Political Crossfire Forums

[cap'n queasy]

Israel wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: But as you want NT things, you would also find many Jews that find John 8:58 to be quite... well, you get the point.

Babylon feels that way about Messiah.
No, we don't. Well, at least you recognize you are part of Babylon.

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: Psalms 89:38-52 - 38 But You have cast off and rejected, You have been full of wrath against Your anointed. 39 You have spurned the covenant of Your servant; You have profaned his crown in the dust. 40 You have broken down all his walls; You have brought his strongholds to ruin. 41 All who pass along the way plunder him; He has become a reproach to his neighbors. 42 You have exalted the right hand of his adversaries; You have made all his enemies rejoice. 43 You also turn back the edge of his sword And have not made him stand in battle. 44 You have made his splendor to cease And cast his throne to the ground. 45 You have shortened the days of his youth; You have covered him with shame. Selah. 46 How long, O LORD? Will You hide Yourself forever? Will Your wrath burn like fire? 47 Remember what my span of life is; For what vanity You have created all the sons of men! 48 What man can live and not see death? Can he deliver his soul from the power of Sheol? Selah. 49 Where are Your former lovingkindnesses, O Lord, Which You swore to David in Your faithfulness? 50 Remember, O Lord, the reproach of Your servants; How I bear in my bosom the reproach of all the many peoples, 51 With which Your enemies have reproached, O LORD, With which they have reproached the footsteps of Your anointed. 52 Blessed be the LORD forever! Amen and Amen.
Quote: What makes you think this refers to the Messiach???

What makes you think it doesn't?

Seems pretty clear that this is about the rejection of the Anointed One.

[psholtz]

cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: If you include it, it's impossible to distinguish between what's Judaism and what's Christianity.

It impossible to understand Christianity without it. It is intrinsic to the Christian Faith.

Christianity is not a reaction against Judaism.
The point of this thread is that there are alleged offensive verses in the Talmud. The challenge is that find similarly offensive verses in the Christian Scriptures, since some have alleged that exactly the same things can be found in the Christian scriptures.

Given this problem, as it's stated, the domain of what we consider to be "Christian" scripture must be restricted to the New Testament, since this is the only part of the Christian cannon that we know is completely free from Talmudic influence .. otherwise, this thread has no purpose and your comments are completely uninformative.

[cap'n queasy]

psholtz wrote: Here are some interesting references:

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/talmud1.htm
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/talmud2.htm

I guess the task would be:

(a) verify that the Talmud really says these things;
(b) verify that exactly the same things can be found in the Christian NT (as some have suggested)..

Don't forget

C) Have some knowledge about exactly what they are talking about.

[cap'n queasy]

psholtz wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: If you include it, it's impossible to distinguish between what's Judaism and what's Christianity.

It impossible to understand Christianity without it. It is intrinsic to the Christian Faith.

Christianity is not a reaction against Judaism.
The point of this thread is that there are alleged offensive verses in the Talmud. The challenge is that find similarly offensive verses in the Christian Scriptures, since some have alleged that exactly the same things can be found in the Christian scriptures.

Given this problem, as it's stated, the domain of what we consider to be "Christian" scripture must be restricted to the New Testament, since this is the only part of the Christian cannon that we know is completely free from Talmudic influence .. otherwise, this thread has no purpose and your comments are completely uninformative.


It is impossible not to include the Tanahk with Scripture. There is no such thing as "Christian" scripture.

It is Scripture.

Designations such as Jew, Christian, or Muslim do not alter this because they are largely meaningless.

Scripture is scripture. The problem lies in interpretation and the following of mistaken commentary in place of scripture.

[psholtz]

cap'n queasy wrote: psholtz wrote: Here are some interesting references:

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/talmud1.htm
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/talmud2.htm

I guess the task would be:

(a) verify that the Talmud really says these things;
(b) verify that exactly the same things can be found in the Christian NT (as some have suggested)..

