews and Christians without any actual support of this theory.

I suppose I would say that the level of sophistication shown by this thought is greater than what I usually encounter.

Well part of that could have been due to different translations over and over again..I mean there must be alot of things lost due to these translations.
Well, I agree somewhat with this.

But the translations from the source documents we have now are the best that ever existed. We know more about the scriptures today than ever before. I see it as more of a problem with the modern mindset and paradigm not being compatible with the mindset of the ancients. We just don't understand the concepts they used to explain things. It doesn't compute in the modern mind. Moderns might as well be reading binary code, unless you understand this language it is nothing but a bunch of 1's and 0's.

It is our task to learn this language and spread the Good News that has been proclaimed from the Beginning.

Quote: Ge 3:15 -
And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel."

The Messianic revelation begins here.

programmusic · Joined: 22 Apr 2006 Posts: 928

http://talmud.faithweb.com/

for clarification

wormwood · Joined: 25 Sep 2005 Posts: 2373 Location: The P-Brane

Quote: Like I said before, let's leave the Tanakh, which is little more than Jewish folklore, out of this debate.. If you include it, it's impossible to distinguish between what's Judaism and what's Christianity. If you believe this, then the prophecy and foundation of the messiah is little more than folklore. 8:)

Quote: So the challenge is to find offensive verses in the Christian NT.. So far we haven't found any.. If you ask a backward question you need a backward answer...look in revelations 8:) (Hint: see if anything bad happens or is supposed to happen to any non-christians) Also... as far as I'm concerned, it is much better to write about killing the "impious", than actually killing them as certain "peaceful" messiah oriented religions have done...not name any names :lol:

Silkheat:
Quote: In Speher Or Israel (177b) it says:
"Take the life of the Kliphoth and kill them, and you will please God the same as one who offers incense to Him."
:lol: Do you know what the "kliphoth" (klippoth) are?

Quote: n Zohar (I, 28b, and 39a) it says:
"In the palaces of the fourth heaven are those who lamented over Sion and Jerusalem, and all those who destroyed idolatrous nations...and those who killed off people who worship idols are clothed in purple garments so that they may be recognized and honored." First of all, kudos on the Zohar quote :lol: . One thing you should know is that the Zohar is a commentary on the Talmud. It is a commentary on a commentary. The events in the Zohar are not real, and almost nothing is meant in the physical sense in which it is written. Mystics used (to a lesser extent) the Talmud, (and to a greater extent the Zohar) as a means for concealing arcane information. Most "death" in the Zohar is a spiritual death...once you understand the abyss and the shards of light from the creation, then you will know what I mean :wink: .

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23467 Location: California

wormwood wrote: Quote: Like I said before, let's leave the Tanakh, which is little more than Jewish folklore, out of this debate.. If you include it, it's impossible to distinguish between what's Judaism and what's Christianity. If you believe this, then the prophecy and foundation of the messiah is little more than folklore.
No, the point is that the Jews and the Christians share the Tanakh, and what we're looking for is those things that are unique to either community, and which simultaneously condemn the other.

The Tanakh cannot be used in such a discussion, for obvious reasons..

It's easier to base Jewish beliefs off the Talmud, and Christian beliefs off the NT for the purposes of this discussion.. the contention that's been made is that the Christian Scriptures are "just as" offensive as the Talmud is. I'm waiting to see chapter and verse out of the NT that justifies such a contention. Moreover, in answer to the point you raised, imho, the whole notion of a "Messiah" is a pipe dream (or perhaps far, far worse), and so no I don't regard it as anything more credible than folklore, and furthermore I don't regard it as especially relevant to the discussion at hand.

