Political Crossfire Forums

[SPOTTEDGREENDUCK]

Just interested, thats all.

[entity]

Because Australians are s**t scared they will be percieved as a racist nation.

None of this s**t would have started had the authorities and community and cultural elders taken into account that there was a probelm to begin with.
Young Lebanese kids going to the beach, with no intenton to swim, yet yelling lewd obsenities to other beach goers. Mostly girls.
If also, you look at the group that was harassing the Lebanese men, you will notice that these are not RACE riots.

A race riot would assume that there would have to be one race aginst another in conflice. This was not the case.

There were many, many races against the actions of one group.

Also....this has been the most humiliating, ridiculous display of juvinile deliquency, and should NEVER had got to this stage. Drukards, and a lack of brains brought the stupid slogans and fist swinging **** to a brawl.

Police were afrid to do something at an earlier stage for fear that the Lebanses Elders would regard them as racist.
So it all spans of fear of racism only to be viewed as the one thing they originally tried to avoid.

Humiliating that our police force and diverse community cannot take some damned control over a bunch of kids....drunk stupid mis informed jaded kids.

Now it is being requested that we remove the Australian Flag from the beach, where it has been for a very long time...incase it may offend.

I ask you...

Where the f**k will this end..? Howard is the pu**y of all nations at the moment.

There was a problem on the beach for a long time, and it was left to fester, and there is noone to blame but the Community Elders and Police and Religious Leaders of the area...they bloody well knew too!

What did they expect!

[cassandrabandra]

SPOTTEDGREENDUCK wrote: Just interested, thats all.

I thought it was over - thats all.

The issue is still important to me ... but you know what - I think the biggest threat facing Australia is yobbism.

It can be used to effect on any outgroup, its vicious and nasty and disrespectful to everyone. It is often associated with drunkenness, but not always, its proponents are angry bored young men with no meaning in their lives, and they can belong to any ethnic group.

[entity]

cassandrabandra wrote: SPOTTEDGREENDUCK wrote: Just interested, thats all.

I thought it was over - thats all.

The issue is still important to me ... but you know what - I think the biggest threat facing Australia is yobbism.

It can be used to effect on any outgroup, its vicious and nasty and disrespectful to everyone. It is often associated with drunkenness, but not always, its proponents are angry bored young men with no meaning in their lives, and they can belong to any ethnic group.

:lol:

[SPOTTEDGREENDUCK]

cassandrabandra wrote: SPOTTEDGREENDUCK wrote: Just interested, thats all.

I thought it was over - thats all.

The issue is still important to me ... but you know what - I think the biggest threat facing Australia is yobbism.

It can be used to effect on any outgroup, its vicious and nasty and disrespectful to everyone. It is often associated with drunkenness, but not always, its proponents are angry bored young men with no meaning in their lives, and they can belong to any ethnic group.

I bought it up because I hadn't seen anyone comment on it.
Well at least yobboism is Australian and for that I am glad. Metrosexualism is choking our decent young men, makeup, hair gel, pink shirts, I mean whats next? Grand father would be turning in his grave. Its bloody horrible and unaustralian, shows like queer eye and the public image that being a pretty boy is cool make me sick. Whatever happened to the bronze anzac, VB drinking, blue truckie singlet, stubbies, footy playing, tough, honest, solid, flip flop wearing with the winnie blues, ute driving decent aussie bloke. This is who we are, we shouldn't become show ponies.

At least these guys down Cronulla displayed national pride, with the flags and the singing of Australian songs, protesting in force against the bashing of "Australians". I fought for the flag and I have no anger or resentment to these young men, I just believe that it should never have gotton to that stage. People think this was a poor day for Australia, I believe it was a day of national awaking that will help forge our still young cultral identity.

My family has been in Australia for many years however my own grandmother was born o/s and came out when she was three. If you were born in Australia then you are Australian, if your parents are from elsewhere and you don't like it here, piss off. Don't go around in ethnic gangs trying to bash people who are Australian, after all this is Australia and it is the aussie spirit not to take it lying down.

[cassandrabandra]

SPOTTEDGREENDUCK wrote:
I bought it up because I hadn't seen anyone comment on it.
Well at least yobboism is Australian and for that I am glad. Metrosexualism is choking our decent young men, makeup, hair gel, pink shirts, I mean whats next? Grand father would be turning in his grave. Its bloody horrible and unaustralian, shows like queer eye and the public image that being a pretty boy is cool make me sick. Whatever happened to the bronze anzac, VB drinking, blue truckie singlet, stubbies, footy playing, tough, honest, solid, flip flop wearing with the winnie blues, ute driving decent aussie bloke. This is who we are, we shouldn't become show ponies.

I don't think they'd get girlfriends.

Quote: At least these guys down Cronulla displayed national pride, with the flags and the singing of Australian songs, protesting in force against the bashing of "Australians". I fought for the flag and I have no anger or resentment to these young men, I just believe that it should never have gotton to that stage. People think this was a poor day for Australia, I believe it was a day of national awaking that will help forge our still young cultral identity.

they were a disgrace. They beat up anyone who looked like they were from the wrong ethnic group, whether male or female. I know our country has a long history of victimising minority groups. Apart from feeding aboriginals poisoned flour and going out and hunting them, we murdered chinese gold miners, and Italian and Slav miners as recently as 1934 in Kalgoorlie.

I also know that gangs of thugs of any ethnic group should be dealt with, but not by drunken vigilantes who think beating up women is sport.

BTW. in the fifties and sixties there were places where Australian girls didn't go because of Italian boys, and Greek boys ...and there were also places you didn't go because of pommie skinheads in the seventies.

Quote: My family has been in Australia for many years however my own grandmother was born o/s and came out when she was three. If you were born in Australia then you are Australian, if your parents are from elsewhere and you don't like it here, piss off. Don't go around in ethnic gangs trying to bash people who are Australian, after all this is Australia and it is the aussie spirit not to take it lying down.

if you want to go there, my family have been in this country since 1831. I have as much right to expect you to go back from where you came - looking at you being only third generation - you may well be descended from migrant larrikins who were bad news when I was young.

