Political Crossfire Forums

Darth Tiberius · Joined: 19 Apr 2005 Posts: 2001 Location: Oxford

Deemoore wrote: Are you out of your frikkin mind?
Who would choose to be ostracized, persecuted and humiliated?
If you are this stupid then you deserve to be led around by the nose.
Being homosexual is not a choice it's a genetic roll of the dice.

I know a very religious woman who does not belief Jesus would make her son born gay. We are friends but, until sher accepts her son as is I won't speak to her.

My son told me tonight that he believes homosexuality is a choice.
I told him that I wish he had been born gay. I'm not gay but for gods sake .. I'm not an idiot.
Who would make this "choice"?

If you continue to persecute the children of god for what god has given them then I pray for your salvation.

http://www.familyresearchinst.org/FRR_02_07.html

Are left handed people choosing to write with the wrong hand?

Exactly. I'm bi. and genetically so. Proud of it.

Ozzone · Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 11:58 am Post subject: Re: I choose to be gay

Darth Tiberius wrote: Deemoore wrote: Are you out of your frikkin mind?
Who would choose to be ostracized, persecuted and humiliated?
If you are this stupid then you deserve to be led around by the nose.
Being homosexual is not a choice it's a genetic roll of the dice.

I know a very religious woman who does not belief Jesus would make her son born gay. We are friends but, until sher accepts her son as is I won't speak to her.

My son told me tonight that he believes homosexuality is a choice.
I told him that I wish he had been born gay. I'm not gay but for gods sake .. I'm not an idiot.
Who would make this "choice"?

If you continue to persecute the children of god for what god has given them then I pray for your salvation.

http://www.familyresearchinst.org/FRR_02_07.html

Are left handed people choosing to write with the wrong hand?

Exactly. I'm bi. and genetically so. Proud of it.

When did you realize this? I bet money it was after puberty.

Deemoore · Joined: 30 Oct 2004 Posts: 2448

Ignorance is a choice however.

F'losrix · Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 2:57 pm Post subject:

Pzatchok wrote: And I to did know a man who was gay by choice. He was a little confused. It took him a year or more to tell his wife and kids about his new relationship. He ended up bouncing back and forth between the wife and his new boy friend for a year then left her for him. He's still with the man but hes still looking at the girls also.
Actually, the person you speak of is apparently bisexual with stronger leanings toward men.

This is probably the most common mistake people make when considering issues of sexual orientation - the assumption that when a person stops pursuing heterosexual behavior that they have 'chosen' to turn gay. It isn't the behavior that determines whether or not someone is gay or straight. A person can live the bulk of their lives in a heterosexual relationship and still know the entire time that they have a homosexual orientation. If you're a guy doing it with women but fantasizing the whole time about other guys - guess what? You're still gay.

Are guys who have sex with other men while imprisoned but return to heterosexual behavior when released considered to have been gay, then turned straight? Of course not. Behavior is not the same thing as orientation. Orientation usually drives the behavior, but not always.

The question then becomes whether it is appropriate to demand that people who are gay must nonetheless pursue heterosexual relationships - most especially if their desire is to enter into a marital relationship.

Why force gay people to choose between their orientation and marriage?

Onevote · Joined: 18 Sep 2004 Posts: 1688 Location: Tampa, Florida

Deemoore wrote: Are you out of your frikkin mind?
Who would choose to be ostracized, persecuted and humiliated?
If you are this stupid then you deserve to be led around by the nose.
Being homosexual is not a choice it's a genetic roll of the dice.

I know a very religious woman who does not belief Jesus would make her son born gay. We are friends but, until sher accepts her son as is I won't speak to her.

My son told me tonight that he believes homosexuality is a choice.
I told him that I wish he had been born gay. I'm not gay but for gods sake .. I'm not an idiot.
Who would make this "choice"?