Quote: Quote: So the challenge is to find offensive verses in the Christian NT.. So far we haven't found any.. If you ask a backward question you need a backward answer...look in revelations 8:) (Hint: see if anything bad happens or is supposed to happen to any non-christians) Also... as far as I'm concerned, it is much better to write about killing the "impious", than actually killing them as certain "peaceful" messiah oriented religions have done...not name any names
Like I said, cite chapter and verse and perhaps we can have a reasonably intelligent discussion.

wormwood · Joined: 25 Sep 2005 Posts: 2373 Location: The P-Brane

Ok maybe we can speed this up if you tell me what books you are familiar with, or skim revelations for phrases like "and there will be gnashing of teeth" :lol: .

Your standards seem biased. You discount the torah which in one step eliminates the true essence of Hebrew tradition, and wipes the slate clean for Christians, but I can somewhat understand your reasoning so try Jude 15-16 where grumblers and complainers along with the ungodly are to receive punishment. Rev 2:16 , 2:23
2:26-27, Rev 6 pretty much from there on out...read that and tell me what you think...this is what I found in about 4 1/2 minutes.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23467 Location: California

wormwood wrote: Your standards seem biased. You discount the torah which in one step eliminates the true essence of Hebrew tradition, and wipes the slate clean for Christians, but I can somewhat understand your reasoning so try Jude 15-16 where grumblers and complainers along with the ungodly are to receive punishment. Rev 2:16 , 2:23
2:26-27, Rev 6 pretty much from there on out...read that and tell me what you think...this is what I found in about 4 1/2 minutes.
Remember, when we say we are looking for "offensive" literature in the NT, we mean that we are looking for something blatantly racist or discriminatory. It's already been commented on in this thread that Jesus' comment of "I was before Abraham" could counted as being "offensive". Such a notion is, of course, utterly absurd. The comment given by Jesus here is simply one of (allegorical) religious doctrine, and can in no way be interpreted as being "racist" or "discriminatory" in nature.

I find most of your citations to be of a similar nature.. You find Jude 15-16 to be racist and discriminatory? Convicting evil doers of their evil deeds? You find this to be offensive, in a religious text, no less? There was a day and an age when such comments (Jude 15-16) passed among the people as common sense. I'm somewhat shocked (but perhaps not surprised) that you would take these verses to be "racist" in character.

The full verses themselves, so everyone can see, are:

Quote: To judge everyone, and to convict the ungodly of all the ungodly deeds they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him. These men are grumblers and fault-finders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.

-- Jude 15-16
Like I said, in a more enlightened day and age, this passed for good advice and common sense, not for racism.

Continuing on to Revelations:

* Rev 2:16 is a condemnation of sexual immorality and idolatry
* Rev 2:23 is a condemnation of sexual immorality, idolatry and prostitution
* Rev 2:26 ("To him who overcomes and does my Will to the end, I give authority over the nations") is an admonishment to keep the faith even through the darkest tribulations
* Rev 6 is the famous allegory of the Four Horsemen, which in fact is a symbolic description of the (inevitable and unerring) operation of God's Divine Law whereby the Wheat is separated from the Chaff at Harvest Time. Tough to swallow, perhaps, more esp if you're part of the Chaff, but again I find nothing racist in it.

The whole tone of the NT is one of Free Will.. "Bad" things may befall those who ignore God in Revelations, but the reason can always be traced to an abuse of Free Will.. never to whether or not one was born into a Jewish bloodline.

wormwood · Joined: 25 Sep 2005 Posts: 2373 Location: The P-Brane

Quote: Remember, when we say we are looking for "offensive" literature in the NT, we mean that we are looking for something blatantly racist or discriminatory. It's already been commented on in this thread that Jesus' comment of "I was before Abraham" could counted as being "offensive". Such a notion is, of course, utterly absurd. The comment given by Jesus here is simply one of (allegorical) religious doctrine, and can in no way be interpreted as being "racist" or "discriminatory" in nature.

