Political Crossfire Forums

[Secondary Oak]

Continued from here.

Duchifas wrote: I'll be perfectly honest with you.

Having chatted with you for a quite while, I understand that while you are an atheist on an intellectual basis, you have healthy respect and a decent knowledge of Jewish religion and traditon. I have never seen you be disrespectful of it or attack it, even if you disagreed.
While I'm of course pleased to read that, I don't see the immediate connection. Just because someone is being rude or uneducated, it means that somehow his heritage is nullified?

Quote: Having closely followed the Israeli political and social scene for many years, that is much more than I can say of Yossi Sarid. Therefore, I would certainly not view you in the same light I view him or Lapid or Aloni, or the rest of the merry bunch, who have been working overtime to attack Judaism and Jewish traditions.
I, of course, disagree. Those people don't "work overtime to attack judaism". All they want is religious freedom, or rather freedom from religion.

Quote: In my opinion, with which some may disagree, the whole idea of a "Jew" arose out of the Exodus/Sinai experience where our ancestors came in contact with the Divine. That's our birth as a people, that and the resulting religion/tradition is what formed us into one cohesive nation, and that (not anything else) is what kept us as a nation for 3,500 years.
Yes, the whole idea of a "Jew" arose 3,500 years ago. But that's precisely why it's so much more than that. Regardless of my belief or my morals, I still have millenias of heritage, which you for some reason lessen because of my beliefs. Even thousands of years ago the Israelites were defined by more than their religion - for starters, even the ones who followed other gods were still considered Israelite!

I speak the Jewish language and celebrate Jewish holidays. I'm familiar with Jewish history, from biblical to modern, a lot more than I'm familiar with the histories of other nations. I have an heritage. Seems to me absurd you disregard all this because of my beliefs.

Quote: So while I acknowledge that there are secular and atheists Jews, and not for a second do I doubt or deny their Jewishness, the concept of secular/atheist Jews just doesn't make sense to me intellectually because of what I just described.

And history seems to agree with me -- secular/atheist/reform/conservative Jews cannot last more than a few generations. You've probably read the article I posted here on the subject. (http://commentarymagazine.com/article.asp?aid=12003041_1) For these reasons, in brief, a secular Jew in my optimistic mind is merely a "not yet religious" Jew. If not him, then his child or grandchild. Or the other way around.
Perhaps. But I still have my beliefs, and I'm still doing what is right in my opinion.
And you are more than welcome to keep your optimistic, yet unlikely, hopes :lol:

[John]

You're a Jew, Secondary Oak. No ifs ands or buts about it.

[Secondary Oak]

John wrote: You're a Jew, Secondary Oak. No ifs ands or buts about it.
Oh, I think Duchifas would agree to that - he mainly said that he will me saying "as a Jew, I..." strange because of my beliefs.

My point is that my lineage, heritage, history and manners play as much an important part as my religion (or lack of in my case).

[Saracen]

Actually, Secondary Oak has a point.

Judaism is a religion and not a race.

All they want is religious freedom, or rather freedom from religion.

Well, I don't know much about that, Oak. But religious freedom is more freedom of religion. But if you mean by "not letting Jewish traditions interfere with politics", then you may have a point.

[Secondary Oak]

Moath wrote: Actually, Secondary Oak has a point.

Judaism is a religion and not a race.
Umm, that's not my point at all. And Judaism isn't just a religion.

Quote: All they want is religious freedom, or rather freedom from religion.

Well, I don't know much about that, Oak. But religious freedom is more freedom of religion. But if you mean by "not letting Jewish traditions interfere with politics", then you may have a point.
I'm afraid you missed my point... if you're interested in what I mean by "freedom from religion" you could check one of my old rants out.

[Duchifas]

Secondary Oak wrote: Continued from here.

Duchifas wrote: I'll be perfectly honest with you.

Having chatted with you for a quite while, I understand that while you are an atheist on an intellectual basis, you have healthy respect and a decent knowledge of Jewish religion and traditon. I have never seen you be disrespectful of it or attack it, even if you disagreed.