If you continue to persecute the children of god for what god has given them then I pray for your salvation.

http://www.familyresearchinst.org/FRR_02_07.html

Are left handed people choosing to write with the wrong hand? As a lefty, I don't think people understand what a crappy thing it is to be left handed. I think you are right about it not being a choice, I've known people who you could tell something was a little different from the time they were children, and turned out to be gay. The question that we should be asking ourselves is why does it matter what a persons orientation is?

Pzatchok · Joined: 15 Nov 2004 Posts: 7141

I personally don't care one way or the other about someones sexual proclivities.

I'm worried about his attitude towards his own son.

I also question his treatment of a so called friend.

I don't question his overall attitude. Its seen in many so called 'enlightened' ones. Think my way or be ostresized.

Ozzone · Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 4:44 pm Post subject:

Deemoore wrote: Ignorance is a choice however.

Yes it is, but when it comes to mixing lifestyle choices and politics, almost everyone is ignorant - even the gays.

callous · Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 4:46 pm Post subject:

Ozzone wrote: Deemoore wrote: Ignorance is a choice however.

Yes it is, but when it comes to mixing lifestyle choices and politics, almost everyone is ignorant - even the gays.

Whether someone chooses to be ignorant or not,.... whether or not they can marry is not a choice that can be taken away.

Eduffy80911 · Joined: 11 Dec 2005 Posts: 4541

Ozzone wrote: Deemoore wrote: Ignorance is a choice however.

Yes it is, but when it comes to mixing lifestyle choices and politics, almost everyone is ignorant - even the gays.

Good point. I've talked to gays who vote liberal solely because of their stance on gay marriage and gay rights in general. Evidently nothing else matters. I've gotta ask if they'd be happy if they were married in North Korea.

On the matter of choice, I'm sure some percentage of gays are so due to trauma or abuse, but generally it's got to be genetic. If someone tells me it's a choice I just ask them if they can remember agonizing over whether or not they wanted to be straight. What factors went into choosing to like women? Was it a close call?

callous · Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 4:50 pm Post subject:

Eduffy80911 wrote: Ozzone wrote: Deemoore wrote: Ignorance is a choice however.

Yes it is, but when it comes to mixing lifestyle choices and politics, almost everyone is ignorant - even the gays.

Good point. I've talked to gays who vote liberal solely because of their stance on gay marriage and gay rights in general. Evidently nothing else matters. I've gotta ask if they'd be happy if they were married in North Korea.

On the matter of choice, I'm sure some percentage of gays are so due to trauma or abuse, but generally it's got to be genetic. If someone tells me it's a choice I just ask them if they can remember agonizing over whether or not they wanted to be straight. What factors went into choosing to like women? Was it a close call?

The issue of marraige does not constitute a one issue voter. Just as the issue of blacks gaining their civil rights and the political candidates they picked persuent to those goals did not make them ignorant to the rest of the issues of they day.

Gay marraige is a huge, life changing, life affecting issue,...and its well worthy of those affected putting their eggs in one basket.

Ozzone · Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 4:55 pm Post subject:

callous wrote: Ozzone wrote: Deemoore wrote: Ignorance is a choice however.

Yes it is, but when it comes to mixing lifestyle choices and politics, almost everyone is ignorant - even the gays.

Whether someone chooses to be ignorant or not,.... whether or not they can marry is not a choice that can be taken away.

Yes it is. States are doing it all over the country. How many states have approved same-sex marriage vs. states that have banned it?

callous · Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 4:58 pm Post subject:

Ozzone wrote: callous wrote: Ozzone wrote: Deemoore wrote: Ignorance is a choice however.

Yes it is, but when it comes to mixing lifestyle choices and politics, almost everyone is ignorant - even the gays.

Whether someone chooses to be ignorant or not,.... whether or not they can marry is not a choice that can be taken away.

Yes it is. States are doing it all over the country. How many states have approved same-sex marriage vs. states that have banned it?

