Political Crossfire Forums

Showboat · Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 12:31 am Post subject:

Quote: It talks about salinity and freshwater.

It says about temp too. It also says that the Med is more saline and less dense. No a higher salt content would make it more dense, no?

Quote: Take another look at the figures.

What that river = no salt, sea = 3.3% salt and the bit inbetween is a bit salty. So what? It's hardly rocket science.

Quote: The original source cites that reference.

Where's the original source?

Quote: Modern Earth sciences proved that mountains have deep "roots" under the surface of the ground, and that these roots can reach several times the elevations of these mountains above the grounds (sorta like an iceberg that has most of it submerged underwater). So the mountain is a sort of "peg", and the crust/Earth is a "bed" for the mountains. Sir George Airy, Astronomer Royal, formulated the Peg Theory of Mountains in 1865.

"Modern earth sciences" "Peg theory of mountains in 1865" Please.

What about the rest of my post. Mount St Helens? Noah's Ark?

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16382 Location: On Earth

Showboat wrote: Where's the original source?

Here is is:
http://www.islam-guide.com/

I'll reply to your posts tomorrow.

HomoUniversalis · Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:22 am Post subject:

Saracen wrote: Quote: 4) Have you taken knowledge, and do you acknowledge the existence of special receptors in the human brain that react ONLY to cannabis and similar chemical (like HU-210) that do not exist, naturally, in the human body?

Yes. What does it have to do with the subject at hand?

You make claims about the whole of science, so I also feel I can bring in theories that do not correspond with islamic teachings.

Quote: Quote: 5) Do you acknowledge the paradox of a creator inspiring the human body with these receptors, the ability to experience the effects of the chemical, and then ordering man not to use it? "Why give a robot a penis if you don't want it to use it?"

Huh? What are you talking about? If you're talking about sex, then man is ordered to use his penis wisely, not in some haphazard manner.

I am saying: Allah supposedly created man, and gave him these special receptors. Then, he said to man, you can not use these receptors, because the usage of such substances is illegal. Why? Why would a god create a trait to man, and not want it to be used? It is like giving a robot a penis, when you intend him to wash your dishes. It makes no sense.

Regarding your other points, the quran is obviously wrong. A human, is nowhere in its development a clot of blood.

Oh, and regarding your reply to 12.004, you chose to ignore the fact that there are 'eleven planets'. This is of course, incorrect.

Mr U

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16382 Location: On Earth

Mr U wrote: You make claims about the whole of science, so I also feel I can bring in theories that do not correspond with islamic teachings.

Not really. We'll just have to wait and see.

Mr U wrote: I am saying: Allah supposedly created man, and gave him these special receptors. Then, he said to man, you can not use these receptors, because the usage of such substances is illegal. Why? Why would a god create a trait to man, and not want it to be used? It is like giving a robot a penis, when you intend him to wash your dishes. It makes no sense.

God created such things so as to test man. In the Koran, He says "I created humans and Jinn for no other purpose than to obey Me".

Mr U wrote: Regarding your other points, the quran is obviously wrong. A human, is nowhere in its development a clot of blood.

In shape.

Mr U wrote: Oh, and regarding your reply to 12.004, you chose to ignore the fact that there are 'eleven planets'. This is of course, incorrect.

Not really. Depends on the translation. It can mean one of two things.
-That the sun and moon are considered "celestial bodies" according to the first translation.
-That there are other planets that we do not know about.

HomoUniversalis · Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 7:52 pm Post subject:

Quote: Not really. Depends on the translation. It can mean one of two things.
-That the sun and moon are considered "celestial bodies" according to the first translation.

Impossible. There are a great many moons in our solar system.

Quote: -That there are other planets that we do not know about.

Such a theory can not be proven and is thus false. It's like saying, science is right everywhere it corresponds with the quran, but not where it does not correspond with the quran. It's silly..

Quote: In shape.

What? Did I miss the memo again? Remind me. Why shape..

mr U

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16382 Location: On Earth

Mr U wrote: Impossible. There are a great many moons in our solar system.

I'm talking about the Moon.

Mr U wrote: Such a theory can not be proven and is thus false. It's like saying, science is right everywhere it corresponds with the quran, but not where it does not correspond with the quran. It's silly..

Not really. The Koran acts as the firestarter to knowledge, and there is a lot of truth in it concerning science.