[Plato & Socrates]

Come on Aussies get a grip. Has a Pom who’s visited that convict island a few times I can tell you as we all know, Australia has had a nasty undercurrent of racism running through its veins for a long time. With the treatment of the aborigines I piss myself laughing at the Sydney boys and other Australians complaining that “its our country” type slogan mentality or “my grandfather came here and made Australia” instead they should chant what there granddads did to the aborigines, we all know how Australia was founded and what was done to make it a reality. If they said that as well I might take them more seriously. These Arabs, most of them were Lebanese. Those thugs what done the attacking were even beating up people from a European Mediterranean background because they were slightly darker than white, have black hair and brown eyes, and didn’t look northern European white. Soon they’ll be chanting “rights for whites” and saying things like “know body addresses our concerns and needs” and “the foreigners get everything” How dumb is that?

[cassandrabandra]

Plato & Socrates wrote: Come on Aussies get a grip. Has a Pom who’s visited that convict island a few times I can tell you as we all know, Australia has had a nasty undercurrent of racism running through its veins for a long time. With the treatment of the aborigines I piss myself laughing at the Sydney boys and other Australians complaining that “its our country” type slogan mentality or “my grandfather came here and made Australia” instead they should chant what there granddads did to the aborigines, we all know how Australia was founded and what was done to make it a reality. If they said that as well I might take them more seriously. These Arabs, most of them were Lebanese. Those thugs what done the attacking were even beating up people from a European Mediterranean background because they were slightly darker than white, have black hair and brown eyes, and didn’t look northern European white. Soon they’ll be chanting “rights for whites” and saying things like “know body addresses our concerns and needs” and “the foreigners get everything” How dumb is that?

LOL - they do that already.

And you are absolutely right - we are an incredibly racist society - take a look at the White Australia Policy that defined our nation for most of the last century, my parents generation refused to buy Japanese cars because of the war, but we can be very open and accepting of others as well.

But if Duckie here wants to pull rank on second generation middle eastern migrants, I'll pull rank on him.

[SPOTTEDGREENDUCK]

cassandrabandra wrote: SPOTTEDGREENDUCK wrote:
I bought it up because I hadn't seen anyone comment on it.
Well at least yobboism is Australian and for that I am glad. Metrosexualism is choking our decent young men, makeup, hair gel, pink shirts, I mean whats next? Grand father would be turning in his grave. Its bloody horrible and unaustralian, shows like queer eye and the public image that being a pretty boy is cool make me sick. Whatever happened to the bronze anzac, VB drinking, blue truckie singlet, stubbies, footy playing, tough, honest, solid, flip flop wearing with the winnie blues, ute driving decent aussie bloke. This is who we are, we shouldn't become show ponies.

I don't think they'd get girlfriends.

Who cares if they don't get girlfriends? If my future daughter god forbid bought home a garnier fructus australian idol wanka, I would boot his ass out of the door. We are a dying breed, blokes but we're going to come back in a big way.

Quote: At least these guys down Cronulla displayed national pride, with the flags and the singing of Australian songs, protesting in force against the bashing of "Australians". I fought for the flag and I have no anger or resentment to these young men, I just believe that it should never have gotton to that stage. People think this was a poor day for Australia, I believe it was a day of national awaking that will help forge our still young cultral identity.

they were a disgrace. They beat up anyone who looked like they were from the wrong ethnic group, whether male or female. I know our country has a long history of victimising minority groups. Apart from feeding aboriginals poisoned flour and going out and hunting them, we murdered chinese gold miners, and Italian and Slav miners as recently as 1934 in Kalgoorlie.

Quote: They were not a disgrace, they were sticking up for what they believed in, remember we did not start this. For years down in Sydney we have been getting bashed, its about time we stood together. There are better ways of dealing with it though it has been a wake up call for the authorities because now they know. Violence begets violence, what do they expect?
I remember seeing this guy on the news, he was a member of a lebanese gang and he said they were willing to forget about what happened at Cronulla, well from a tactical stand point, they have no choice. They got their asses kicked. You make rash generalisations about the four so called minority groups above. I mean aborigionals, you ever heard of colonisation? They were taken over by a superior force, there have been cases of aborigionals killing white settlers (this is what caused the Myall Creek massacre) and even canibalism. As with the other groups, well work on the gold fields was tough, anyone was subject to murder, it wasn't always necessarially because of your ethnic background. I have italian in me and I don't feel any persecution towards myself or my family. I do however consider myself to be Australian first and foremost, I fought on the frontline for my country, I am as proud as they come.

I also know that gangs of thugs of any ethnic group should be dealt with, but not by drunken vigilantes who think beating up women is sport.

Quote: I don't agree with violence against women, women are non combatants however, I can see why this did occur as this has happened on the other side of the fence as well. Plus, there are women out there who are just as formidible in their beliefs and hatred towards us that can inflict a lot of pain and devastation. This has been going on for over six years! SIX YEARS! for godsakes. That is why vigilatism took control, the authorities have been playing it down, at least now they are awake. These people hate you for who you are, they mistake our kindness for weakness. Some of them are willing to negotiate and find an end to this bs but they can't control some of their hard core fundalmentilists. Lord Baden Powell said be prepared and that is what we should do, be prepared to do whatever it takes for peace without sacrificing our beliefs in the process.

BTW. in the fifties and sixties there were places where Australian girls didn't go because of Italian boys, and Greek boys ...and there were also places you didn't go because of pommie skinheads in the seventies.

Quote: I realise this but these people still fit into the general scheme of things, they didn't "hate" us and want us to become something we are not. Our country is in danger of becoming predominately muslim and our politics, culture and habitat will change to reflect this in the future if we don't stop it.