Don't forget

C) Have some knowledge about exactly what they are talking about.
Perhaps, but then part of the question becomes why does one even require such knowledge? Why should the verses be written in such an ambiguous manner that you might be able to read them in two ways: (a) kill and rape goyim; or (b) well, that's just a metaphor that means *something else* if you have the correct *knowledge*..

Again, the Christian scriptures do not have this ambiguity at all.. Perhaps there are levels of understanding and knowledge in there as well, but there's no ambiguity as to the fact that the general message is one of peace and love.

[psholtz]

cap'n queasy wrote: psholtz wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Quote: If you include it, it's impossible to distinguish between what's Judaism and what's Christianity.

It impossible to understand Christianity without it. It is intrinsic to the Christian Faith.

Christianity is not a reaction against Judaism.
The point of this thread is that there are alleged offensive verses in the Talmud. The challenge is that find similarly offensive verses in the Christian Scriptures, since some have alleged that exactly the same things can be found in the Christian scriptures.

Given this problem, as it's stated, the domain of what we consider to be "Christian" scripture must be restricted to the New Testament, since this is the only part of the Christian cannon that we know is completely free from Talmudic influence .. otherwise, this thread has no purpose and your comments are completely uninformative.


It is impossible not to include the Tanahk with Scripture. There is no such thing as "Christian" scripture.

It is Scripture.

Designations such as Jew, Christian, or Muslim do not alter this because they are largely meaningless.

Scripture is scripture. The problem lies in interpretation and the following of mistaken commentary in place of scripture.
That's fine.. you're welcome to hold whatever strange and bizarre beliefs you choose.

The point is, for the purposes of this debate, we are to compare the Babylonian Talmud against the Christian New Testament, and see if exactly the same offensive verses from the Talmud are replicated, in any way, shape or form, in the Christian New Testament.

[Israel]

Silkheat wrote: From the Talmud

In Abhodah Zarah (26b, Tosephoth) it says:
"Even the best of the Goim should be killed"

The Schulchan Arukh, after the words of Iore Dea (158, 1) that those of the Akum who do no harm to Jews are not to be killed, namely those who do not wage war against Israel, thus explains the word Milchamah - war:
"But in time of war the Akum are to be killed, for it is written: 'The good among the Akum deserve to be killed, etc.'"

In Speher Or Israel (177b) it says:
"Take the life of the Kliphoth and kill them, and you will please God the same as one who offers incense to Him."

And in Ialkut Simoni (245c. n. 772) it says:
"Everyone who sheds the blood of the impious is as acceptable to God as he who offers a sacrifice to God."

n Zohar (I, 28b, and 39a) it says:
"In the palaces of the fourth heaven are those who lamented over Sion and Jerusalem, and all those who destroyed idolatrous nations...and those who killed off people who worship idols are clothed in purple garments so that they may be recognized and honored."

"The life of a Goi and all his physical powers belong to a Jew." (A. Rohl. Die Polem. p.20)

I should have made myself clearer, I have serious doubts that you've NEVER read anything from the Talmud from any credible website. What you're doing posting these parts of quotations is equivalent to me going to www.g-dhatesfags.com to learn what the bible says about homosexuality.


Quote: "The life of a Goi and all his physical powers belong to a Jew." (A. Rohl. Die Polem. p.20)
Clearly, you have little knowledge that even Jews were called Goy, Exodus 19:6.

There are plenty of examples of the Jewish nation being referred to as a Goy and there are plenty of examples of gentile nations being referred to as Goy. So, your entire point is mute.

Quote: n Zohar (I, 28b, and 39a) it says:
"In the palaces of the fourth heaven are those who lamented over Sion and Jerusalem, and all those who destroyed idolatrous nations...and those who killed off people who worship idols are clothed in purple garments so that they may be recognized and honored."
If read within the context of Deut 13:2-6 it makes perfect sense.

