Political Crossfire Forums

00timh · Joined: 08 Nov 2004 Posts: 13028 Location: upstate NY

Skeptical Mystic wrote: 00timh wrote: It would seem to me that regardless of your interests or ability to form close relationships with the same sex, what a person is physically attracted to should be the determining factor as to whether or not they are gay.
Trouble is, you're buying into the mischaracterization that being gay is only a 'sexual' orientation. It's a lot more than that. Physical attraction and the manifestations of it are strong factors, but they aren't all there is to the story.

Many (if not most) gay guys realize during childhood that they're more strongly attracted to other boys than girls - long before they develop any understanding of the sexual component of attraction. This goes way beyond the whole 'all boys start off thinking girls have cooties' routine and it's not a case of 'arrested development'. Many of us relate to our female friends quite well, and don't necessarily find the idea of sexual relations with a woman to be repulsive. It's just that women don't spark our interest the way that men do - and that includes in non-sexual ways. Not sure what you are getting at here but what I was getting at when I made the post was that two people had mistakenly thought they were gay or had at least attempted to be gay because of the perceptions people have of gender specific behavior and interests. I guess I was saying just leave it up to what you are attracted to and don't worry about your interests or close friendships with the same sex.

F'losrix · Posted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:19 am Post subject:

00timh wrote: Skeptical Mystic wrote: 00timh wrote: It would seem to me that regardless of your interests or ability to form close relationships with the same sex, what a person is physically attracted to should be the determining factor as to whether or not they are gay.
Trouble is, you're buying into the mischaracterization that being gay is only a 'sexual' orientation. It's a lot more than that. Physical attraction and the manifestations of it are strong factors, but they aren't all there is to the story.

Many (if not most) gay guys realize during childhood that they're more strongly attracted to other boys than girls - long before they develop any understanding of the sexual component of attraction. This goes way beyond the whole 'all boys start off thinking girls have cooties' routine and it's not a case of 'arrested development'. Many of us relate to our female friends quite well, and don't necessarily find the idea of sexual relations with a woman to be repulsive. It's just that women don't spark our interest the way that men do - and that includes in non-sexual ways. Not sure what you are getting at here but what I was getting at when I made the post was that two people had mistakenly thought they were gay or had at least attempted to be gay because of the perceptions people have of gender specific behavior and interests. I guess I was saying just leave it up to what you are attracted to and don't worry about your interests or close friendships with the same sex.
Sorry if I wasn't clear. My point is that the reason some people get confused about it is that there is more to being gay than just the physical part of the attraction.

Sometimes other things, like deeply shared interests and a strong friendship can spill over into the sexual arena, and when it happens with a friend of the same sex, people can mistake that for having a repressed homosexual orientation that has broken free. But just because someone has momentary feelings of physical attraction toward a close friend of the same gender, that doesn't make them gay.

What gay men feel toward other men is a lot stronger than that; it's more enduring, and the physical attraction is but one inseparable element of the whole package. I'm not saying that gay men can't be friends with other men in a non-sexual way; only that when they are attracted to another guy there's a lot more to it than just the sexual part and it's all intertwined.

Valdimar · Joined: 12 Dec 2004 Posts: 711 Location: San Francisco

I have many straight male friends. Most all of them are the best friends I have ever had in my life. I will admit, and have admitted to a few of them, that I am physically attracted to them, but they are totally cool with it. They say it's no different than having a girl they aren't interested in oogling him. :-)

I think this whole part of the country, or better yet whole part of California is jaded. People here are not inclined at all to discovering someone's sexuality as a priority or prerequisite of getting to know anyone. In other words, I love getting hit on by women and totally going along with it, but I'm a huge flirt by nature. Then I go to the Castro and she goes to North Beach. No hard feelings.

Darth Tiberius · Joined: 19 Apr 2005 Posts: 2001 Location: Oxford

For bisexual dudes like me there seems to be a awful stigma on our orientation by mena nd women. Men don't want us cause they are worried we'll go off with a woman and vice versa. I allways found that hard.

Valdimar · Joined: 12 Dec 2004 Posts: 711 Location: San Francisco

True bisexuals will not use their sexuality as an excuse to do that. One of my good friends, she is bisexual, thinks it's okay to have a girlfriend and a boyfriend, because it's 'different'. That's bullcrap in my opinion.

