Political Crossfire Forums

[SPOTTEDGREENDUCK]

cassandrabandra wrote: SPOTTEDGREENDUCK wrote: At the end of the day, I feel that this is going to change Australia for the worst. We are a multicultral society but we need to stop immigration unless we have skills/trade shortages, we also need to look at where we are getting our migrants from. I live in a suburb where a common game I play is spot the white guy. I am normally it. I live down the road from a house that trains african migrants on adjusting to our culture, they stick together and form their own community in my neighbourhood. We are now slowly starting to have problems with their youth on crime, the local green grocer was closed down and is now quote "an african and middle eastern market". This is just ridiculous, my neighbourhood is turning into "Little Sudan" and its disenchanting. I don't mind living with these people however I don't want my neighbourhood to dramatically change because of it.

I can see where you're coming from. I'm a minority where I live too - this suburb has over 60% chinese - wealthy ones though. A trip to the local shopping centre is like visiting Hong Kong. Although thats a plus. Its a good suburb to live in if you've got teenage kids - the local high school compares with the best private schools, and the problems with youth here are virtually non existent.

The sticking together is an issue - we all do it. Its 'homosociability' - the tendency to associate with people who are the same as you - its one of the reasons why it is better to have diverse populations dispersed. You often find the better educated DO move into more 'white' neighbourhoods - and there are certainly those who don't weant to mix with their own kind - LOL - I've met plenty who don't want to because of the gossip in the smaller communities.

But you know something Duckie - a lot of them do want to mix with us rather than exclusively their own kind - I get so many invitations from people (ie Africans, Middle Easterners and some other ethnic groups - less so Chinese) - because they WANT me there - and they want to ask me about little things - like how our political system works etc. They want to be informed about the society they live in, and they want to be part of it ...

I don't know about the facility down the road from you - its probably an IHSS programme - which is why you get a concentration in your area. I won't comment on the ins or outs of these programmes - I personally think that there are different approaches that could be taken.

The crime issue - that is what I was kind of referring to with the kids who are in between - they have lost respect for their own culture, and want the freedom our children have, and a lot of conflicts come from this. Its really quite complex and the PARENTS are deeply distressed by what is happening... but they have no control. Their kids don't respect them in this society - because they take longer to adapt than the kids do. Centrelink have been trying to deal with some of the issues re income support - but this seems to exacerbate the problems on some other levels.

It may be good for local community members who have time and energy to get involved on a voluntary basis in some way ... depending on local issues. Parents are often concerned about how their kids are going at school, so homework classes after school would be appreciated by parents - although I'm not sure about how well they'd be appreciated by kids, sporting activities are good - especially soccer (and there may be funding for this), there may also be funding for swimming programmes. Encouraging kids to engage in skills building and positive activities rather than just hanging around is the best defence agaisnt juvenile crime - with any group - but these kids REALLY need stuff like that.

sorry to sound like a do gooder!

You bring up some valid points, you don't live at Sunnybank do you?
I do agree with the saying birds of a feather stick together, I don't think it is right however it is the way it is. I did a stint down at Holsworthy in the military prision for reasons which shall remain unknown and I noticed that the different ethnic groups stick together. In normal prision I have been led to believe that this is the case to, a white fella hanging around an aborigional is termed a "magpie". This is unfortunate for me because I like people for their character and I have friends from all walks of life and all cultures.

Why don't we just bring in national military service for all trouble making youth and turn them into well disaplined, reliable, patriotic Australians. I volunteered for the army when I was 17, I needed my father to sign the permission slip, it certainly didn't do me any harm. It will also strengthen our national security which will help incase we are invaded by a numerically superior force.

[cassandrabandra]

SPOTTEDGREENDUCK wrote:
You bring up some valid points, you don't live at Sunnybank do you?

LOL - not bad for a do gooder then? No I don't.

Quote:
I do agree with the saying birds of a feather stick together, I don't think it is right however it is the way it is. I did a stint down at Holsworthy in the military prision for reasons which shall remain unknown and I noticed that the different ethnic groups stick together. In normal prision I have been led to believe that this is the case to, a white fella hanging around an aborigional is termed a "magpie". This is unfortunate for me because I like people for their character and I have friends from all walks of life and all cultures.

its normal, but really, the more you have to do with people of 'other' groups the more you leave it behind. Thats why 'ghettoisation' is such bad news. People (including white Australians) don't get over their ethnic/whatever allegiances. I've seen it a lot with race, but also with gender. My children's generation were far more comfortable with having friendships with members of the opposite sex than my generation were. We didn't have boy friends as teenagers. only boyfriends.

Quote: Why don't we just bring in national military service for all trouble making youth and turn them into well disaplined, reliable, patriotic Australians. I volunteered for the army when I was 17, I needed my father to sign the permission slip, it certainly didn't do me any harm. It will also strengthen our national security which will help incase we are invaded by a numerically superior force.