Quote: And in Ialkut Simoni (245c. n. 772) it says:
"Everyone who sheds the blood of the impious is as acceptable to God as he who offers a sacrifice to God."
Serious question, have you read the surrounding text?

Quote: In Abhodah Zarah (26b, Tosephoth) it says:
"Even the best of the Goim should be killed"
As I said, the word goy is applied to the Children of Israel and other nations. So without proper studying and actually opening the text, you would never know.

Quote: The Schulchan Arukh, after the words of Iore Dea (158, 1) that those of the Akum who do no harm to Jews are not to be killed, namely those who do not wage war against Israel, thus explains the word Milchamah - war:" But in time of war the Akum are to be killed, for it is written: 'The good among the Akum deserve to be killed, etc.'"

You're proving my point about the fact that you've never read the talmud.

Furthermore, to put something into context for you...

This is what your garbage of a website does to the Talmud. They glance through it, see something like, "R. Shimon ben Yochai taught: Kill [even] the good among the gentiles."

Now instead of putting it into context, they wave it around as proof of something. Had they actually studied it, they would know that this talks about the animals that drove the chariots. If you've read Exodus 14, which I have my doubts about, you'll realize that pharoph goes after the Jews w/ 600 chariots. Whose animals are these???

They are not the Jews, 10:26
They are not pharophs, 9:3
They are not from egypt, 9:6

So where are the animals from? They are from the righteous Egyptians who were also G-d fearing. So what did they do??? They allowed their animals to be used in war against us, so yes, even the best of the gentiles must be killed [in war].

Now, when you actually open the talmud, and start studying it, then we can talk, until now, this has been a waste of my time.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: The point is, for the purposes of this debate, we are to compare the Babylonian Talmud against the Christian New Testament, and see if exactly the same offensive verses from the Talmud are replicated, in any way, shape or form, in the Christian New Testament.

Go ahead.

I don't see the point in it.

Why don't you compare Moby Dick or the Communist Manifesto while you are at it?

What will you learn? Absolutely nothing.


The only things worth learning seem strange and bizarre to you.

[Israel]

psholtz wrote: Here are some interesting references:

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/talmud1.htm
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/talmud2.htm

I guess the task would be:

(a) verify that the Talmud really says these things;
(b) verify that exactly the same things can be found in the Christian NT (as some have suggested)..
I think I can stop right here..

Quote: The Talmud Unmasked

The Secret Rabbinical Teachings Concerning Christians

By
Rev. I. B. Pranaitis

Okay, great. I'm sure some Reverend has a great view of the Talmud when approaching it from the angel that it's wrong and a lie. When you choose to find a website that is not equivelent to www.G-dhatesfags.com then we can discuss the Talmud.

[Israel]

cap'n queasy wrote: What makes you think it doesn't?
Lots of things, but the burden of proof is upon you, as you're the one who is claiming it is.

cap'n queasy wrote: Seems pretty clear that this is about the rejection of the Anointed One.
Well considering every priest was an annointed one, every King was annointed, what reason do I have to believe that this annointed person is something special???

[Israel]

cap'n queasy wrote: Don't forget

C) Have some knowledge about exactly what they are talking about.
Thank you Cap'n.

[cap'n queasy]

If I were going to compare the Talmud to something I would compare it to another book of scriptural commentary.

Perhaps the Quran. At least it's another commentary who's believers think has mystical significance.


There is no "Christian" equivalent really. Halley's Bible Commentary is not generally held in this type of regard.

[psholtz]

Israel wrote: psholtz wrote: Here are some interesting references:

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/talmud1.htm
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/talmud2.htm

I guess the task would be:

(a) verify that the Talmud really says these things;
(b) verify that exactly the same things can be found in the Christian NT (as some have suggested)..
I think I can stop right here..
You're perfectly welcome to stop right there, if you lack the strength or courage to go any further.