F'losrix · Posted: Fri Dec 30, 2005 5:50 pm Post subject:

Darth Tiberius wrote: For bisexual dudes like me there seems to be a awful stigma on our orientation by mena nd women. Men don't want us cause they are worried we'll go off with a woman and vice versa. I allways found that hard.
It's not a wholly unreasonable concern from either point of view. Plenty of gay men give in to social pressures and marry women. One could logically argue the danger of that happening with a bisexual partner is increased. I would guess that from a woman's point of view there is worry about you ability to fully commit to them, as an extension of what they mistakenly see as your inability to commit to an interest in one gender or the other.

Plodder · Joined: 01 Nov 2005 Posts: 803 Location: USA

this poll is bisaed becuse 1st: only people that cre will vote esp homos. 2nd: bi is just a messed up freak not an orentation. Bis need serious mental health reveiw.

The Grandmaster · Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 2:27 am Post subject:

Plodder wrote: this poll is bisaed becuse 1st: only people that cre will vote esp homos. 2nd: bi is just a messed up freak not an orentation. Bis need serious mental health reveiw.

Oh, fascinating. Back your claims up then, instead of just spouting nonsense.

Protostar · Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 2:34 am Post subject:

TheGrandmaster1 wrote: Plodder wrote: this poll is bisaed becuse 1st: only people that cre will vote esp homos. 2nd: bi is just a messed up freak not an orentation. Bis need serious mental health reveiw.

Oh, fascinating. Back your claims up then, instead of just spouting nonsense.

I didn't even understand the first part. The second part is just nonsense.

The Grandmaster · Posted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 2:52 am Post subject:

Protostar wrote: TheGrandmaster1 wrote: Plodder wrote: this poll is bisaed becuse 1st: only people that cre will vote esp homos. 2nd: bi is just a messed up freak not an orentation. Bis need serious mental health reveiw.

Oh, fascinating. Back your claims up then, instead of just spouting nonsense.

I didn't even understand the first part. The second part is just nonsense.

Yeah I know, that's why I didn't even know how to respond to the first part. It isn't a sentance...or even a discernable idea. The 2nd part is simply a man spouting at his mouth.

ToonArmyIsComing · Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 5888 Location: Ontario

Where is the "questioning" or the "confused" option?

Plodder · Joined: 01 Nov 2005 Posts: 803 Location: USA

srry I was writing fast

1st: The only people that will vote on this will be those that care. In particular will be The Homosexuals since this is a thread that glorifies their conduct.

2nd: Bisexual cannot be an orientation because a Bi is attacted to both man and women which makes them favor no side in particular. Its like a reaction in equilibrium for all you chem majors out there.

Æ · Joined: 17 Jun 2005 Posts: 5404 Location: Taxatraz

Plodder wrote: this poll is bisaed becuse 1st: only people that cre will vote esp homos. 2nd: bi is just a messed up freak not an orentation. Bis need serious mental health reveiw.
+banned

Æ · Joined: 17 Jun 2005 Posts: 5404 Location: Taxatraz

Rico wrote: I can't believe there isn't a thread on this already, so I might as well start it. Basically, just state your sexual orientation. You can add whatever details you want, as long as we get where you swing. I'm more interested in the poll, personally. Just want to see what the percentages are, so don't forget to vote in the poll.

I'm not going to get into transgender issues. Basically, your gender is either male or female, regardless of whether it's the gender you were born with or not. If you want to add that you are transgender in your post, please do. I'm not trying to discriminate here, I just don't want to make things too detailed here.

As for myself, I'm a bisexual who has a preference for the opposite sex. I've dated girls my entire life, so my gay experience is zilch. However, I am starting to get a little intimate with one of my bisexual male friends recently, so we'll see how that turns out...
You're missing a choice: 50/50 here. No polarity towards one or the other.

Kt · Joined: 23 Jan 2006 Posts: 3806

Plodder wrote: this poll is bisaed becuse 1st: only people that cre will vote esp homos. 2nd: bi is just a messed up freak not an orentation. Bis need serious mental health reveiw.

This post has been reported.

Liberty4All wrote: Rico wrote: I can't believe there isn't a thread on this already, so I might as well start it. Basically, just state your sexual orientation. You can add whatever details you want, as long as we get where you swing. I'm more interested in the poll, personally. Just want to see what the percentages are, so don't forget to vote in the poll.

I'm not going to get into transgender issues. Basically, your gender is either male or female, regardless of whether it's the gender you were born with or not. If you want to add that you are transgender in your post, please do. I'm not trying to discriminate here, I just don't want to make things too detailed here.

As for myself, I'm a bisexual who has a preference for the opposite sex. I've dated girls my entire life, so my gay experience is zilch. However, I am starting to get a little intimate with one of my bisexual male friends recently, so we'll see how that turns out...
You're missing a choice: 50/50 here. No polarity towards one or the other.