Kids need to have something to get their teeth into - a challenge of some sort. There are a range of activities that could be suitable. All human beings need to feel as if they are valued, that they are doing something that has meaning. Sure, people will say this isn't true, but in actual fact if you don't have this in your life it costs you ... not always obvious HOW it costs you, but it does. Maybe self esteem, maybe the opportunity to grow and define yourself, maybe the respect of others. There really is no such thing as a free lunch.

[raf]

SPOTTEDGREENDUCK wrote: In terms of technological advancement, the aborigional people were inferior. I mean 40000 years to invent a stick that comes back, I'm not impressed. Personally I wouldn't be lazy and I would go and pick it up. If I was around for forty thousand years, I would have invented something activated by my mind that was able to cull an animal with the blink of my eye.

You obviously don’t understand Aboriginal culture very well. If you believe that the Aboriginals were technologically inferior, you are simply ignorant. Why are they so technologically inferior? Is it because they didn’t invent huge battleships or massive guns? You have to remember that Aboriginals only invented things that we’re useful to their lifestyle and what they needed. They didn’t need guns because they didn’t need to fight so often and small ships were sufficient for the travelling between nearby islands. They had no intention of finding a new place like the Europeans; therefore they didn’t need big ships. Boomerangs are useful; when they hunted they used them to kill birds and animals quickly as the boomerang can back if they missed. As for the offensive statement that they are lazy, well before the English came they walked to place to place. They didn’t use horses, so in that sense Europeans are pretty lazy. They never stayed in one area at a time as they new the land and new that it needed time to regrow, so they moved so not to over cultivate the land, creating the system of slash and burn before the Europeans did. On the other hand the English settled in one area and farmed there. Firstly many of the crops and livestock were not accustomed to Australian conditions. Secondly, they tended to overuse the land, not letting it regrow causing salination problems. They also used a lot of space and weren’t efficient in their use of the land unlike the Aboriginals. Therefore in this sense of agriculture, the Aboriginals are not inferior to the Europeans, in fact they are superior and more advanced.

SPOTTEDGREENDUCK wrote: Our country is in danger of becoming predominately muslim and our politics, culture and habitat will change to reflect this in the future if we don't stop it.

Don’t be stupid, we are not in danger of becoming Muslim or anything. Muslims make a very small percentage of our society and it isn’t even the fastest growing religion in Australia, Buddhism is. The issue is just being embellished by the media; stupid tabloids like The Daily Telegraph, where that stupid Liberal backbencher Danna Vale got her information about us being a Muslim country in 50 years. There’s some advice, don’t believe everything the Daily Telegraph says, it’s a tabloid. There is no threat, extremist Muslims are an extremely tiny minority here, and most Muslims don’t care and are happy with Australian society at the moment. Nothing is going to change; you will never be force to be a Muslim and you will not be force to live their life. However, don’t force them to live yours as well.

As for the riots, empathy is needed here. We have to understand the Lebanese culture here. Look at the history and current situation in Lebanon; it is marred by civil war and violence. It isn’t necessarily their fault; there are foreigners whom are aggressively getting involved in their affairs. However the point it’s that when they come here, they bring that cultural baggage with them. Even if they are a couple of generation, they learn and see this stuff from their parents or grandparents whom experienced this in Lebanon or anywhere else. The other factor is marginalisation. You may try to convince yourself that this isn’t true, but how would you know? You are white, Anglo-Saxon, part of the majority. Do you know what it is like being called a terrorist and made fun of because of your religion? As an Australian with Asian decent, I do sometimes feel this marginalisation, particularly living most of the year in Sydney where the Asian population are growing and people are getting angry. When I went to a friend’s place in the country and walked down the main street, I could feel people’s glares and see their frowns, like they were angry or something. They feel threatened and suffer from the human nature of xenophobia, being afraid of the unknown. I know this because I go to a boarding school with many country boys, who have grown up in a white Anglo-Saxon community hating Aboriginals and foreigners. However because they are forced to live with foreigners and Aboriginals, they learn to tolerate and learn, which we must all do. I am lucky in this sense; I have friends of all races and it doesn’t worry me that I am Asian in decent, all that matters is that we are all Australian and that is what we have in common. According to sociology, when a group of people feel marginalised and targeted, they tend to hang around people their own kinds who are going through the same thing. So here is where the problems arise. They start gangs and ghettos and with the history of their culture and the way they are being marginalised, they become violent as we have seen at Cronulla. Having said that, I don’t believe in violence or gang mentality, this isn’t an excuse for their actions. I do however, acknowledge that this is only a small minority of Lebanese; I have Lebanese friends who are not like that. So this is what I believe should be the solution, stop the problem at its root. No, not stopping them from coming in or forcing them to join the military, but by stoping the marginalisation. I know this will take time, but in a few generations we will see that no one will see themselves as anything else but Australian. Make foreigners feel welcome, invite them (but don’t force them) to join in Australian traditions and learn about theirs and respect it. Encourage them to mix, don’t alienate them, so they don’t start their own ghettos and gangs. Racism is a stain on Australia’s history, don’t make it worse; we can change it. Everyone can do it, start now! Don’t just stand there and do nothing, especially the youth. We are the future of this country, we can change it for the good, and the incident in Cronulla shall never be repeated again.

