Political Crossfire Forums

JCool333 · Joined: 08 Dec 2005 Posts: 390

By definition, if you are born from a Jewish mother, then you are a Jew. You may be a secular Jew, but I am friends with plenty of those, so I don't see the issue. Maybe I'm missing the point of the post?

I just want to ask why you believe that there is no G-d? On a sidepoint...

Secondary Oak · Joined: 02 Oct 2004 Posts: 3385 Location: Haifa

JCool333 wrote: I just want to ask why you believe that there is no G-d? On a sidepoint...
For precisely the same reason I don't believe in invisible pink uniforms.

Furthermore, I would dare say my reason is also pretty similar to the reason you don't believe in Zues.

Duchifas - I'll answer later (homework... :-|)

Duchifas · Joined: 22 Jun 2004 Posts: 9950

JCool333 wrote: By definition, if you are born from a Jewish mother, then you are a Jew.

Yes. I don't doubt that for a second.

Quote: You may be a secular Jew, but I am friends with plenty of those, so I don't see the issue.

The issue is how does one reconcile the concept of not believing in G-d and being Jewish. On a purely intellectual level. Note, I am not talking about people who actually know something about Judaism and Jewish history. If a person was brought up completely unaware of the two, ok, that's understanable.

Quote: Maybe I'm missing the point of the post?

Well, the point of the post started (there is a link on first page) when Yossi Sarid, who in my humble opinion, did more against Judaism than most people alive today, was offended by the idea of a Christian theme park in Galillee, "as a Jew." He didn't say he was offended as an atheist, or as an Israeli, or as whatever. He was offended "as a Jew." Now, I don't question Sarid's genetics. I am just questioning why, after a lifetime of fighting Judaism, his objects on the basis of "as a Jew."

It makes no sense to me. :roll:

Secondary Oak · Joined: 02 Oct 2004 Posts: 3385 Location: Haifa

Duchifas wrote: Here I am working on the assumption that while disagreeing with me, you don't ignore the basic historical truths (as they do). In this case, the basic historical fact is that secular Jew was pretty much (yes, with certain exceptions) an oxymoron until Haskala, etc. Which is why I picked the dates I picked. Why 3,000 and not 2,900? Ok, 2,900, whatever. Give or take 100 years.

Do you disagree?
Disagree with what? That saying "he is Jewish" usually meant "he is religious", until about 200 years ago? No, I don't. But I think you're missing my point, which is that both religious and non-religious Jews share many aspects of the Jewish culture and tradition, aspects that can exist "on their own", without a god.

Duchifas wrote: BTW, I didn't see an answer with regard to Passover
Symbolism of slavery to freedom, commemorating an important event in the history of my people, things like that.

Also, for me personally, Passover always makes me think of the entire Jewish history to date.

BUT these are all non-issues, since you really summed it up nicely:

Duchifas wrote: Ok, let's define culture.
[...]
Is our culture the same?
Honestly, I don't know. I assume culture has a lot to do with the things you mentioned - and, as such, your culture isn't really Jewish either - it's Eastern-European / American. Just like mine is Israeli, which is an odd mix of Western and Mid-Eastern.

But I think you will agree with me that we do share some common cultural things, by virtue of our heritage. I'd name these as the "Jewish" culture - as it is independent from many others.

How common are these things? I don't know. Heck, there are many Israeli Jews from my own city that I would say have a radically different culture from mine. And yet we do share some aspects.

To sum my position, I'm not really certain of what culture really is: but I assert that 3000 years of common heritage has affected it, without any relation to religion. From small things like language and phrases, to big things like holidays and education.

JCool333 · Joined: 08 Dec 2005 Posts: 390

Ah. I see now.

I see both points.

My opinion is that Secondary Oak is Jewish, but I don't understand how you can possibly identify yourself as a Jew and an atheist. They are conflicting ideas.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 22511 Location: Houston

Quote: For precisely the same reason I don't believe in invisible pink uniforms.

Whoa! That's a wierd one. :lol:

Secondary Oak · Joined: 02 Oct 2004 Posts: 3385 Location: Haifa

JCool333 wrote: My opinion is that Secondary Oak is Jewish, but I don't understand how you can possibly identify yourself as a Jew and an atheist. They are conflicting ideas.
Re-read this thread from the beginning to understand my position.

Duchifas · Joined: 22 Jun 2004 Posts: 9950

Secondary Oak wrote: Duchifas wrote: Here I am working on the assumption that while disagreeing with me, you don't ignore the basic historical truths (as they do). In this case, the basic historical fact is that secular Jew was pretty much (yes, with certain exceptions) an oxymoron until Haskala, etc. Which is why I picked the dates I picked. Why 3,000 and not 2,900? Ok, 2,900, whatever. Give or take 100 years.

Do you disagree?
Disagree with what? That saying "he is Jewish" usually meant "he is religious", until about 200 years ago? No, I don't. But I think you're missing my point, which is that both religious and non-religious Jews share many aspects of the Jewish culture and tradition, aspects that can exist "on their own", without a god.

See, I don't think that's true at all. Aside from belief in G-d, Torah, and following Jewish traditions to the extent that we both can, some random Sephardi Jew from Morocco and I very little in common, in terms of culture (as I attempted to define it above). Or, to be more accurate, Judaism aside, I probably have more in common with an average American, and a Sephardi Jew has more in common with average Arab people, than we would have in common with each other.

Wouldn't you agree? And if yes, doesn't that strongly undermine your assertion?

Quote: Duchifas wrote: BTW, I didn't see an answer with regard to Passover
Symbolism of slavery to freedom, commemorating an important event in the history of my people, things like that.

Also, for me personally, Passover always makes me think of the entire Jewish history to date.

Ok....., let's be more specific, do you read from the Haggadah? :)

Quote: BUT these are all non-issues, since you really summed it up nicely:

Duchifas wrote: Ok, let's define culture.
[...]
Is our culture the same?
Honestly, I don't know. I assume culture has a lot to do with the things you mentioned - and, as such, your culture isn't really Jewish either - it's Eastern-European / American. Just like mine is Israeli, which is an odd mix of Western and Mid-Eastern.

But I think you will agree with me that we do share some common cultural things, by virtue of our heritage. I'd name these as the "Jewish" culture - as it is independent from many others.

How common are these things? I don't know. Heck, there are many Israeli Jews from my own city that I would say have a radically different culture from mine. And yet we do share some aspects.

And what I very simply postulate, is that the aspects that you do share are overwhelmingly rooted in Torah/Judaism. Of course, aside from the natural "Israeli" acculturation that naturally results from living together in proximity.

Quote: To sum my position, I'm not really certain of what culture really is: but I assert that 3000 years of common heritage has affected it, without any relation to religion. From small things like language and phrases, to big things like holidays and education.

Dude, how can you say holidays and education have no relation to religion when for over three millenia Jews celebrated the holidays for solely religious purposes, and education was predominantly religious? C'mon. :)