Quote: My family has been in Australia for many years however my own grandmother was born o/s and came out when she was three. If you were born in Australia then you are Australian, if your parents are from elsewhere and you don't like it here, piss off. Don't go around in ethnic gangs trying to bash people who are Australian, after all this is Australia and it is the aussie spirit not to take it lying down.

if you want to go there, my family have been in this country since 1831. I have as much right to expect you to go back from where you came - looking at you being only third generation - you may well be descended from migrant larrikins who were bad news when I was young. Quote: Quote: Quote: [quote]

Quote: Alright, I didn't know we were having a dick measuring contest, I said one grandparent was born o/s, my other grandparents family go way back as free settlers in the 1800's. I fought for my country, I don't say I am Iish Australian or Italian Australian. I am as Aussie as they come, my great grandfather stormed the beach at Gallipoli, my grandfather was in WW2, my dad was a national serviceman who served with distinction. I did seven years in the army with 3 tours o/s.

[cassandrabandra]

SPOTTEDGREENDUCK wrote:
Who cares if they don't get girlfriends? If my future daughter god forbid bought home a garnier fructus australian idol wanka, I would boot his ass out of the door. We are a dying breed, blokes but we're going to come back in a big way.

I note you said future daughter. LOL. you've got a lot to learn.


Quote: They were not a disgrace, they were sticking up for what they believed in, remember we did not start this. For years down in Sydney we have been getting bashed, its about time we stood together. There are better ways of dealing with it though it has been a wake up call for the authorities because now they know. Violence begets violence, what do they expect?

yes, there have been incidents - but how does this address the issue? as you yourself said, violence begets violence.

Quote:
I remember seeing this guy on the news, he was a member of a lebanese gang and he said they were willing to forget about what happened at Cronulla, well from a tactical stand point, they have no choice. They got their asses kicked. You make rash generalisations about the four so called minority groups above. I mean aborigionals, you ever heard of colonisation? They were taken over by a superior force, there have been cases of aborigionals killing white settlers (this is what caused the Myall Creek massacre) and even canibalism. As with the other groups, well work on the gold fields was tough, anyone was subject to murder, it wasn't always necessarially because of your ethnic background. I have italian in me and I don't feel any persecution towards myself or my family. I do however consider myself to be Australian first and foremost, I fought on the frontline for my country, I am as proud as they come.


yes, at times aborigines did kill settlers. funny that, since they were taking their land from them. The 1934 riots WERE about ''race' - or at least ethnicity. you want to look into that. There was plenty of issues between different groups in the past. Many of the 'reffos' didn't fit in well to start with - and certainly among my parents generation very anglo attitudes still exist.

Quote: I don't agree with violence against women, women are non combatants however, I can see why this did occur as this has happened on the other side of the fence as well. Plus, there are women out there who are just as formidible in their beliefs and hatred towards us that can inflict a lot of pain and devastation. This has been going on for over six years! SIX YEARS! for godsakes. That is why vigilatism took control, the authorities have been playing it down, at least now they are awake. These people hate you for who you are, they mistake our kindness for weakness. Some of them are willing to negotiate and find an end to this bs but they can't control some of their hard core fundalmentilists. Lord Baden Powell said be prepared and that is what we should do, be prepared to do whatever it takes for peace without sacrificing our beliefs in the process.

I'd like more details on the six years you've had to put up with stuff. And it might help you to try and put yourself in their shoes sometime too. I'm also not sure why you are referring to these guys as 'combatants' or the women as 'non combatants'. This is not a war. If you want to give criminal acts the status of a war, or criminals the status of soldiers, you demean yourself.

The clashes that exist now between newer arrivals (and interestingly enough, most of these are the ones who grew up here, not the ones who grew up overseas) and established groups is nothing new - I grew up at a time when poms were regarded as filthy sissies, when we were scared to go into the wog part of town. I did research on Australian attitudes to Indo chinese refugees in the late seventies. These white supremacists are the ideological descendents of Jack Van Tongeren.

what is different is the impact of the global situation, where we have far more refugees and displaced people, and increasing levels of representations of these people as part of a group that wish to harm us (most don't), and a very different economy.

There are of course other factors at work - too complex to go into here ... but taking an openly hostile stance to an entire group of people because of the actions of some only exacerbates the problem.

re the Cronulla incident. There are specific factors that may have contributed to that - and they come from ignorance. I could go on a bit, about that - but its a long one, so I'll leave it.

The ignorance is on both sides, I might add. In all honesty though I think the climate of the times also contribute to some of these guys reading the worst into others actions, rather than giving them the benefit of the doubt. You have to remember Duckie, we are living in a time when a teenager on a train believes he has the right to pull a forty something year old woman's headscarf off her head and tell her she's a f***ing terrorist - without stopping to consider that the reason she is here is because she was trying to escape terrorism. Of course, this is NOT a one way street.

The rioters should be charged, and so of course should the lebs who rioted. They broke the law. simple as that. we live in a civilized country, that kind of behaviour is against the law, no matter who you are.

Quote: I realise this but these people still fit into the general scheme of things, they didn't "hate" us and want us to become something we are not. Our country is in danger of becoming predominately muslim and our politics, culture and habitat will change to reflect this in the future if we don't stop it.

The transition into our culture is more difficult now, despite lip service to multiculturalism and some of the best comprehensive english language programmes in the world. (and satellite TV is a major hindrance to people learning English, and probably, to acculturation as well) ... but these are not the first migrants who have not 'adapted' and learnt english - or let go of their own culture. Eventually they do mix in, but it can take several generations - and to be honest, sicilian and portuguese catholicism in the fifties and sixties was very little different from the culture of the lebanese refugees who came her in the eighties - it was just at a different time, and coming into a different world.

If anything - the kind of rhetoric coming out now is more likely to make new communities more insular than less. You want us to grow into separate communities hating each other and forever being suspicious of the other - like you see between blacks and white in southern US? If so, talk like this. And remember that a lot of the Lebanese here are christians. We have our laws, we are a secular society. we need to guard against religion moving into the judicial sphere - regardless of what that religion is, because its a backward step.

I know many Muslims in this country - and they don't hate us - they value the friendships they have with Australians, but unfortunately we are not the friendly people we believe ourselves to be, hatred and distrust is a two way street.