[cassandrabandra]

raf wrote: SPOTTEDGREENDUCK wrote: In terms of technological advancement, the aborigional people were inferior. I mean 40000 years to invent a stick that comes back, I'm not impressed. Personally I wouldn't be lazy and I would go and pick it up. If I was around for forty thousand years, I would have invented something activated by my mind that was able to cull an animal with the blink of my eye.

You obviously don’t understand Aboriginal culture very well. If you believe that the Aboriginals were technologically inferior, you are simply ignorant. Why are they so technologically inferior? Is it because they didn’t invent huge battleships or massive guns? You have to remember that Aboriginals only invented things that we’re useful to their lifestyle and what they needed. They didn’t need guns because they didn’t need to fight so often and small ships were sufficient for the travelling between nearby islands. They had no intention of finding a new place like the Europeans; therefore they didn’t need big ships. Boomerangs are useful; when they hunted they used them to kill birds and animals quickly as the boomerang can back if they missed. As for the offensive statement that they are lazy, well before the English came they walked to place to place. They didn’t use horses, so in that sense Europeans are pretty lazy. They never stayed in one area at a time as they new the land and new that it needed time to regrow, so they moved so not to over cultivate the land, creating the system of slash and burn before the Europeans did. On the other hand the English settled in one area and farmed there. Firstly many of the crops and livestock were not accustomed to Australian conditions. Secondly, they tended to overuse the land, not letting it regrow causing salination problems. They also used a lot of space and weren’t efficient in their use of the land unlike the Aboriginals. Therefore in this sense of agriculture, the Aboriginals are not inferior to the Europeans, in fact they are superior and more advanced.

SPOTTEDGREENDUCK wrote: Our country is in danger of becoming predominately muslim and our politics, culture and habitat will change to reflect this in the future if we don't stop it.

Don’t be stupid, we are not in danger of becoming Muslim or anything. Muslims make a very small percentage of our society and it isn’t even the fastest growing religion in Australia, Buddhism is. The issue is just being embellished by the media; stupid tabloids like The Daily Telegraph, where that stupid Liberal backbencher Danna Vale got her information about us being a Muslim country in 50 years. There’s some advice, don’t believe everything the Daily Telegraph says, it’s a tabloid. There is no threat, extremist Muslims are an extremely tiny minority here, and most Muslims don’t care and are happy with Australian society at the moment. Nothing is going to change; you will never be force to be a Muslim and you will not be force to live their life. However, don’t force them to live yours as well.

As for the riots, empathy is needed here. We have to understand the Lebanese culture here. Look at the history and current situation in Lebanon; it is marred by civil war and violence. It isn’t necessarily their fault; there are foreigners whom are aggressively getting involved in their affairs. However the point it’s that when they come here, they bring that cultural baggage with them. Even if they are a couple of generation, they learn and see this stuff from their parents or grandparents whom experienced this in Lebanon or anywhere else. The other factor is marginalisation. You may try to convince yourself that this isn’t true, but how would you know? You are white, Anglo-Saxon, part of the majority. Do you know what it is like being called a terrorist and made fun of because of your religion? As an Australian with Asian decent, I do sometimes feel this marginalisation, particularly living most of the year in Sydney where the Asian population are growing and people are getting angry. When I went to a friend’s place in the country and walked down the main street, I could feel people’s glares and see their frowns, like they were angry or something. They feel threatened and suffer from the human nature of xenophobia, being afraid of the unknown. I know this because I go to a boarding school with many country boys, who have grown up in a white Anglo-Saxon community hating Aboriginals and foreigners. However because they are forced to live with foreigners and Aboriginals, they learn to tolerate and learn, which we must all do. I am lucky in this sense; I have friends of all races and it doesn’t worry me that I am Asian in decent, all that matters is that we are all Australian and that is what we have in common. According to sociology, when a group of people feel marginalised and targeted, they tend to hang around people their own kinds who are going through the same thing. So here is where the problems arise. They start gangs and ghettos and with the history of their culture and the way they are being marginalised, they become violent as we have seen at Cronulla. Having said that, I don’t believe in violence or gang mentality, this isn’t an excuse for their actions. I do however, acknowledge that this is only a small minority of Lebanese; I have Lebanese friends who are not like that. So this is what I believe should be the solution, stop the problem at its root. No, not stopping them from coming in or forcing them to join the military, but by stoping the marginalisation. I know this will take time, but in a few generations we will see that no one will see themselves as anything else but Australian. Make foreigners feel welcome, invite them (but don’t force them) to join in Australian traditions and learn about theirs and respect it. Encourage them to mix, don’t alienate them, so they don’t start their own ghettos and gangs. Racism is a stain on Australia’s history, don’t make it worse; we can change it. Everyone can do it, start now! Don’t just stand there and do nothing, especially the youth. We are the future of this country, we can change it for the good, and the incident in Cronulla shall never be repeated again.

excellent posts, and good to see a POV from someone who has experience of being an outsider in Oz. Mentioning baggage is also important ... you don't lose it so easily when you feel like an outsider.