And how many states are preparing legislation for '06 to repeal those bans because of the reversal of public sentiment after the tide of conservative fear mongering has passed?

I know california is....

I am talking on principle. I live in Oregon. Oregon is one of the most progressive states in the Union. It has passed a gay marraige ban. Will it hold up for more than a year or two? Most likely not.

The work humanitarians do is for progress, ozzone,... not to protect the status quo.

Eduffy80911 · Joined: 11 Dec 2005 Posts: 4541

callous wrote: Eduffy80911 wrote: Ozzone wrote: Deemoore wrote: Ignorance is a choice however.

Yes it is, but when it comes to mixing lifestyle choices and politics, almost everyone is ignorant - even the gays.

Good point. I've talked to gays who vote liberal solely because of their stance on gay marriage and gay rights in general. Evidently nothing else matters. I've gotta ask if they'd be happy if they were married in North Korea.

On the matter of choice, I'm sure some percentage of gays are so due to trauma or abuse, but generally it's got to be genetic. If someone tells me it's a choice I just ask them if they can remember agonizing over whether or not they wanted to be straight. What factors went into choosing to like women? Was it a close call?

The issue of marraige does not constitute a one issue voter. Just as the issue of blacks gaining their civil rights and the political candidates they picked persuent to those goals did not make them ignorant to the rest of the issues of they day.

Gay marraige is a huge, life changing, life affecting issue,...and its well worthy of those affected putting their eggs in one basket.

Spoken like a good Democrat. Keep those blacks and gays in line. Any blacks or gays who vote Republican are traitors to the cause.

Ozzone · Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 5:05 pm Post subject:

callous wrote: And how many states are preparing legislation for '06 to repeal those bans because of the reversal of public sentiment after the tide of conservative fear mongering has passed?

Fine, get back to me then and let me know how the voting goes.

Quote: I know california is....

I still think it's ironic that the most liberal state in the country (well Massachusettes and Oregon might argue that) voted down same-sex marriage. Wasn't there enough hippies in Berkeley to pass it alone?

Quote: I am talking on principle. I live in Oregon. Oregon is one of the most progressive states in the Union. It has passed a gay marraige ban. Will it hold up for more than a year or two? Most likely not.

s*cks don't it. Damn liberals, I mean progressives, can't even pass it in their own state. You can talk principle all you want, I'll deal with reality. The majority of people do not want it. The federal government refuses to take the right away from the states because it does not infringe on the legal rights. When the Supreme Court rules that gay marriage is a legal right, then the states won't have a say anymore, but until then they have every say and we can see what they say.

Quote: The work humanitarians do is for progress, ozzone,... not to protect the status quo.

I don't always agree that progress means accepting every liberal idea as gospel, sorry.

F'losrix · Posted: Sun Jan 01, 2006 6:48 pm Post subject:

Ozzone wrote: The federal government refuses to take the right away from the states because it does not infringe on the legal rights. When the Supreme Court rules that gay marriage is a legal right, then the states won't have a say anymore, but until then they have every say and we can see what they say.
The court has already issued an opinion that marriage is a right. So the relevant questions are:

1) Does the court have the authority to speak for government as a whole in recognizing additional rights? Or is a constitutional amendment required?

2) The 9th & 10th amendments tell us that any rights not named are reserved to the people, and any powers not delegated to the federal government in the Constitution are reserved to the states or the people. One could construe the votes taken in various states as an indication that the people either do not consider marriage to be a right, or at the very least are content to place restrictions upon that right. It then becomes a matter of whether those restrictions are reasonable and promote a legitimate government interest; I am of the contrary opinion.

3) I would not be surprised if the Supreme Court refused to hear a case challenging state bans on gay marriage, as that could be viewed as usurpation of state powers by the federal government. Not that they haven't done it before - it was the court that cleared the way for interracial marriages.

