Political Crossfire Forums

dolphin · Joined: 08 Aug 2006 Posts: 142

Dhammalover wrote: Quote: they have yet to show real remorse and regret for what they have done in WW2 despite their official "apologies."
what is real remorse to you? a candle light vigile and a good cry? In the modern world we expect something from nothing. We expect there to be spoken word where there should be unspoken. If common knowledge is equal then why should we state the obvious?

I am glad you agree with me and i agree with you sir that they committed horrible attrocities, trust me they do too, and.............now we move on. I guess its like love, you know it, you just want to hear it.
To the western mind this is an easy thing. to the eastern mind the disgrace is in the defeat. The acceptance of guilt and fault is in the action of the guilty society not the words spoken. It is the boss/subordinate mentality. I know you are my boss, you know the same, why should i come to work and say "good morning, you are my boss" My actions speak for me. Japans actions have spoken for them, they have not been an agressor in the 60 years since their defeat, they have built a stable extremely successful economy and culture out of the ashes. The other nations need to just accept this about the Japanese culture and quit.

I would like you to answer two questions for me.
Who is more selfish and stubborn, the man who doesnt answer the question or the man who continues to ask? and the second, Is it selfish to expect a grandson to pay his grandfathers penance?
I will answer your questions.
One, Who is more selfish and stubborn, the man who doesnt answer the question or the man who continues to ask?
Answer: depends. according to Japanese PM's praying, do you think it is China and Korea's fault to keep telling Japanese what to do? We will not forget what we suffered, we do not like to iterate periodically and frequently. What if Japan keeps sticking their finger into our eyes?

second: Is it selfish to expect a grandson to pay his grandfathers penance?
Answer: according to CHina, we have never thought like this. If not, why did we give up war compensation from Japan government officially in 1960's ? Why did we Chinese education system educat her children to keep long term friendly relationship with Japan till today? And DO make it clear we just want them to confess what they did and treat it as war crime.

dolphin · Joined: 08 Aug 2006 Posts: 142

KOV-14 wrote: Yasukuni Shrine is NOT for war criminals. PM Koizumi visits the shrine to honor those who fought for Japan and died for it. Apparently, there are some who had been accused of commiting war crimes are also being honored there. So, the Chinese (especially) accuse the PM of portraying Japan's war criminals as if they are holy beings.

At first many Japanese also shared China's point of view; PM was insensitive. But then the Chinese started attacking Japanese citizens (well, mostly their cars and properties only but) so now, most people just feel that the Chinese are trying to use this as an excuse to prevent Japan from acting like an ordinary state so that China can soon dominate Asia.

IMAO, I think Japan should simply have the names of those suspected war criminals moved to a different shrine so that China would be satisfied.
Japan has never suffered an invasion except USA, tell me how and where did those dead soliders show their loyalty to their emperor?

dolphin · Joined: 08 Aug 2006 Posts: 142

Rankor and Pissing wrote: Well, as a soverign nation Japan can do whatever they want to. Whether or not it's politically a good thing to move those names of "suspected" of war crimes is still to be argued.

suspected? They were convicted by far east international court in 1945-1948!!!!!! Learn more history please.