The problem is that the Christians aren't going to stop right there, and they're going to continue going forward and delving deeper into your Talmud, and unless you're able to explain it to them in a way that makes some amount of sense, they're going to start growing very suspicious about exactly what is written in that Talmud and why..

You're welcome to put an end to any misunderstandings right here and now, if this is possible..

[John]

Quote: Well considering every priest was an annointed one, every King was annointed, what reason do I have to believe that this annointed person is something special???

Because this Priest also has a crown.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: The problem is that the Christians aren't going to stop right there,

He uses this term rather loosely, Israel.

[cap'n queasy]

John wrote: Quote: Well considering every priest was an annointed one, every King was annointed, what reason do I have to believe that this annointed person is something special???

Because this Priest also has a crown.

Yes. Only one figure in Tanahk has this designation. And he represents Messiah.

[psholtz]

Israel wrote: Furthermore, to put something into context for you...

This is what your garbage of a website does to the Talmud. They glance through it, see something like, "R. Shimon ben Yochai taught: Kill [even] the good among the gentiles."

Now instead of putting it into context, they wave it around as proof of something. Had they actually studied it, they would know that this talks about the animals that drove the chariots. If you've read Exodus 14, which I have my doubts about, you'll realize that pharoph goes after the Jews w/ 600 chariots. Whose animals are these???

They are not the Jews, 10:26
They are not pharophs, 9:3
They are not from egypt, 9:6

So where are the animals from? They are from the righteous Egyptians who were also G-d fearing. So what did they do??? They allowed their animals to be used in war against us, so yes, even the best of the gentiles must be killed [in war].

Now, when you actually open the talmud, and start studying it, then we can talk, until now, this has been a waste of my time.
Is this an example of the kind of *knowledge* that we must possess before we can read and understand the Talmud?

Consider that China is generally regarded as a (more or less) openly hostile country to the United States. Consider further that Israel recently sold military hardware and armaments to China. Now does that give the U.S. justification to go ahead and drop a couple hydrogen bombs on Israel, since Israel permitted the use of their resources against the United States? After all, "even the good" in Israel are going to have to be killed, according to your Talmudic logic, correct?

Am I applying Talmudic knowledge correctly in my decision-making process?

[Israel]

John wrote: Quote: Well considering every priest was an annointed one, every King was annointed, what reason do I have to believe that this annointed person is something special???

Because this Priest also has a crown.
And where do you see priest?

Psalms 89:38-52 - 38 But You have cast off and rejected, You have been full of wrath against Your anointed. 39 You have spurned the covenant of Your servant; You have profaned his crown in the dust. 40 You have broken down all his walls; You have brought his strongholds to ruin. 41 All who pass along the way plunder him; He has become a reproach to his neighbors. 42 You have exalted the right hand of his adversaries; You have made all his enemies rejoice. 43 You also turn back the edge of his sword And have not made him stand in battle. 44 You have made his splendor to cease And cast his throne to the ground. 45 You have shortened the days of his youth; You have covered him with shame. Selah. 46 How long, O LORD? Will You hide Yourself forever? Will Your wrath burn like fire? 47 Remember what my span of life is; For what vanity You have created all the sons of men! 48 What man can live and not see death? Can he deliver his soul from the power of Sheol? Selah. 49 Where are Your former lovingkindnesses, O Lord, Which You swore to David in Your faithfulness? 50 Remember, O Lord, the reproach of Your servants; How I bear in my bosom the reproach of all the many peoples, 51 With which Your enemies have reproached, O LORD, With which they have reproached the footsteps of Your anointed. 52 Blessed be the LORD forever! Amen and Amen.

[Israel]

cap'n queasy wrote: He uses this term rather loosely, Israel.
Well, that depends on his definition of a Christian, and yours. Something I'm not going to debat.

[Israel]

psholtz wrote: Am I applying Talmudic knowledge correctly in my decision-making process?
No, you're not.