While I'm of course pleased to read that, I don't see the immediate connection. Just because someone is being rude or uneducated, it means that somehow his heritage is nullified?

To a degree, yes. Let's say I am halachically Jewish. But I want nothing to do with Judaism, don't know much about it, don't care for it, don't particularly like Jews, and consistently meet my daily quota of rabid Israel bashing (In case you are wondering, I've just described one member of this forum, whose name need not be disclosed.)

When such a person prefaces his sentence with "as a Jew" -- would my reaction be unwarranted? So to answer your question, respect can be important.

Quote: Quote: Having closely followed the Israeli political and social scene for many years, that is much more than I can say of Yossi Sarid. Therefore, I would certainly not view you in the same light I view him or Lapid or Aloni, or the rest of the merry bunch, who have been working overtime to attack Judaism and Jewish traditions.
I, of course, disagree. Those people don't "work overtime to attack judaism". All they want is religious freedom, or rather freedom from religion.

Yes, we have different views on that. In my opinion they cross the line all too often, and often stay on the wrong side of the line for prolonged periods. But I don't see the point of going back and forth examining their quotes and pasting article excerpts, too time consuming and not worth the trouble

Quote: Yes, the whole idea of a "Jew" arose 3,500 years ago. But that's precisely why it's so much more than that. Regardless of my belief or my morals, I still have millenias of heritage, which you for some reason lessen because of my beliefs. Even thousands of years ago the Israelites were defined by more than their religion - for starters, even the ones who followed other gods were still considered Israelite!

Quite so. Now, aside from those Israelites who came back to Judaism and abandoned other gods, do you know any Jewish descendants of those Israelites who remained true to the other gods and remained Israelites for more than a few generations? Do you know any Jews who can trace their lineage to consistent, unrepenting Baal worshippers? Do you know a Jew who can say that his father, grandfather, great-grandfather, etc, etc were all Hellenist Jews?

No, you don't. And neither do I. And that demonstrates my point. The phenomenon of a Jew, even with his heritage, etc, but without the Jewish G-d is a fleeting one. Either he returns to G-d at some point in some way, or his descendants inevitably lose the Jewish identity. Sometimes it takes one or two generations, and sometimes it takes four or five. But iIn 3,500 years NOT EVEN ONE EXCEPTION to that rule that I can think of.

In modern times, the analagous phenomenon (at least here in the US) is Reform Jews. Do you know any 4th generation Reform Jews? I don't. I would venture to say that among the five or so million American Jews, a good number of whom are reform, you won't find more than a minyan of 4th generation Reform Jews.

Quote: I speak the Jewish language and celebrate Jewish holidays.

Please don't take this as an offense, I don't mean it to be, but this is precisely the point where the concept of "secular Jew" ceases to make sense to me. You speak of celebrating Jewish holidays. What does that mean?

Do you celebrate Rosh Hashana? Look into Jewish sources -- that holiday has never been a mere calendar mark, it is a day acknowledging and accepting that G-d created this world 5,767 years ago and is the Supreme Ruler who judges all.

What else do you celebrate? Yom Kippur? That holiday marks judgment day by...G-d.

What else do you celebrate? Passover? That holiday commemorates the miraculous (read: Divine intervention) Exodus from Egypt. Splitting of the sea and the whole enchelada.

What else do you celebrate? Shavuot? That holiday celebrates the revelation at Sinai, Jewish encounter with G-d, and receiving of the Torah, in which you aren't supposed to believe as an atheist.

Sukkot? We spend time living outside our homes under a roof made of branches to symbolize that our true security and comfort comes from G-d, not from the work of our hands.

What else, Hanukkah? Ok, that holiday celebrates the miracle of the menorah burning for 8 days, as well as the victory of religious Jews devoted to G-d over Hellenism and its adherents.

So here is my question for you. If you celebrate Jewish holidays, whose overwhelming (and in fact ONLY) theme is our connection with and acknowledgement G-d, what kind of an atheist are you?

Do you see the problem here?