I'd say I'm the same way, I see no clear preference eaither way.
I consider myself bisexual, I used to think I had a clear preference towards females, and never expected to be emotionally involved with a male in a long term relationship, but alas I am, which was quite a pleasent suprise. My Bf is also Bisexual.

So I'm not sure if I prefer males or females, or if i don't care and try to see what's INSIDE. I'm acctually not too experienced with relationships, I was a virgin untill I was 19, In gradeschool I avoided anything that could become a relationship, and I avoided any "school dances" like the plague.

As for mtf transsexuals calling themselves lesbian, Naturally I see nothing wrong with this, and for all you who do try looking at it through our perspective. If I was not also into males, I WOULD call myself lesbian and have no problem with it. After so many years of health-damaging anti-androgens, and hormones, and awkward social adjustment, years of getting my ass kicked in middle/highschool, and years of denial, and dealing with family members and trying to help them cope, and after all that bulls**t and after saving for surgery for as long as I can remember, after living and functioning exactly as any other woman would, I have earned that right, f**k you, go to hell.

PS: I've never seen many genetic females go through the same sort of thing just to be the sex they were supposed to be.

00timh · Joined: 08 Nov 2004 Posts: 13028 Location: upstate NY

Helena` wrote: Plodder wrote: this poll is bisaed becuse 1st: only people that cre will vote esp homos. 2nd: bi is just a messed up freak not an orentation. Bis need serious mental health reveiw.

This post has been reported.

Liberty4All wrote: Rico wrote: I can't believe there isn't a thread on this already, so I might as well start it. Basically, just state your sexual orientation. You can add whatever details you want, as long as we get where you swing. I'm more interested in the poll, personally. Just want to see what the percentages are, so don't forget to vote in the poll.

I'm not going to get into transgender issues. Basically, your gender is either male or female, regardless of whether it's the gender you were born with or not. If you want to add that you are transgender in your post, please do. I'm not trying to discriminate here, I just don't want to make things too detailed here.

As for myself, I'm a bisexual who has a preference for the opposite sex. I've dated girls my entire life, so my gay experience is zilch. However, I am starting to get a little intimate with one of my bisexual male friends recently, so we'll see how that turns out...
You're missing a choice: 50/50 here. No polarity towards one or the other.

I'd say I'm the same way, I see no clear preference eaither way.
I consider myself bisexual, I used to think I had a clear preference towards females, and never expected to be emotionally involved with a male in a long term relationship, but alas I am, which was quite a pleasent suprise. My Bf is also Bisexual.

So I'm not sure if I prefer males or females, or if i don't care and try to see what's INSIDE. I'm acctually not too experienced with relationships, I was a virgin untill I was 19, In gradeschool I avoided anything that could become a relationship, and I avoided any "school dances" like the plague.

As for mtf transsexuals calling themselves lesbian, Naturally I see nothing wrong with this, and for all you who do try looking at it through our perspective. If I was not also into males, I WOULD call myself lesbian and have no problem with it. After so many years of health-damaging anti-androgens, and hormones, and awkward social adjustment, years of getting my ass kicked in middle/highschool, and years of denial, and dealing with family members and trying to help them cope, and after all that bulls**t and after saving for surgery for as long as I can remember, after living and functioning exactly as any other woman would, I have earned that right, f**k you, go to hell.

I'm probably going to come off sounding callous to you but this is my opinion....

As for transexuals-

I honestly can say I have a limited knowledge of this BUT.... I think there needs to be a self acceptance of what you are. You talk about the cost of this.... The world is not always a friendly place. There are thousands of people who dump their life savings every year to battle terminal illnesses or illnesses that would kill them if they did not. Some people dump their savings literally just to buy a few more years.

There are people who have had to cope with losing their sight or hearing, people who have had to cope with losing arms or legs. Horrible disfigurment and a grotesque appearence from accidents, especially burns.

I know there is a difference but transvestites are able to add this femininty to their lives. Maybe they don't actually want to be women. Still, they are able to have this life.

The way I see it, you are still able to have this femininity. You can have the choice to live, act and look like a woman. I do not doubt that you would if given a magic wand change you sex in second and I don't care if anyone does this but this anger you speak of, how you are in some ways un healthily chaning your body's chemistry, I think that perhps for you and many other transexuals out there, An acceptance that you are a male would be to your benefit. You can still live as a female and no matter what, removing your male genitalia will not fully make you a woman. It is only changing the cosemetic make up of your body. You do not have the entire female reproductive system. Most of you, nearly all of you never really look as good as you think or wish that you did.