Quote: Alright, I didn't know we were having a dick measuring contest, I said one grandparent was born o/s, my other grandparents family go way back as free settlers in the 1800's. I fought for my country, I don't say I am Iish Australian or Italian Australian. I am as Aussie as they come, my great grandfather stormed the beach at Gallipoli, my grandfather was in WW2, my dad was a national serviceman who served with distinction. I did seven years in the army with 3 tours o/s. [/quote]

I'm not interested in measuring dicks. I understand these appendages are very important to men, but to women they are only relevant if she is in a relationship with, or sexually interested in the owner of said dick. I don't actually think dicks make the world go round - although I will excuse people who think so, looking at the current crop of world rulers.


You stated your grandmother came here when she was three - this would make you a darned sight less australian to me, than the lebs are to you. Where is the cut off point? who should be here and who should not?

My family's blood was shed in the Great War and WWII - my father was at Ruin Ridge. One of those brave Aussies in your quote from Rommel. War disgusted him. He'd seen enough of it, and being on the Nino Bixio taught him what leaders really think of the troops. There is a lot of my family's blood in the sand at Gallipoli too.

Those men did not fight so that drunken yobs could give kids beer and stir them up to beat up women and ambulance drivers. They stood for a different Australia. It was still a racist Australia, where even catholics were second class citizens, but it was one where certain principles were still important.

These yobs have no principles. They have no respect for themselves or for anyone. most of that mob (except the white supremacists who were egging them on) would have just as happily attacked the police called to an out of control schoolies party by the neighbours.

This is not what Australia is about, and seriously Duckie - it is important that THIS is turned around as much as anything else - because it is this behaviour that weakens us as a people.

We won't be able to get away from multiculturalism - with the global situation as it is, by closing our borders and resurrecting white Australia we would be asking for trouble for our children and grandchildren. What we need to do is build an Australian form of multiculturalism that works - that doesn't fall into the pitfalls that other nations have done. In hindsight, the White Australia Policy has given us an advantage, because we aren't very far down that road yet, so we can learn from the mistakes of others, and I know there are many Muslim leaders who do want to work towards building a secular multicultural society where human beings are respected, their rights are enshrined in law, and the expression of cultural or religious identity is about personal choice.

We will also be having problems with African migrants too - including the christian ones if we don't start addressing this problem now. Many people I know from various African communities are concerned about the issue of youth behaviour - they see it as very important especially in view of what happened in cronulla - but they can't work on it alone - it has to take a whole community approach.

I believe it can be done, but not if we let fear, hostility and hatred inform our decisions.

[SPOTTEDGREENDUCK]

cassandrabandra wrote: SPOTTEDGREENDUCK wrote:
Who cares if they don't get girlfriends? If my future daughter god forbid bought home a garnier fructus australian idol wanka, I would boot his ass out of the door. We are a dying breed, blokes but we're going to come back in a big way.

I note you said future daughter. LOL. you've got a lot to learn.


Quote: They were not a disgrace, they were sticking up for what they believed in, remember we did not start this. For years down in Sydney we have been getting bashed, its about time we stood together. There are better ways of dealing with it though it has been a wake up call for the authorities because now they know. Violence begets violence, what do they expect?

yes, there have been incidents - but how does this address the issue? as you yourself said, violence begets violence.

Quote:
I remember seeing this guy on the news, he was a member of a lebanese gang and he said they were willing to forget about what happened at Cronulla, well from a tactical stand point, they have no choice. They got their asses kicked. You make rash generalisations about the four so called minority groups above. I mean aborigionals, you ever heard of colonisation? They were taken over by a superior force, there have been cases of aborigionals killing white settlers (this is what caused the Myall Creek massacre) and even canibalism. As with the other groups, well work on the gold fields was tough, anyone was subject to murder, it wasn't always necessarially because of your ethnic background. I have italian in me and I don't feel any persecution towards myself or my family. I do however consider myself to be Australian first and foremost, I fought on the frontline for my country, I am as proud as they come.


yes, at times aborigines did kill settlers. funny that, since they were taking their land from them. The 1934 riots WERE about ''race' - or at least ethnicity. you want to look into that. There was plenty of issues between different groups in the past. Many of the 'reffos' didn't fit in well to start with - and certainly among my parents generation very anglo attitudes still exist.

Quote: I don't agree with violence against women, women are non combatants however, I can see why this did occur as this has happened on the other side of the fence as well. Plus, there are women out there who are just as formidible in their beliefs and hatred towards us that can inflict a lot of pain and devastation. This has been going on for over six years! SIX YEARS! for godsakes. That is why vigilatism took control, the authorities have been playing it down, at least now they are awake. These people hate you for who you are, they mistake our kindness for weakness. Some of them are willing to negotiate and find an end to this bs but they can't control some of their hard core fundalmentilists. Lord Baden Powell said be prepared and that is what we should do, be prepared to do whatever it takes for peace without sacrificing our beliefs in the process.

I'd like more details on the six years you've had to put up with stuff. And it might help you to try and put yourself in their shoes sometime too. I'm also not sure why you are referring to these guys as 'combatants' or the women as 'non combatants'. This is not a war. If you want to give criminal acts the status of a war, or criminals the status of soldiers, you demean yourself.

The clashes that exist now between newer arrivals (and interestingly enough, most of these are the ones who grew up here, not the ones who grew up overseas) and established groups is nothing new - I grew up at a time when poms were regarded as filthy sissies, when we were scared to go into the wog part of town. I did research on Australian attitudes to Indo chinese refugees in the late seventies. These white supremacists are the ideological descendents of Jack Van Tongeren.

what is different is the impact of the global situation, where we have far more refugees and displaced people, and increasing levels of representations of these people as part of a group that wish to harm us (most don't), and a very different economy.

There are of course other factors at work - too complex to go into here ... but taking an openly hostile stance to an entire group of people because of the actions of some only exacerbates the problem.

re the Cronulla incident. There are specific factors that may have contributed to that - and they come from ignorance. I could go on a bit, about that - but its a long one, so I'll leave it.

The ignorance is on both sides, I might add. In all honesty though I think the climate of the times also contribute to some of these guys reading the worst into others actions, rather than giving them the benefit of the doubt. You have to remember Duckie, we are living in a time when a teenager on a train believes he has the right to pull a forty something year old woman's headscarf off her head and tell her she's a f***ing terrorist - without stopping to consider that the reason she is here is because she was trying to escape terrorism. Of course, this is NOT a one way street.