Now, if you were to say that you are a non-observant Jew, or not fully observant, or something like that -- ok, that makes perfect sense. I am also not fully observant. I also do less than I can and should, and so do most, if not all Jews who call themselves religious. Nobody is perfect. That's a weakness, and everyone has weaknesses. A weakness I can understand. Struggle I can understand. Doubt I can also understand. Everyone has doubts.

But the disparity above I don't get for the life of me. To affirmatively deny the existence of G-d on one hand, and to celebrate holidays the centerpiece of which is acknowledgment of G-d on the other hand -- that I can't grasp.

Quote: I'm familiar with Jewish history, from biblical to modern, a lot more than I'm familiar with the histories of other nations. I have an heritage. Seems to me absurd you disregard all this because of my beliefs.

I don't disregard it. I never did nor would I ever say "you are not a Jew." In fact, I would never say that to Sarid, Lapid and their buddies either. My problem is with the clash that I see in people who (I know you disagree) spend their lives attacking Judaism, and then get offended about some theme park "as a Jew."

Of course, this clash manifests itself in positive ways too. Plenty, if not most, secular and reform Jews went to death in German concentration camps chanting Shema Yisrael. And if it comes to that again, Sarid will likely do it too, I have no doubt. Because when you get to the bottom of it, there no such thing as an atheist Jew. It's a contradiction in terms. ;)

Quote: Quote: So while I acknowledge that there are secular and atheists Jews, and not for a second do I doubt or deny their Jewishness, the concept of secular/atheist Jews just doesn't make sense to me intellectually because of what I just described.

And history seems to agree with me -- secular/atheist/reform/conservative Jews cannot last more than a few generations. You've probably read the article I posted here on the subject. (http://commentarymagazine.com/article.asp?aid=12003041_1) For these reasons, in brief, a secular Jew in my optimistic mind is merely a "not yet religious" Jew. If not him, then his child or grandchild. Or the other way around.
Perhaps. But I still have my beliefs, and I'm still doing what is right in my opinion.
And you are more than welcome to keep your optimistic, yet unlikely, hopes :lol:

As a student of Jewish history, you should know full well that it is a history of unlikely hopes coming true. ;) I don't see any reason for that pattern to change in our lifetimes.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: As a student of Jewish history, you should know full well that it is a history of unlikely hopes coming true. I don't see any reason for that pattern to change in our lifetimes.

That's a beautiful sentiment.

[Secondary Oak]

Quote: Quote: Yes, the whole idea of a "Jew" arose 3,500 years ago. But that's precisely why it's so much more than that. Regardless of my belief or my morals, I still have millenias of heritage, which you for some reason lessen because of my beliefs. Even thousands of years ago the Israelites were defined by more than their religion - for starters, even the ones who followed other gods were still considered Israelite!

Quite so. Now, aside from those Israelites who came back to Judaism and abandoned other gods, do you know any Jewish descendants of those Israelites who remained true to the other gods and remained Israelites for more than a few generations? Do you know any Jews who can trace their lineage to consistent, unrepenting Baal worshippers? Do you know a Jew who can say that his father, grandfather, great-grandfather, etc, etc were all Hellenist Jews?

No, you don't. And neither do I. And that demonstrates my point. The phenomenon of a Jew, even with his heritage, etc, but without the Jewish G-d is a fleeting one. Either he returns to G-d at some point in some way, or his descendants inevitably lose the Jewish identity. Sometimes it takes one or two generations, and sometimes it takes four or five. But iIn 3,500 years NOT EVEN ONE EXCEPTION to that rule that I can think of.
There's, in my opinion, a big difference between someone who is Jewish only by birth but tries to distances himself from Judaism, and someone like me.

For example, if a Jewish man becomes Christian, it's likely he will embrace a lot of the Christian habits, holidays, learn their history, etc. It's likely he will consider himself Christian, not Jewish.

However, us atheists don't embrace a different religion or try to abandon our culture. We hold the same culture, we just ignore any divine aspect you folk try to attribute to it :)

Quote: Quote: I speak the Jewish language and celebrate Jewish holidays.