Mr U wrote: What? Did I miss the memo again? Remind me. Why shape..

A clot of blood is clumped in shape, is it not?

HomoUniversalis · Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:40 pm Post subject:

Quote: I'm talking about the Moon.

There is no the moon. There is a moon orbiting earth, as there are other moons orbiting other planets. That light in the nightsky is neither missile nor special. It's just a moon.

Quote: A clot of blood is clumped in shape, is it not?

No, a clot of blood can have all different kinds of shapes. Anyway, if the quran says "And oh, would you look at that, it had the shape of a blood clot," then we can argue.
Does the Quran mention shape?

Mr U

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16382 Location: On Earth

Mr U wrote: There is no the moon. There is a moon orbiting earth, as there are other moons orbiting other planets. That light in the nightsky is neither missile nor special. It's just a moon.

At that time, it was known that the moon was a celestial body. So was the sun. I offered the two explanations. Both are equally valid.

Mr U wrote: No, a clot of blood can have all different kinds of shapes. Anyway, if the quran says "And oh, would you look at that, it had the shape of a blood clot," then we can argue.
Does the Quran mention shape?

When it likens something to something else, it is usually in reference to form, shape, texture, etc.

Showboat · Posted: Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:59 pm Post subject:

Quote: 012.004
YUSUFALI: Behold! Joseph said to his father: "O my father! I did see eleven stars and the sun and the moon: I saw them prostrate themselves to me!"
PICKTHAL: When Joseph said unto his father: O my father! Lo! I saw in a dream eleven planets and the sun and the moon, I saw them prostrating themselves unto me.
SHAKIR: When Yusuf said to his father: O my father! surely I saw eleven stars and the sun and the moon-- I saw them making obeisance to me.

I can clear this up. It's not claiming that there are 11 planets. It's Joseph's dream foretelling the future. When he is the important official in Egypt during the 7 year famine his eleven brothers will come to him and prostrate themselves to him begging for grain. He doesn't say THE 11 planets, just that he saw 11. You guys never seen "Joseph and his technicolour dreamcoat"?

And why are you arguing about the sun and moon being part of the 11 when the verse states the sun and moon anyway? I dunno what they are meant to represent in his dream, don't think they're included in the OT version of events.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16382 Location: On Earth

Showboat wrote: Quote: 012.004
YUSUFALI: Behold! Joseph said to his father: "O my father! I did see eleven stars and the sun and the moon: I saw them prostrate themselves to me!"
PICKTHAL: When Joseph said unto his father: O my father! Lo! I saw in a dream eleven planets and the sun and the moon, I saw them prostrating themselves unto me.
SHAKIR: When Yusuf said to his father: O my father! surely I saw eleven stars and the sun and the moon-- I saw them making obeisance to me.

I can clear this up. It's not claiming that there are 11 planets. It's Joseph's dream foretelling the future. When he is the important official in Egypt during the 7 year famine his eleven brothers will come to him and prostrate themselves to him begging for grain. He doesn't say THE 11 planets, just that he saw 11. You guys never seen "Joseph and his technicolour dreamcoat"?

And why are you arguing about the sun and moon being part of the 11 when the verse states the sun and moon anyway? I dunno what they are meant to represent in his dream, don't think they're included in the OT version of events.

Yeah, thanks for clearing it up.

sLiPpY · Joined: 24 Nov 2004 Posts: 10088

just a note to share, I'm enjoying what I'm learning in reading through the thread.

Unfortunately, I am not familiar enough to participate...but am seeing many suprising and facsinating concepts.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16382 Location: On Earth

sLiPpY wrote: just a note to share, I'm enjoying what I'm learning in reading through the thread.

Unfortunately, I am not familiar enough to participate...but am seeing many suprising and facsinating concepts.

Glad to see you enjoy it. :)

Demonic Spoon · Joined: 20 Sep 2004 Posts: 6939 Location: Ohio

Science and religion are far from perfect for each other...

You're citing all these passages from the Koran about stuff that, when interpreted the right way, is what modern science says. But at the SAME TIME, you say we were all created by this invisible man in the sky with superpowers?

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16382 Location: On Earth

Demonic Spoon wrote: Science and religion are far from perfect for each other...

You're citing all these passages from the Koran about stuff that, when interpreted the right way, is what modern science says. But at the SAME TIME, you say we were all created by this invisible man in the sky with superpowers?