The rioters should be charged, and so of course should the lebs who rioted. They broke the law. simple as that. we live in a civilized country, that kind of behaviour is against the law, no matter who you are.

Quote: I realise this but these people still fit into the general scheme of things, they didn't "hate" us and want us to become something we are not. Our country is in danger of becoming predominately muslim and our politics, culture and habitat will change to reflect this in the future if we don't stop it.

The transition into our culture is more difficult now, despite lip service to multiculturalism and some of the best comprehensive english language programmes in the world. (and satellite TV is a major hindrance to people learning English, and probably, to acculturation as well) ... but these are not the first migrants who have not 'adapted' and learnt english - or let go of their own culture. Eventually they do mix in, but it can take several generations - and to be honest, sicilian and portuguese catholicism in the fifties and sixties was very little different from the culture of the lebanese refugees who came her in the eighties - it was just at a different time, and coming into a different world.

If anything - the kind of rhetoric coming out now is more likely to make new communities more insular than less. You want us to grow into separate communities hating each other and forever being suspicious of the other - like you see between blacks and white in southern US? If so, talk like this. And remember that a lot of the Lebanese here are christians. We have our laws, we are a secular society. we need to guard against religion moving into the judicial sphere - regardless of what that religion is, because its a backward step.

I know many Muslims in this country - and they don't hate us - they value the friendships they have with Australians, but unfortunately we are not the friendly people we believe ourselves to be, hatred and distrust is a two way street.



Quote: Alright, I didn't know we were having a dick measuring contest, I said one grandparent was born o/s, my other grandparents family go way back as free settlers in the 1800's. I fought for my country, I don't say I am Iish Australian or Italian Australian. I am as Aussie as they come, my great grandfather stormed the beach at Gallipoli, my grandfather was in WW2, my dad was a national serviceman who served with distinction. I did seven years in the army with 3 tours o/s.

I'm not interested in measuring dicks. I understand these appendages are very important to men, but to women they are only relevant if she is in a relationship with, or sexually interested in the owner of said dick. I don't actually think dicks make the world go round - although I will excuse people who think so, looking at the current crop of world rulers.


You stated your grandmother came here when she was three - this would make you a darned sight less australian to me, than the lebs are to you. Where is the cut off point? who should be here and who should not?

My family's blood was shed in the Great War and WWII - my father was at Ruin Ridge. One of those brave Aussies in your quote from Rommel. War disgusted him. He'd seen enough of it, and being on the Nino Bixio taught him what leaders really think of the troops. There is a lot of my family's blood in the sand at Gallipoli too.

Those men did not fight so that drunken yobs could give kids beer and stir them up to beat up women and ambulance drivers. They stood for a different Australia. It was still a racist Australia, where even catholics were second class citizens, but it was one where certain principles were still important.

These yobs have no principles. They have no respect for themselves or for anyone. most of that mob (except the white supremacists who were egging them on) would have just as happily attacked the police called to an out of control schoolies party by the neighbours.

This is not what Australia is about, and seriously Duckie - it is important that THIS is turned around as much as anything else - because it is this behaviour that weakens us as a people.

We won't be able to get away from multiculturalism - with the global situation as it is, by closing our borders and resurrecting white Australia we would be asking for trouble for our children and grandchildren. What we need to do is build an Australian form of multiculturalism that works - that doesn't fall into the pitfalls that other nations have done. In hindsight, the White Australia Policy has given us an advantage, because we aren't very far down that road yet, so we can learn from the mistakes of others, and I know there are many Muslim leaders who do want to work towards building a secular multicultural society where human beings are respected, their rights are enshrined in law, and the expression of cultural or religious identity is about personal choice.

We will also be having problems with African migrants too - including the christian ones if we don't start addressing this problem now. Many people I know from various African communities are concerned about the issue of youth behaviour - they see it as very important especially in view of what happened in cronulla - but they can't work on it alone - it has to take a whole community approach.

I believe it can be done, but not if we let fear, hostility and hatred inform our decisions.[/quote]

Ok, all I hear above is a bunch of rambling bs, some of it makes sense but on the whole you are going on with a do gooder try to keep everyone happy attitude, it is noble but it doesn't work.

The bottom line is it should have been prevented, however it was because of a lack of appropiate action taken by the relevant authorities that this happened. At least now, these trouble making idiots will realise we do fight fire with fire. Families with children who were playing at the time of the incidents said they felt the safest they had felt for months.

Most of the minorities are good people, I have travelled extensively through the middle east and I even dabbled in Islam for a while. I did extensive courses in government on Islam and other issues when I was working for a government department. Most of the muslims here are fine and you are right that most of the trouble makers are actually born in Australia. Maybe, we should ship them off to Beirut for six months and see how they like it there.

I have seen war so no need to lecture me. What happened at Cronulla was an act of patriotism, if you don't choose to become an aussie, learn the lingo and adapt to our society, then piss off. I don't mind if you bring traditions and cultures different from our own, it is enlightning and different, however this is Australia not Australiastan. The vast majority of us do not want to change our culture, WE ARE NOT A MUSLIM NATION. Nor will we ever be. Muslims need to respect that, in exchange they should be able to practice their religion peacefully without prejudice. I certainly do not want to see what has happened in France happening here in five years time and thats where we are headed. You are making the mistake of being to nice, people mistake kindness for weakness and will walk over us.

You took the dick measuring thing literally. You really should do stand up because your debating is all over the shop and deserves a C at the most.
I have four grandparents, one was born o/s, you do the maths, I was just stating that I know what immigrants go through having been quite closely related to one, I have elements of my family that have been in Australia for over 150 years, I have had two family members in Australian Olympic teams. My brother played soccer for Australia in the ninties for f sakes but honestly who cares?

People should not be persecuted for their beliefs in this country however, we should not change our beliefs to accommadate them. I am sick of minority groups given preferential treatment over the "slient majority".
You would be amazed at how many people share my views, out of the average Australian.