Please don't take this as an offense, I don't mean it to be, but this is precisely the point where the concept of "secular Jew" ceases to make sense to me. You speak of celebrating Jewish holidays. What does that mean?

You describe the religious aspect of each holiday: that's the way you view it. I see it differently.

Quote: Do you celebrate Rosh Hashana? Look into Jewish sources -- that holiday has never been a mere calendar mark, it is a day acknowledging and accepting that G-d created this world 5,767 years ago and is the Supreme Ruler who judges all.
For me, it's a calendar mark - a meaningful calendar mark. A time to review last year, make hopes for the new one, eat sweet things as symbolism, etc.

Quote: What else do you celebrate? Yom Kippur? That holiday marks judgment day by...G-d.
One can't really "celebrate" Yom Kippur, no?
Anyway you don't have to think of God in order to feel sorry for things you've done or to forgive others. Doesn't the religious view say the same, as in first people need to forgive each other, and only by that can they achieve forgiveness from God?

Quote: What else do you celebrate? Passover? That holiday commemorates the miraculous (read: Divine intervention) Exodus from Egypt. Splitting of the sea and the whole enchelada.
This holiday commemorates an important event in Jewish history. The myths attached to it are fun to imagine and to see in movies, but they are not true and neither are them what I celebrate :)

Quote: What else do you celebrate? Shavuot? That holiday celebrates the revelation at Sinai, Jewish encounter with G-d, and receiving of the Torah, in which you aren't supposed to believe as an atheist.
True. Shavuot is celebrates by me, as with most Israelis, as an agricultural holiday.

Quote: Sukkot? We spend time living outside our homes under a roof made of branches to symbolize that our true security and comfort comes from G-d, not from the work of our hands.
Again, celebrating events in our history. That's what most holidays are like all over the world, you know.

Quote: What else, Hanukkah? Ok, that holiday celebrates the miracle of the menorah burning for 8 days, as well as the victory of religious Jews devoted to G-d over Hellenism and its adherents.
And again, major events. I recall clearly Mailech saying the miracle of the menorah is not the meaning of the holiday - the victory against oppressors is.

Quote: Of course, this clash manifests itself in positive ways too. Plenty, if not most, secular and reform Jews went to death in German concentration camps chanting Shema Yisrael.
And many others - I would dare say, countless more - lost their faith over the holocaust. I believe my grandfathers and grandmothers were among those.

[John]

You know, I do see Duchifas' point.


Why do you choose being an Atheist to identify with who you are? I mean seriously. You seem to be somewhat of an activist Atheist.

I personally don't understand that. Could you explain your views on this?

[Secondary Oak]

John wrote: Why do you choose being an Atheist to identify with who you are? I mean seriously. You seem to be somewhat of an activist Atheist.

I personally don't understand that. Could you explain your views on this?
I'm not sure I understand the question... can you rephrase?

I identify myself to be many things. Atheist, Jewish, computer-geek, handsome, incredibly bright, modest... I can carry on for hours :)

[Duchifas]

Secondary Oak wrote: There's, in my opinion, a big difference between someone who is Jewish only by birth but tries to distances himself from Judaism, and someone like me.

I acknowledge and respect that difference, as I pointed out in the initial thread.

Quote: For example, if a Jewish man becomes Christian, it's likely he will embrace a lot of the Christian habits, holidays, learn their history, etc. It's likely he will consider himself Christian, not Jewish.

However, us atheists don't embrace a different religion or try to abandon our culture. We hold the same culture, we just ignore any divine aspect you folk try to attribute to it :)

This comment will apply for this reply and for your following replies. Trying to ignore the divine aspect out of Jewish culture, or as below, out of Jewish holidays is trying to ignore the essence out of it. Comon, you know the history, you can't disagree with me that the Jewish "culture" and the Jewish holidays without G-d are a new and foreign concept to the Jewish people, no more than about 200 years old. You know as well as I do that for the 3,300 years prior to that, if you were suggest to a Jew, any Jew, the concept of Shavuot without Torah and Rosh Hashana without G-d, he would view the concept as outrageous comedy. And you'd cause the same reaction today by traditional Jews. Celebrating a Shavuot minus the Torah and Rosh Hashana minus G-d is like buying a car without an engine and transmission. Sure, it has leather seats, moonroof, cruise control, and a million other gadgets and looks quite sleek. But everyone knows that it is the engine and transmission that are the essence of the car.