Yep. The idea here is that scientific phenomena related in the Koran was not discovered or known at that time. Also, consider that it was passed down to an illiterate man, the Prophet (pbuh). How could he have known such stuff at that time? Certainly some All-Knowing Being could have given him that information. Think about it...

HomoUniversalis · Posted: Sun Mar 19, 2006 6:04 pm Post subject:

Quote: When it likens something to something else, it is usually in reference to form, shape, texture, etc.

It strains me to see you liberal here, and constrained in the interpretation of other verses. I hope you can understand why I can no longer debate with you about Islam.
NB, I feel no ressentment towards you.

Honourably,

Jerôme

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 16382 Location: On Earth

HomoUniversalis wrote: Quote: When it likens something to something else, it is usually in reference to form, shape, texture, etc.

It strains me to see you liberal here, and constrained in the interpretation of other verses. I hope you can understand why I can no longer debate with you about Islam.
NB, I feel no ressentment towards you.

Honourably,

Jerôme

That's not my point. You want an interpretation? Here. I'll pull out the exact reference.

Islam-Guide wrote: This and many other verses describe how the human zygote (the fertilized egg and sperm) form to become an embro. "Alaqah" here speaks of a suspended "thing"; that is, it talks about the first stage of human embryonic development, where structures such as the forebrain, the heart and amnion form. It is "leech-like" in that it absorbs some of the nutrients from the mother's blood. The embryo is also likened to a "blood clot", due to the presence of relatively large amounts of blood in the human embryo.

Hope you see this.

Salaam.

Dagger · Joined: 25 Apr 2005 Posts: 459 Location: Vancouver BC

Let me put it this way, vague or not.

The fact that I can be interpreted this way makes it possible that the Quran has truth in it. I mean face it It hasn't been contradicted,

like even if it is vague, you cant say its not true, and think of all the things in this world, there must be something that can prove the Quran false, but there isn't. Do you know what i mean?

The fact that it describes and embryo and fertilization, although it may be as you say vague, it is correct is it not? How could people with no knowledge not write something weird, or totally wrong. Since et-he Quran is right on SO many levels it must be right, or are you saying that its all guesswork, and every single guess is correct?

You say it is not rocket science, but to know so much in so many fields is ingenious, not possible by a man. The Quran, it is a godly thing, and is impossible to be written by man. Unless you can give me a valid theory on how a man, of that time could have SO much knowledge, I believe in the Quran and in Allah. and Mohammad (PBUH)

Showboat · Posted: Mon Mar 20, 2006 8:17 am Post subject:

You talk about Mohammad as "An illiterate man" like he was some simple goat herder or something. He was obviously a great, inteligent man. The Arabs at the time and for several centuries afterwards were great, world leaders in science. The "science" in the Koran is obviously basic compared to modern science, Sea = salty, rivers not, must be barrier inbetween, can be concluded from simple observations. Nothing surprising there. The fact is if comets were described as icey you would use that as "proof", instead you ignore the fact that the Koran describes them as firey. There is nothing in the Koran, scientifically, that is modern science. Even this embreo talk could have been figured out from pre-islamic miscarrages or post mortem examinations.

Muslima · Joined: 13 Nov 2005 Posts: 1634

the kuran speaks about jinn (ghosts)...we muslims believe that they exist

the non-muslims didn't believe them, and many still don't
however the science has proved that ghosts do exsited through images of ultra violet light

kuran is not a scientific book but it does contian many scientific statements!

Dagger · Joined: 25 Apr 2005 Posts: 459 Location: Vancouver BC

Showboat wrote: You talk about Mohammad as "An illiterate man" like he was some simple goat herder or something. He was obviously a great, inteligent man. The Arabs at the time and for several centuries afterwards were great, world leaders in science. The "science" in the Koran is obviously basic compared to modern science, Sea = salty, rivers not, must be barrier inbetween, can be concluded from simple observations. Nothing surprising there. The fact is if comets were described as icey you would use that as "proof", instead you ignore the fact that the Koran describes them as firey. There is nothing in the Koran, scientifically, that is modern science. Even this embreo talk could have been figured out from pre-islamic miscarrages or post mortem examinations.

Not well the certainty that the Quran gives, and it describes HUNDREDS of situations, you cant say they can all be figured out. No one man or group of people at that time were that intelligent... Or are you saying they were? Because the knowledge is beyond intelligence of that time.