[Ch33kY]

cassandrabandra wrote: SPOTTEDGREENDUCK wrote: Just interested, thats all.

I thought it was over - thats all.

The issue is still important to me ... but you know what - I think the biggest threat facing Australia is yobbism.

It can be used to effect on any outgroup, its vicious and nasty and disrespectful to everyone. It is often associated with drunkenness, but not always, its proponents are angry bored young men with no meaning in their lives, and they can belong to any ethnic group.

Spot on!

Yobbism Vs Wogism basically. Both are essentially elements of Australian Chav Culture.

[Ch33kY]

SPOTTEDGREENDUCK wrote:
My brother played soccer for Australia in the ninties for f sakes but honestly who cares?


Who is your brother, and what club(s) did/does he play for?

SPOTTEDGREENDUCK wrote:
You would be amazed at how many people share my views, out of the average Australian.


I'm not really amazed but the numbers. That's why it inevitable that some form of racial riots would occur, which they did in Cronulla. On that day we say the 'true blue' drunk White Anglo-Saxon Protestants conflict with disrespectful ethnic gangs.

To consider one 'in the right' or 'better than the other' is absurd. Both are a disgrace and neither represent the Australia that I live in.

[SPOTTEDGREENDUCK]

Ch33kY wrote: SPOTTEDGREENDUCK wrote:
My brother played soccer for Australia in the ninties for f sakes but honestly who cares?


Who is your brother, and what club(s) did/does he play for?

SPOTTEDGREENDUCK wrote:
You would be amazed at how many people share my views, out of the average Australian.


I'm not really amazed but the numbers. That's why it inevitable that some form of racial riots would occur, which they did in Cronulla. On that day we say the 'true blue' drunk White Anglo-Saxon Protestants conflict with disrespectful ethnic gangs.

To consider one 'in the right' or 'better than the other' is absurd. Both are a disgrace and neither represent the Australia that I live in.

True blue as you put it denotes the average Australian. I don't know about your referance to "WASPS", considering that roman catholics are the biggest religious group in Australia and not Protestants.

I am white, anglosaxon, Australian and proud. I do not have a racial agenda but my racial makeup on the whole makes for the majority of this country. This country is predominantly white, anglo saxon and we have our own identity. I believe that anyone regardless of colour, religion or beliefs should have a fair go in this country but if I am persecuted or have to dramatically change my way of life, I will not stand for this.

This country is not a muslim nation, we speak english here as the dominant language. We are tolerant, good people but don't mistake our kindness for weakness.

[SPOTTEDGREENDUCK]

Ch33kY wrote: SPOTTEDGREENDUCK wrote:
My brother played soccer for Australia in the ninties for f sakes but honestly who cares?


Who is your brother, and what club(s) did/does he play for?

SPOTTEDGREENDUCK wrote:
You would be amazed at how many people share my views, out of the average Australian.


I'm not really amazed but the numbers. That's why it inevitable that some form of racial riots would occur, which they did in Cronulla. On that day we say the 'true blue' drunk White Anglo-Saxon Protestants conflict with disrespectful ethnic gangs.

To consider one 'in the right' or 'better than the other' is absurd. Both are a disgrace and neither represent the Australia that I live in.

I won't tell you who my brother is because that will give you personal information about me. He played for Glory and Strikers in Australia and also played some football o/s. He coaches under 19's now for a fairly decent sized club.

[cassandrabandra]

SPOTTEDGREENDUCK wrote:
Ok, all I hear above is a bunch of rambling bs, some of it makes sense but on the whole you are going on with a do gooder try to keep everyone happy attitude, it is noble but it doesn't work.

I disagree.

Quote: The bottom line is it should have been prevented, however it was because of a lack of appropiate action taken by the relevant authorities that this happened. At least now, these trouble making idiots will realise we do fight fire with fire. Families with children who were playing at the time of the incidents said they felt the safest they had felt for months.

yes, and the warning signs have been obvious for a while. We know what has happened in other countries (lets not forget the Brixton riots in the UK), the level of frustration has been rising especially over the last few years - and its a two way street. Policy decisions have to made - and it has to happen on both sides.

Fighting fire with fire will in the long run make things worse however ... as you said yourself, violence begets violence.

Quote: Most of the minorities are good people, I have travelled extensively through the middle east and I even dabbled in Islam for a while. I did extensive courses in government on Islam and other issues when I was working for a government department. Most of the muslims here are fine and you are right that most of the trouble makers are actually born in Australia. Maybe, we should ship them off to Beirut for six months and see how they like it there.

since its second and third generation immigrants from different racial/ethnic minorities who seem to be the most trouble maybe we need to start looking at why that is. The elders I have contact with in various communities can see a problem developing as their children lose the old cultural values of respect, yet feel marginalised by our culture - discrimination IS there, Duckie - but the worst part is that some of these kids are reading it when its not. And once you get into that mind set it can become infectious. As long as they are in between they are a potential powder keg of violence - but I fail to see what shipping them back to Beirut will achieve, unless we address the issue it will happen with the next lot as well.

Quote: I have seen war so no need to lecture me. What happened at Cronulla was an act of patriotism, if you don't choose to become an aussie, learn the lingo and adapt to our society, then piss off. I don't mind if you bring traditions and cultures different from our own, it is enlightning and different, however this is Australia not Australiastan. The vast majority of us do not want to change our culture, WE ARE NOT A MUSLIM NATION. Nor will we ever be. Muslims need to respect that, in exchange they should be able to practice their religion peacefully without prejudice. I certainly do not want to see what has happened in France happening here in five years time and thats where we are headed. You are making the mistake of being to nice, people mistake kindness for weakness and will walk over us.

it was not however a war. And it wasn't about Islam. It was about young guys behaving like dickheads, and another group using this as a basis to incite a whole lot of other people to behave like dickheads. The first lot of dickheads should have learnt that this behaviour is not acceptable. But in all honesty Duckie, young guys have been behaving like dickheads at beaches for as long as I can remember. As a female I have had plenty of first hand experience of Australian boys being disgusting perves - so its not a cultural thing. And bashings and fighting others who are different can be a part of young male culture too - regardless of ethnic group.