Quote: You describe the religious aspect of each holiday: that's the way you view it. I see it differently.

When the birth of the holiday was clearly religious in nature, and throughout its VERY LONG history the holiday was always celebrated essentially as a religious rite, I don't see how you can say that the holiday retains its purpose/theme when you take the religious aspect out of it.

So then I don't get what exactly you are celebrating.

I mean, I do understand what you (not personally) would do -- on Chanukah eat latkes and play with dreidel and eat apples and honey on Rosh Hashana and have a nice outdoors barbecue on Sukkot, but on the intellectual level I don't understand how that's a celebration, if in your mind the central theme of the holiday is missing. Ok, I eat latkes throughout the year. That doesn't make it Chanukah every time I do it.

Quote: Quote: What else do you celebrate? Passover? That holiday commemorates the miraculous (read: Divine intervention) Exodus from Egypt. Splitting of the sea and the whole enchelada.
This holiday commemorates an important event in Jewish history. The myths attached to it are fun to imagine and to see in movies, but they are not true and neither are them what I celebrate :)

This one is interesting. Can you describe to me the important event, adn its importance, as you see it, that you celebrate?

Quote: Quote: Of course, this clash manifests itself in positive ways too. Plenty, if not most, secular and reform Jews went to death in German concentration camps chanting Shema Yisrael.
And many others - I would dare say, countless more - lost their faith over the holocaust. I believe my grandfathers and grandmothers were among those.

Yes, that is also true.

[ZionForever]

Maybe he celebrates tradition - tradition that has kept his jewish bloodline running to this day.

Duchifas - I'm trying to read as much as I can but it is getting quite late. So the jist that I am getting is that you don't understand the concept of a secular jew?

If that is so - I'm not sure I believe in your view of God, yet I consider myself a Jew. I guess I could be considered sort of atheist, but I do believe in something "higher" - however I do not necessarily agree with the classic Jewish concept of God. But then again, I have many years to change my opinion, since I am probably quite young compared to you guys. With the way God is displayed in our Bible, he certainly does not represent those characteristics today - hence the many interpretations.

I consider myself a Jew through tradition, blood, and general history. I choose to go to synagogue because I feel it is vital to Jewish survival to retain some sort of connection to our religion, and because it makes me happy to be around other fellow Jews. I also believe in something higher, and I feel most connected to that belief through Judaism.

Ok, I'm getting pretty lost in thought and very tired and I can't really remember what I have just typed... maybe I'll come back tomorrow to clarify if I haven't completely misunderstood this whole thread..... :lol:

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: Isaiah 17:10 For you have forgotten the God of your salvation

And have not remembered the rock of your refuge.

Therefore you plant delightful plants

And set them with vine slips of a strange god.

11 In the day that you plant it you carefully fence it in,

And in the morning you bring your seed to blossom;

But the harvest will be a heap

In a day of sickliness and incurable pain.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: Isaiah 14:29 "Do not rejoice, O Philistia, all of you, Because the rod that struck you is broken; For from the serpent's root a viper will come out, And its fruit will be a flying serpent. 30 "Those who are most helpless will eat, And the needy will lie down in security; I will destroy your root with famine, And it will kill off your survivors. 31 "Wail, O gate; cry, O city; Melt away, O Philistia, all of you; For smoke comes from the north, And there is no straggler in his ranks. 32 "How then will one answer the messengers of the nation? That the LORD has founded Zion, And the afflicted of His people will seek refuge in it."

[Duchifas]

ZionForever wrote: Maybe he celebrates tradition - tradition that has kept his jewish bloodline running to this day.