I find most of your citations to be of a similar nature.. You find Jude 15-16 to be racist and discriminatory? Convicting evil doers of their evil deeds? You find this to be offensive, in a religious text, no less? There was a day and an age when such comments (Jude 15-16) passed among the people as common sense. I'm somewhat shocked (but perhaps not surprised) that you would take these verses to be "racist" in character. Well offensive is a relative term, and I was not aware this was a biblical racism discussion. Also, there might have been a day where that was good advice, but today it seems to inspire judgment and it is reminiscent of Eurocentricism considering the terms for determining wickedness include not accepting the Messiah as they tell you to, or obeying the rituals derived from Catholicism and similar religions. It may not be racist, but it is culturally biased in the same way as Jews saying the same thing should happen to people that don't follow their faith. You wanted a comparison of what was provided, and I did not see racism as much as I see cultural bias. If you think the Jews are racist, does that mean the Jews of Ethiopia hate themselves? :wink:

They are the same...they revolve around the same God. What is the difference in saying non-christians will be punished, and saying non jews will be punished? Could it be because they are both referring to the wicked, using different terminology? There was no specific nation of Christians, and so they had no enemies for God to crush using Christianity. Judaism in the Torah was a living religion...some rules were only good until the next prophet changed them, but since we aren't allowed to talk of the Torah, you should know that the Talmud is a commentary, and an extrapolation of the Torah making it difficult to discuss in the context of this conversation.

Also, you did not answer my question about the klippoth 8:)

Duchifas · Joined: 22 Jun 2004 Posts: 9950

Two things to keep in mind:

1) While there is an ethnic component to the Jewish people, Jews have always, from the very beginning, accepted converts into the Jewish people.

2) On a related note, about 1/3 of the Sages of the Talmud were either converts, or descendants of converts to Judaism. Among the most notable -- Rabbi Akiva and Rabbi Meir.

psholtz, you may now return to telling us about how the Talmud offends your fragile sensibilities.

wormwood · Joined: 25 Sep 2005 Posts: 2373 Location: The P-Brane

Quote: Two things to keep in mind:

1) While there is an ethnic component to the Jewish people, Jews have always, from the very beginning, accepted converts into the Jewish people.

2) On a related note, about 1/3 of the Sages of the Talmud were either converts, or descendants of converts to Judaism. Among the most notable -- Rabbi Akiva and Rabbi Meir.

psholtz, you may now return to telling us about how the Talmud offends your fragile sensibilities. :lol:

So what you are saying is that it wasn't the Semitic race, it was the Jewish religion which was the cause of bias against the unclean or the unholy. There was most certainly a time when Christianity not only shared the sentiment, but they acted on it. Not to unfairly cast the Christians in bad light, I am merely demonstrating that it works both ways and you can't forsake actual atrocities to talk about written ones. Shalom.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23467 Location: California

wormwood wrote: Well offensive is a relative term, and I was not aware this was a biblical racism discussion.
It might help if you scroll back up to Post #1 and clue yourself into the purpose of this thread.

Quote: Also, there might have been a day where that was good advice, but today it seems to inspire judgment and it is reminiscent of Eurocentricism considering the terms for determining wickedness include not accepting the Messiah as they tell you to, or obeying the rituals derived from Catholicism and similar religions.
Jude 15-16 seems Eurocentric, Catholic and Messianic to you? :lol:

Quote: It may not be racist, but it is culturally biased in the same way as Jews saying the same thing should happen to people that don't follow their faith. You wanted a comparison of what was provided, and I did not see racism as much as I see cultural bias. If you think the Jews are racist, does that mean the Jews of Ethiopia hate themselves?
I would say that Christianity, Buddhism and Islam are probably the three most universal, culturally unbiased religions in the world (perhaps in that order). Moreover, considering that the texts of which we're speaking (the Christian NT) was written (mostly) in the Middle East, I'm not certain where you're pulling a Eurocentric bias out of it.

But then again, that's not even remotely related to the thread topic, is it?

Quote: They are the same...they revolve around the same God.
It's not even remotely clear to me that Christians and Jews worship the "same" God.