There are so many people that have to accept far worse things in life. I'm not saying you shouldn't do this but given the context of your life vs. those who have suffered far worse fates, If that is the choice you make, a choice that the other people that I have described did not make, Those difficulties should at least be accepted, or you should come to an acceptance of what you really are.

You are not going to get any sympathy from me with your "f**k you, I've earned the right" attitude.

Kt · Joined: 23 Jan 2006 Posts: 3806

00timh wrote:
I honestly can say I have a limited knowledge of this BUT.... I think there needs to be a self acceptance of what you are. I do accept what I am, which Is why I chose to transition in the first place.

Quote: You talk about the cost of this.... The world is not always a friendly place.
[sarcasm]Wow really?!?[/sarcasm]

Quote: There are thousands of people who dump their life savings every year to battle terminal illnesses or illnesses that would kill them if they did not. Some people dump their savings literally just to buy a few more years. That they do, your point?

Quote: There are people who have had to cope with losing their sight or hearing, people who have had to cope with losing arms or legs. Horrible disfigurment and a grotesque appearence from accidents, especially burns. And I sympathize with them, but I, like everyone, have my own problems.

Quote: I know there is a difference but transvestites are able to add this femininty to their lives. Maybe they don't actually want to be women. Still, they are able to have this life.
Let me share some knowlege with you,
Transgendered: This covers everyone
Transvestite: Sort of like a crossdresser, they crossdress but live as their birth sex in their daily life.
Transsexual: They are not crossdressers, they live, and dress, as their chosen gender.

Quote: The way I see it, you are still able to have this femininity. You can have the choice to live, act and look like a woman. I do not doubt that you would if given a magic wand change you sex in second and I don't care if anyone does this but this anger you speak of, how you are in some ways un healthily chaning your body's chemistry, I think that perhps for you and many other transexuals out there, An acceptance that you are a male would be to your benefit. I AM biologically a male, I am socially a woman. I don't live in a dellusional world like others who deny their biology and their past.

Quote: You can still live as a female and no matter what, removing your male genitalia will not fully make you a woman.
No, it won't, woman is a social term, female is a biological term, I would argue I am already a woman, and would never be a female.

Quote: It is only changing the cosemetic make up of your body. You do not have the entire female reproductive system. Most of you, nearly all of you never really look as good as you think or wish that you did. As true as that may be, it is largely a matter of your own personal opinion.

Quote: There are so many people that have to accept far worse things in life. There is ALWAYS people with far worse fates in life, no matter who you are.
Quote: I'm not saying you shouldn't do this but given the context of your life vs. those who have suffered far worse fates, If that is the choice you make, a choice that the other people that I have described did not make, Those difficulties should at least be accepted, or you should come to an acceptance of what you really are. Not that you'd listen to me, but being transsexual, to many, is not a choice, it's something one is born with.

Now let me say, I hope you didn't take my last post out of context, It was not that I was whining, I was arguing, I was arguing why mtf transsexuals have the right to use the term lesbian to describe themselves, because of all of the aspects that I have stated, admit that it takes far more work for a transsexual to be a woman (or a man) then those who are born into it. YOU are the one that took what I said, and twisted my words and made it appear like I was whining about how unfair life is, well guess what? You completely misunderstood my point.

I was trying to answer questions of other people from a perspective which they may be able to appreciate. And here you are, telling me what I am, and who I am, and what I should do with my own damn life, I'd be lying if I said that I was not offended.

Quote: You are not going to get any sympathy from me with your "f**k you, I've earned the right" attitude.
Who asked for sympathy? I must say I am quite disgusted that you would expect ME to want sympathy from YOU.

00timh · Joined: 08 Nov 2004 Posts: 13028 Location: upstate NY

Helena` wrote: 00timh wrote:
I honestly can say I have a limited knowledge of this BUT.... I think there needs to be a self acceptance of what you are. I do accept what I am, which Is why I chose to transition in the first place.

Quote: You talk about the cost of this.... The world is not always a friendly place.
[sarcasm]Wow really?!?[/sarcasm]

Quote: There are thousands of people who dump their life savings every year to battle terminal illnesses or illnesses that would kill them if they did not. Some people dump their savings literally just to buy a few more years. That they do, your point?

Quote: There are people who have had to cope with losing their sight or hearing, people who have had to cope with losing arms or legs. Horrible disfigurment and a grotesque appearence from accidents, especially burns. And I sympathize with them, but I, like everyone, have my own problems.