Quote:
You took the dick measuring thing literally. You really should do stand up because your debating is all over the shop and deserves a C at the most.
I have four grandparents, one was born o/s, you do the maths, I was just stating that I know what immigrants go through having been quite closely related to one, I have elements of my family that have been in Australia for over 150 years, I have had two family members in Australian Olympic teams. My brother played soccer for Australia in the ninties for f sakes but honestly who cares?

you do.

Quote: People should not be persecuted for their beliefs in this country however, we should not change our beliefs to accommadate them. I am sick of minority groups given preferential treatment over the "slient majority".
You would be amazed at how many people share my views, out of the average Australian.

No I'm not - because a lot of people are genuinely afraid that they will have to change to accommodate the newcomers. In actual fact, this comes from a lot of misinformation. Multiculturalism is about respecting other people, and it works both ways.

We are Australian. Our legal and political system is second to none. When people come to this country, they are expected to abide by and respect our laws. They have to learn English if they are going to be able to contribute to this country. It is they who have to assimilate.

In general they are not given preferential treatment, however there are programmes to assist them in making the transition. IMO however some of the most important issues are not being addressed. Changes in the social makeup of Oz over the last thirty years - influenced by a range of issues from market forces, the change in labour market trends and the role of women as well as other factors have made the Australia of the last twenty five years a very different country from what it was in the past. This is significant to anyone wanting to understand social issues affecting us today - and especially the problems faced by people coming from more traditional cultures into this one.

[SPOTTEDGREENDUCK]

cassandrabandra wrote: SPOTTEDGREENDUCK wrote:
Ok, all I hear above is a bunch of rambling bs, some of it makes sense but on the whole you are going on with a do gooder try to keep everyone happy attitude, it is noble but it doesn't work.

I disagree.

Quote: The bottom line is it should have been prevented, however it was because of a lack of appropiate action taken by the relevant authorities that this happened. At least now, these trouble making idiots will realise we do fight fire with fire. Families with children who were playing at the time of the incidents said they felt the safest they had felt for months.

yes, and the warning signs have been obvious for a while. We know what has happened in other countries (lets not forget the Brixton riots in the UK), the level of frustration has been rising especially over the last few years - and its a two way street. Policy decisions have to made - and it has to happen on both sides.

Fighting fire with fire will in the long run make things worse however ... as you said yourself, violence begets violence.

Quote: Most of the minorities are good people, I have travelled extensively through the middle east and I even dabbled in Islam for a while. I did extensive courses in government on Islam and other issues when I was working for a government department. Most of the muslims here are fine and you are right that most of the trouble makers are actually born in Australia. Maybe, we should ship them off to Beirut for six months and see how they like it there.

since its second and third generation immigrants from different racial/ethnic minorities who seem to be the most trouble maybe we need to start looking at why that is. The elders I have contact with in various communities can see a problem developing as their children lose the old cultural values of respect, yet feel marginalised by our culture - discrimination IS there, Duckie - but the worst part is that some of these kids are reading it when its not. And once you get into that mind set it can become infectious. As long as they are in between they are a potential powder keg of violence - but I fail to see what shipping them back to Beirut will achieve, unless we address the issue it will happen with the next lot as well.

Quote: I have seen war so no need to lecture me. What happened at Cronulla was an act of patriotism, if you don't choose to become an aussie, learn the lingo and adapt to our society, then piss off. I don't mind if you bring traditions and cultures different from our own, it is enlightning and different, however this is Australia not Australiastan. The vast majority of us do not want to change our culture, WE ARE NOT A MUSLIM NATION. Nor will we ever be. Muslims need to respect that, in exchange they should be able to practice their religion peacefully without prejudice. I certainly do not want to see what has happened in France happening here in five years time and thats where we are headed. You are making the mistake of being to nice, people mistake kindness for weakness and will walk over us.

it was not however a war. And it wasn't about Islam. It was about young guys behaving like dickheads, and another group using this as a basis to incite a whole lot of other people to behave like dickheads. The first lot of dickheads should have learnt that this behaviour is not acceptable. But in all honesty Duckie, young guys have been behaving like dickheads at beaches for as long as I can remember. As a female I have had plenty of first hand experience of Australian boys being disgusting perves - so its not a cultural thing. And bashings and fighting others who are different can be a part of young male culture too - regardless of ethnic group.

Quote:
You took the dick measuring thing literally. You really should do stand up because your debating is all over the shop and deserves a C at the most.
I have four grandparents, one was born o/s, you do the maths, I was just stating that I know what immigrants go through having been quite closely related to one, I have elements of my family that have been in Australia for over 150 years, I have had two family members in Australian Olympic teams. My brother played soccer for Australia in the ninties for f sakes but honestly who cares?

you do.

Quote: People should not be persecuted for their beliefs in this country however, we should not change our beliefs to accommadate them. I am sick of minority groups given preferential treatment over the "slient majority".
You would be amazed at how many people share my views, out of the average Australian.

No I'm not - because a lot of people are genuinely afraid that they will have to change to accommodate the newcomers. In actual fact, this comes from a lot of misinformation. Multiculturalism is about respecting other people, and it works both ways.

We are Australian. Our legal and political system is second to none. When people come to this country, they are expected to abide by and respect our laws. They have to learn English if they are going to be able to contribute to this country. It is they who have to assimilate.

In general they are not given preferential treatment, however there are programmes to assist them in making the transition. IMO however some of the most important issues are not being addressed. Changes in the social makeup of Oz over the last thirty years - influenced by a range of issues from market forces, the change in labour market trends and the role of women as well as other factors have made the Australia of the last twenty five years a very different country from what it was in the past. This is significant to anyone wanting to understand social issues affecting us today - and especially the problems faced by people coming from more traditional cultures into this one.