I am still not sure whether that would make sense. The essence of our tradition has been to preserve....the Torah and the relationship with G-d. That's just fact, I don't think anyone can dispute that.

I can understand celebrating Israel Independence Day perfectly fine without the concept of G-d. Rememberance Day -- I guess that would somewhat comport with celebrating the Jewish bloodline running despite all the sacrifices.

But Passover? I don't understand how that can be celebrated with Divinity taken out of it.

Quote: Duchifas - I'm trying to read as much as I can but it is getting quite late. So the jist that I am getting is that you don't understand the concept of a secular jew?

Yeah, pretty much. :)

Quote: If that is so - I'm not sure I believe in your view of God, yet I consider myself a Jew. I guess I could be considered sort of atheist, but I do believe in something "higher" - however I do not necessarily agree with the classic Jewish concept of God. But then again, I have many years to change my opinion, since I am probably quite young compared to you guys. With the way God is displayed in our Bible, he certainly does not represent those characteristics today - hence the many interpretations.

I consider myself a Jew through tradition, blood, and general history. I choose to go to synagogue because I feel it is vital to Jewish survival to retain some sort of connection to our religion, and because it makes me happy to be around other fellow Jews. I also believe in something higher, and I feel most connected to that belief through Judaism.

Ok, I'm getting pretty lost in thought and very tired and I can't really remember what I have just typed... maybe I'll come back tomorrow to clarify if I haven't completely misunderstood this whole thread..... :lol:

Right, I agree with what you are saying. I can understand having disagreements about G-d's nature, what exactly Judaism should be in form, and how much observance an individual holds himself too. Everyone has doubts and every Jew's understanding of G-d and and Judaism is a little different from someone else's.

So the things that you outlined, I can perfectly understand. You've described the concept of a struggling Jew. Ok, I am also a struggling. I want to do more, I know I should do more, I should learn and know more, but I am not where I want to be. The struggle is an essential part of Judaism (esp. if you are into Chassidut).

But what I don't understand is identifying and celebrating the Jew part at the same time as denying what Jews have always stood for -- a connection to G-d.

I just don't get it, and so far haven't heard a good explanation. :) :roll:

[Secondary Oak]

Duchifas wrote: I am still not sure whether that would make sense. The essence of our tradition has been to preserve....the Torah and the relationship with G-d. That's just fact, I don't think anyone can dispute that.
I dispute that.
It's not the essence. It may be the original reason, but tradition and culture don't have any essence. They exist on their own.

Like I said before, just because something has a religious origin, and that you see it from the religious point-of-view, doesn't mean it's "essence" is somehow connected to the divine.

[Zoot]

I find that, even though I am an atheist - which is to say, I don't believe in any gods because I see no reason to - I am unavoidably a product of a culture and heritage that includes Christianity, and plenty of the values that make me who I am are a result of that heritage. Atheism itself is simply a position on the existence of gods - it provides no values by which to live.

[Duchifas]

Secondary Oak wrote: Duchifas wrote: I am still not sure whether that would make sense. The essence of our tradition has been to preserve....the Torah and the relationship with G-d. That's just fact, I don't think anyone can dispute that.
I dispute that.
It's not the essence. It may be the original reason, but tradition and culture don't have any essence. They exist on their own.

Like I said before, just because something has a religious origin, and that you see it from the religious point-of-view, doesn't mean it's "essence" is somehow connected to the divine.

Oak, I am sorry, but that's just not true. If the nation formed as a result of some divine experience, waddled about with that notion for a few generations, and became secular -- you would have an argument.

But it is an undisputable fact that the concept of a secular Jew was an oxymoron for about 3,000 years of Jewish history. Pick up any Jewish history book, whether by a religious or non-religious author, to confirm that.

[Secondary Oak]

Duchifas wrote: Oak, I am sorry, but that's just not true. If the nation formed as a result of some divine experience, waddled about with that notion for a few generations, and became secular -- you would have an argument.