Quote: I know there is a difference but transvestites are able to add this femininty to their lives. Maybe they don't actually want to be women. Still, they are able to have this life.
Let me share some knowlege with you,
Transgendered: This covers everyone
Transvestite: Sort of like a crossdresser, they crossdress but live as their birth sex in their daily life.
Transsexual: They are not crossdressers, they live, and dress, as their chosen gender.

Quote: The way I see it, you are still able to have this femininity. You can have the choice to live, act and look like a woman. I do not doubt that you would if given a magic wand change you sex in second and I don't care if anyone does this but this anger you speak of, how you are in some ways un healthily chaning your body's chemistry, I think that perhps for you and many other transexuals out there, An acceptance that you are a male would be to your benefit. I AM biologically a male, I am socially a woman. I don't live in a dellusional world like others who deny their biology and their past.

Quote: You can still live as a female and no matter what, removing your male genitalia will not fully make you a woman.
No, it won't, woman is a social term, female is a biological term, I would argue I am already a woman, and would never be a female.

Quote: It is only changing the cosemetic make up of your body. You do not have the entire female reproductive system. Most of you, nearly all of you never really look as good as you think or wish that you did. As true as that may be, it is largely a matter of your own personal opinion.

Quote: There are so many people that have to accept far worse things in life. There is ALWAYS people with far worse fates in life, no matter who you are.
Quote: I'm not saying you shouldn't do this but given the context of your life vs. those who have suffered far worse fates, If that is the choice you make, a choice that the other people that I have described did not make, Those difficulties should at least be accepted, or you should come to an acceptance of what you really are. Not that you'd listen to me, but being transsexual, to many, is not a choice, it's something one is born with.

Now let me say, I hope you didn't take my last post out of context, It was not that I was whining, I was arguing, I was arguing why mtf transsexuals have the right to use the term lesbian to describe themselves, because of all of the aspects that I have stated, admit that it takes far more work for a transsexual to be a woman (or a man) then those who are born into it. YOU are the one that took what I said, and twisted my words and made it appear like I was whining about how unfair life is, well guess what? You completely misunderstood my point.

I was trying to answer questions of other people from a perspective which they may be able to appreciate. And here you are, telling me what I am, and who I am, and what I should do with my own damn life, I'd be lying if I said that I was not offended.

Quote: You are not going to get any sympathy from me with your "f**k you, I've earned the right" attitude.
Who asked for sympathy? I must say I am quite disgusted that you would expect ME to want sympathy from YOU. My post was directly pointed at your anger with your situation. I don't care wht you do with yourself. I'm not telling youwhat you should do with yourself. I am sayng however that acceptance of oneself, which inculdes things that either cannot be changed or that the changes which are so costly and perhaps damaging to ones self would be better off being accepted IMO. I knew you wuould take offense to tis and I warnd you about it. I deal with and have dealt with people that IMO have a far better reason to feel the anger you do because of your sex change. Being that IMO the actual change will not completly make you a female or woman It would be better off IMO to forgo the sugery but continue to live however you want and express yourself however you want. I've never understood this but to me since there are so many things that a man cannot actually change other than their appearence and genatalia, he appearence which can be changed instantaneously and the genitalia which is obviously such a hard task would not make it worth it. Not when you can live as you already state you do as a woman and regard yourself as such.

Kt · Joined: 23 Jan 2006 Posts: 3806

00timh wrote: I've never understood this but to me since there are so many things that a man cannot actually change other than their appearence and genatalia, he appearence which can be changed instantaneously and the genitalia which is obviously such a hard task would not make it worth it. Not when you can live as you already state you do as a woman and regard yourself as such.
Surgery would acctually be a good choice because it would take away the need for anti-androgens, which are damaging to the liver.

F'losrix · Posted: Thu Feb 23, 2006 2:03 pm Post subject: Re: The Sexual Orientation Thread

00timh wrote: It is only changing the cosemetic make up of your body.
I think this illustrates how little people understand about

1) Cosmetic surgery

2) Transsexualism

This isn't equivalent to saying "I don't like the color of my house, so I'll paint it". A lot of people have cosmetic surgery not just to change the way they look, but because the change can have a dramatic effect upon their self-esteem & mental health.

There are limits to what you can do with make-up and clothing. Helena can correct me if I'm wrong about this, but my understanding is that for someone who is transsexual, it isn't enough to just look like the opposite sex to other people when you're fully clothed. It's important for their mental health that the appearance of their body matches what they feel inside - including the parts they can see for themselves that aren't normally on display to others.

I'm not going to lie and pretend that I understand a lot about transsexuals. That said, I'm not going to sit in judgment of them, either. What they do to their body is ultimately up to them - I don't see any reason why you or I should have a say in it.