I think this is one area where most Jews would certainly agree w/ me.

Quote: What is the difference in saying non-christians will be punished, and saying non jews will be punished?
Again, clue yourself into the thread topic. We're not talking about punishment in the afterlife.. We're talking about verses in the Talmud that advocate the murder, rape and enslavement of Gentiles.

Quote: Also, you did not answer my question about the klippoth
You never asked me any questions about klippoth, Einstein..

You asked that question to Silkheat.. :bnghd:

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: The whole tone of the NT is one of Free Will.. "Bad" things may befall those who ignore God in Revelations, but the reason can always be traced to an abuse of Free Will.. never to whether or not one was born into a Jewish bloodline.

You are ignoring the fact that the focus of the Great Tribulation happens to be Israel. This is the time of Jacob's trouble specifically because free will has been utilized in a "wrong" fashion. This goes for all people and not just Israel. Israel just simply happens to be "set aside" for a separate purpose.

Quote: 3:2 - "You only have I chosen among all the families of the earth; Therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities."

The idea that Israel was "chosen" simply to be the recipient of unmerited benevolence is one that defies the words of the scripture and history. it is an obtuse conclusion, in other words.

psholtz · Joined: 15 Feb 2004 Posts: 23467 Location: California

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: The whole tone of the NT is one of Free Will.. "Bad" things may befall those who ignore God in Revelations, but the reason can always be traced to an abuse of Free Will.. never to whether or not one was born into a Jewish bloodline.

You are ignoring the fact that the focus of the Great Tribulation happens to be Israel. This is the time of Jacob's trouble specifically because free will has been utilized in a "wrong" fashion. This goes for all people and not just Israel. Israel just simply happens to be "set aside" for a separate purpose.
Interesting point..

Can you cite chapter and verse to back that up?

wormwood · Joined: 25 Sep 2005 Posts: 2373 Location: The P-Brane

Quote: It might help if you scroll back up to Post #1 and clue yourself into the purpose of this thread.
OK
Quote: I have a question to the Jewish members of this board. How strong is your beleif in the Talmud's teachings? Does the Jewish community use this book to guide their society along with the Torah And that demonstrates what exactly "Einstein"? :lol:

Quote: Jude 15-16 seems Eurocentric, Catholic and Messianic to you? Just the result it has. Like I've been saying, if you want to read about Christianity's murderous side, open a history book. The standard of "wickedness" becomes pretty clear, and the solution is equally clear. Why not look into manifest destiny? My point wasn't that Jude was terrible, but that the worth is in the perspective of the person doing the reading, from the perspective of the passages I found in 4 1/2 minutes, most of America is going to suffer an agonizing death that they deserve. To me this says, if you don't believe what I believe, you will suffer and die... how is that any less reprehensible than anything else?

Quote: I would say that Christianity, Buddhism and Islam are probably the three most universal, culturally unbiased religions in the world (perhaps in that order). :lol: That's a joke right? Tell that one to the people that USED to live in the western hemisphere...oh wait...

What is your standard for "unbiased"?
Simply taking people of other cultures into your religion? Spreading across the globe? Perhaps a genocide or two?

Quote: It's not even remotely clear to me that Christians and Jews worship the "same" God.

I think this is one area where most Jews would certainly agree w/ me. :lol: Tell that to Jews for Jesus.
So, your story is, that God hid himself until Jesus was born, and Jesus who was a Jew, quoted Jewish scripture that was fake, and then he died and was not resurrected...this is your version of Christianity correct?

Quote: Again, clue yourself into the thread topic. We're not talking about punishment in the afterlife.. We're talking about verses in the Talmud that advocate the murder, rape and enslavement of Gentiles. I think I would check that first post again :wink: . Also, I saw nothing in the NT verses that suggests it is talking about the afterlife.

Quote: You never asked me any questions about klippoth, Einstein.. Ah, all your pleonasm starts to sound the same :lol: . My mistake.