But it is an undisputable fact that the concept of a secular Jew was an oxymoron for about 3,000 years of Jewish history. Pick up any Jewish history book, whether by a religious or non-religious author, to confirm that.
First of all, often in the Mid-East forum you attack the claims of "100 years ago" with "why 100? why not 500? why not 2000?". Well then, Duchi, why 3000? why not 1000? why not 100?
I've only been around for 23 anyway.

Secondly, I disagree on the secular Jew idea being impossible. I assume that as early as 500 BC, perhaps, there were secular Jews. A simple matter of statistical possibility.
Besides, secularity was in general rare a few hundred years ago; do you also claim there isn't any Christian culture?

And finally, the Jewish culture has a secular aspect. Every culture has, no matter how religion-centric it may or may not be, especially such an old culture. I can understand you see things from a religious standpoint, first and foremost; but you must realize this isn't the only one. The mere fact that my godless culture is the same as yours is sufficient to prove it.

Unless, of course, you say my culture is significantly different than yours: that's a different question altogether, I guess... or perhaps that's what you've been saying?

[Duchifas]

Secondary Oak wrote: Duchifas wrote: Oak, I am sorry, but that's just not true. If the nation formed as a result of some divine experience, waddled about with that notion for a few generations, and became secular -- you would have an argument.

But it is an undisputable fact that the concept of a secular Jew was an oxymoron for about 3,000 years of Jewish history. Pick up any Jewish history book, whether by a religious or non-religious author, to confirm that.
First of all, often in the Mid-East forum you attack the claims of "100 years ago" with "why 100? why not 500? why not 2000?". Well then, Duchi, why 3000? why not 1000? why not 100?
I've only been around for 23 anyway.

I attack their claims in this way because often they pretend that history began 100 years ago, or 50 years ago in Israel's case.

Here I am working on the assumption that while disagreeing with me, you don't ignore the basic historical truths (as they do). In this case, the basic historical fact is that secular Jew was pretty much (yes, with certain exceptions) an oxymoron until Haskala, etc. Which is why I picked the dates I picked. Why 3,000 and not 2,900? Ok, 2,900, whatever. Give or take 100 years.

Do you disagree?

Quote: Secondly, I disagree on the secular Jew idea being impossible.

I don't think I said it was impossible. I said it is a contradiction.

Quote: I assume that as early as 500 BC, perhaps, there were secular Jews. A simple matter of statistical possibility.
Besides, secularity was in general rare a few hundred years ago; do you also claim there isn't any Christian culture?

I don't know enough about Christianity to give you a definitive answer, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were no such thing. There may be French culture, American culture, Russian culture (or lack thereof), but I don't quite know if there is such a thing as "Christian culture." There are Christians in Japan and there are Christians in Poland. What they have in comon is a religious belief in Jesus and what he taught, etc. I am not sure whether there are any cultural commonalities between them flowing out of that.

Quote: And finally, the Jewish culture has a secular aspect. Every culture has, no matter how religion-centric it may or may not be, especially such an old culture. I can understand you see things from a religious standpoint, first and foremost; but you must realize this isn't the only one. The mere fact that my godless culture is the same as yours is sufficient to prove it.

Ok, let's define culture. I am not sure I can subscribe to your last sentence as being my culture. Mine certainly is not godless.

Quote: Unless, of course, you say my culture is significantly different than yours: that's a different question altogether, I guess... or perhaps that's what you've been saying?

Maybe. Culture is too vague. What is it? Cuisine? Mine is Eastern-European, minus porkchops. Literature? The one I read and consider mine is deeply infused with Jewish theology. Other stuff I read is out of curiosity, not a sense of association. Music? Same. I listen to American music on the car radio, but I don't consider it part of my culture. Dress? Aside from yarmulka, couldn't tell me apart from any American or Canadian. Mannerisms? I don't know, I guess Americanized, but generally more polite. Social views and values? Torah based.

Is our culture the same?

BTW, I didn't see an answer with regard to Passover (up above):

Duchifas wrote: This one is interesting. Can you describe to me the important event, adn its importance, as you see it, that you celebrate?