4) Even if the court were to agree to hear a federal DOMA case, I think they are unlikely to rule against it, as it mostly offers protection to states from the "full faith & credit" clause of the Constitution with respect to an issue that is already supposed to be under the states' control, and not that of the federal government.

5) Whether the federal government has any business recognizing marriages at all is a thorny issue. I am tempted to say that they don't, but am willing to consider arguments pro & con.

All the legal stuff aside - is it fair or moral to deny marriage recognition to gay couples? That should be what drives the actions we pursue on the legal front. I am of the opinion that such denial is neither fair nor moral.

Valdimar · Joined: 12 Dec 2004 Posts: 711 Location: San Francisco

Deemoore-

I am gay and I am completely insulted at the entire approach you have made in this thread. You have your opinion. Great. Realize that people aren't going to agree with you. Ignoring people is extremely counterproductive to attempt them to understand your point.

Do I think it's a choice? No. However, I DO understand why others, especially extremely conservative heterosexuals, believe it IS a choice. There is no scientific evidence to back it up. Our word has to be taken that it's not a choice, and it's usually with a microscopic grain of salt or none at all.

I'd be delighted to devote my life to scientifcally proving homosexuality is genetic or an irreversible effect of the nuturing process, but science is not my specialty. Conservation and education are my only other options. It could be yours too, but you have proven throughout this thread that you can't do it effectively.

F'losrix · Posted: Mon Jan 02, 2006 6:33 pm Post subject:

Valdimar wrote: There is no scientific evidence to back it up.
Not entirely true. There are a number of studies that have gathered evidence suggesting there may at least be some biological, if not a genetic link to homosexuality. What there isn't, is absolute, conclusive scientific proof either way.

Valdimar · Joined: 12 Dec 2004 Posts: 711 Location: San Francisco

Skeptical Mystic wrote: What there isn't, is absolute, conclusive scientific proof either way.
That is what I meant, in fact. Thanks for pointing that out and making it more clear.

Creamxec · Posted: Tue Jan 03, 2006 10:43 pm Post subject: Re: I choose to be gay

Deemoore wrote: Are you out of your frikkin mind?
Who would choose to be ostracized, persecuted and humiliated?
If you are this stupid then you deserve to be led around by the nose.
Being homosexual is not a choice it's a genetic roll of the dice.

I know a very religious woman who does not belief Jesus would make her son born gay. We are friends but, until sher accepts her son as is I won't speak to her.

My son told me tonight that he believes homosexuality is a choice.
I told him that I wish he had been born gay. I'm not gay but for gods sake .. I'm not an idiot.
Who would make this "choice"?

If you continue to persecute the children of god for what god has given them then I pray for your salvation.

http://www.familyresearchinst.org/FRR_02_07.html

Are left handed people choosing to write with the wrong hand?

u are a horrible parent...why not just be proud of your son's strength and support whatever he does that does not hurt anyone...you are discouraging his self-confidence and showing him it is bad to be gay which your parents probably did to you.

yETII90 · Joined: 27 Nov 2005 Posts: 1484 Location: New York

Deemoore wrote: Are you out of your frikkin mind?
Who would choose to be ostracized, persecuted and humiliated?
If you are this stupid then you deserve to be led around by the nose.
Being homosexual is not a choice it's a genetic roll of the dice.

I know a very religious woman who does not belief Jesus would make her son born gay. We are friends but, until sher accepts her son as is I won't speak to her.

My son told me tonight that he believes homosexuality is a choice.
I told him that I wish he had been born gay. I'm not gay but for gods sake .. I'm not an idiot.
Who would make this "choice"?

If you continue to persecute the children of god for what god has given them then I pray for your salvation.

http://www.familyresearchinst.org/FRR_02_07.html

Are left handed people choosing to write with the wrong hand?

Dude you suck :lol:, hope your kid is older than 13 otherwise you just killed him man.

If you disagreed with the kid a simple, nice talk would have been sufficient. You didn't have to make him feel like a piece of sh*t