At the end of the day, I feel that this is going to change Australia for the worst. We are a multicultral society but we need to stop immigration unless we have skills/trade shortages, we also need to look at where we are getting our migrants from. I live in a suburb where a common game I play is spot the white guy. I am normally it. I live down the road from a house that trains african migrants on adjusting to our culture, they stick together and form their own community in my neighbourhood. We are now slowly starting to have problems with their youth on crime, the local green grocer was closed down and is now quote "an african and middle eastern market". This is just ridiculous, my neighbourhood is turning into "Little Sudan" and its disenchanting. I don't mind living with these people however I don't want my neighbourhood to dramatically change because of it.

[cassandrabandra]

SPOTTEDGREENDUCK wrote: At the end of the day, I feel that this is going to change Australia for the worst. We are a multicultral society but we need to stop immigration unless we have skills/trade shortages, we also need to look at where we are getting our migrants from. I live in a suburb where a common game I play is spot the white guy. I am normally it. I live down the road from a house that trains african migrants on adjusting to our culture, they stick together and form their own community in my neighbourhood. We are now slowly starting to have problems with their youth on crime, the local green grocer was closed down and is now quote "an african and middle eastern market". This is just ridiculous, my neighbourhood is turning into "Little Sudan" and its disenchanting. I don't mind living with these people however I don't want my neighbourhood to dramatically change because of it.

I can see where you're coming from. I'm a minority where I live too - this suburb has over 60% chinese - wealthy ones though. A trip to the local shopping centre is like visiting Hong Kong. Although thats a plus. Its a good suburb to live in if you've got teenage kids - the local high school compares with the best private schools, and the problems with youth here are virtually non existent.

The sticking together is an issue - we all do it. Its 'homosociability' - the tendency to associate with people who are the same as you - its one of the reasons why it is better to have diverse populations dispersed. You often find the better educated DO move into more 'white' neighbourhoods - and there are certainly those who don't weant to mix with their own kind - LOL - I've met plenty who don't want to because of the gossip in the smaller communities.

But you know something Duckie - a lot of them do want to mix with us rather than exclusively their own kind - I get so many invitations from people (ie Africans, Middle Easterners and some other ethnic groups - less so Chinese) - because they WANT me there - and they want to ask me about little things - like how our political system works etc. They want to be informed about the society they live in, and they want to be part of it ...

I don't know about the facility down the road from you - its probably an IHSS programme - which is why you get a concentration in your area. I won't comment on the ins or outs of these programmes - I personally think that there are different approaches that could be taken.

The crime issue - that is what I was kind of referring to with the kids who are in between - they have lost respect for their own culture, and want the freedom our children have, and a lot of conflicts come from this. Its really quite complex and the PARENTS are deeply distressed by what is happening... but they have no control. Their kids don't respect them in this society - because they take longer to adapt than the kids do. Centrelink have been trying to deal with some of the issues re income support - but this seems to exacerbate the problems on some other levels.

It may be good for local community members who have time and energy to get involved on a voluntary basis in some way ... depending on local issues. Parents are often concerned about how their kids are going at school, so homework classes after school would be appreciated by parents - although I'm not sure about how well they'd be appreciated by kids, sporting activities are good - especially soccer (and there may be funding for this), there may also be funding for swimming programmes. Encouraging kids to engage in skills building and positive activities rather than just hanging around is the best defence agaisnt juvenile crime - with any group - but these kids REALLY need stuff like that.

sorry to sound like a do gooder!

[Ch33kY]

SPOTTEDGREENDUCK wrote: I live in a suburb where a common game I play is spot the white guy.

My aboriginal mate plays spot the black guy. It became fashionable after his race was declared inferior and culled upon European settlement. Only until the 70's did he become an 'Australian' thanks to Whitlam breaking the status-quo, that is, considering Aboriginals human.

I'm overcome with laughter at people who claim to be the true Australian when they can only recount their ancestory that have lived in Australia on one hand. What humours me more is when they claim foreigners are taking their land away :lol:

[SPOTTEDGREENDUCK]

Ch33kY wrote: SPOTTEDGREENDUCK wrote: I live in a suburb where a common game I play is spot the white guy.

My aboriginal mate plays spot the black guy. It became fashionable after his race was declared inferior and culled upon European settlement. Only until the 70's did he become an 'Australian' thanks to Whitlam breaking the status-quo, that is, considering Aboriginals human.

I'm overcome with laughter at people who claim to be the true Australian when they can only recount their ancestory that have lived in Australia on one hand. What humours me more is when they claim foreigners are taking their land away :lol:

In terms of technological advancement, the aborigional people were inferior. I mean 40000 years to invent a stick that comes back, I'm not impressed. Personally I wouldn't be lazy and I would go and pick it up. If I was around for forty thousand years, I would have invented something activated by my mind that was able to cull an animal with the blink of my eye.

Colonisation, its the word of the day, aborigionals were colonised by a numerically and technologically advanced competitor. The aborigionals weren't wiped out, if europeans had discovered and chosen to settle here a few hundred years earlier, they would have almost certainly been. They have been assimulated into our society though the vast majority of us are caucasian. A lot of aborigionals don't say they are Australian, they say they are seperate, I am an aborigional. I don't say, I am white Australian nor do I say, I am irish or italian Australian. At the end of the day we are all Australian.

I certainly consider aborigionals human, I also consider them as equals. I would not discriminate for example in an employment role if a candidate was aborigional however I would give the job to the best, most qualified, experianced candidate based on what I saw.

I do not understand why however aborigionals get preferential treatment when it comes to welfare, eductation or indeed some jobs. Equal oppurtunity, doesn't that mean everyone deserves a equal chance? Why on earth on some jobs does it say, aborigional candidates are strongly urged to apply or words to that affect? I believe that is nothing short of reverse racism. You may say this is because we stole their land, that is bs.

What were they doing with it anyway? They didn't farm it nor did they manufacture goods, they were an extreamely primitive civilisation. One of the best soldiers I ever had the honour of serving with and one of my best mates is a half caste aborigional. He is a top bloke, smart, dependable and a good mate, he never plays the aborigional card even though it would make life a lot easier for him, I think this is commendable. I don't think I should get a payout for being white, nor do I think that someone should for being aborigional. When it comes to welfare, everyone should recieve the same payments regardless of background.