dmaw · Joined: 31 Jul 2006 Posts: 114

Dhammalover wrote: No sir I am a whiteboy, an American whiteboy. I have however had the opportunity to live in both the ROK and Japan. I understand the deep seeded hatred felt toward the Japanese by the Koreans.
First and foremost, I am not saying that Japan was right or that the Nanking tragedy did not happen. I am sure it did. I am not defending the words of some of the Japanese politicians. However, ponder this, there have been many American politicians in our history that have said some pretty mean things that have gone against the grain and rubbed other countries raw as well as other Americans. Their words did not represent the country as a whole. Their words represented their views or at best a small contingent of their supporters.
The official line according to the Japanese government is that they regret the attrocities they have caused in the past. They are not going to get into specifics because, one, it does no good to get into specifics.
What about Nanking? Well..... what about Singapore? What about the Phillipines? What about Battaan? What about Indonesians, Cambodians, Vietnamese?The extent of their evil acts is quite far reaching.
Two, their goal is to live by example through kind action and pacifism. You see, if they sit and say ok, we are sorry for nanking. Yeah and we are sorry for the comfort things in Korea. Oh and we are sorry for the Battaan death march. oh and we are sorry to the Filipino people for this and that. Oh and we are sorry to the Manchurian people and we are sorry for Pearl Harbor. Oh and and and and and and............................ The Japanese are sorry, and their official line is that they are sorry, for it all.
They live peacefully, they act peacefully, the past is the past, so stop.
If the best that the people have is that the Japanese arent printing a few more correct things in the schoolbooks or they have a couple rogue politicians who make outlandish claims about Nanking, Who if i may say so are very quickly rebuffed by the Diet. If this is the best evidence they have as far as the Japanese continuing an internal dialogue of imperialist thought then I am sorry but I have to shrug this off as yet another case of mountains out of minutia.
Is the moral burdon of debt on the Japanese? Yes, but this type of debt is repayed by the indebted as they see fit, not the other way around.
You can ask for an apology but you cant write it for the person. I think the Chinese and Koreans are trying to do this.

i don't think the issue is with the apology. it is with the institutionalized denial of the actions taken by the japanses in Ww2 that people object to. you can't say your sorry for your attrocities and then deny that these atrocities happened.

"i'm sorry for something that i deny happened" is the simplification of the statement the japanese are trying to make.

germany instituted laws, institutionalized an education system and engineered a society that keeps the memory of the attrocities in the forefront of the society in order to insure that these incidents don't happen again. the japanese have instituted an education system and engineered a society designed to erase the memory of their attrocities from their society. and, whie cleche, it is true that if you let them forget these things it can happen again.

in regards to your comment about rogue politicians visiting the shrine while the official government line is an apology to the asian nation i must interject and say taht it was the prime minister that visted the shrine. this person is the leader of the japanese government. his actions speak for the government and therefore his actions hold a symbolic meaning to all of asia. you can't, as the leader of a nation, visit a shrine where convicted war criminals are entombed and expect that the nations that these war criminals are convicted of terrorizing are going to sit back without comment for complaint. it is very valid for both korea and china to voice their displeasure with the prime minister's actions.

now i do agree that people may blow this out of proportion but for you to argue that people should let it go isn' really a reasonable statement. this was peoples families that were massicured. these wounds are deep for many in asia and the japanese should remember and be respectful of those taht they admitedly wronged. if you apologize sincearly it's your actions and not your words that speak the loudest. and while the apology by the japanese is well writen their actions speak loudly that they are less than sincere. it is not about the apology and whether japan should let others write it for them it's whether they mean it or not. and if they don't then it means that they ahve not learned from the mistakes of the past and that in the future may be a threat to asian peace again.

anti-communist · Joined: 29 Jan 2006 Posts: 155

dizzyheights · Joined: 01 Sep 2006 Posts: 72

Dhammalover wrote: So, what would it take? You wanna let the Koreans write the textbooks? You want pictures more graffic language of what the Japanese did to the Koreans and Chinese? You want the Japanese to admit what? War is hell and all people suffered because they attacked? Well that is pretty obvious dont you think? Why do they need to admit the obvious? Why do they need to concentrate on an obvious fact? The truth is in your face, do you need to be told what you already know? When you have beaten a person and it is obvious, why do you need to hear them say that you have beaten them? Why would you want them to say they are a bad person? Doesnt the treaty of complete surrender say enough? Doesnt the continuous occupation of US forces for the last 60 years say enough? Please, it is time to move forward. When we forget the past we are doomed to repeat it. If we dwell on the past were are doomed to stay there.
As for the Temple visit I stick with what I said earlier. He is Shinto it is a Shinto temple he visited on New Year holiday to pay respect. Let the man pay his respect in peace. It has been there since the 1860's He is paying respect to the brave men who died for their country. This is being twisted into him praying to war criminals.
Yasakuni means "peaceful country" It is not to commemorate war it is to commemorate sacrifice. To compare this temple to a temple of Nazi's is inaccurate. All of the people who gave their lives in all of japans wars are commemorated their. This is being twisted. He is Japanese and he is paying respect to his countrymen, this is honorable not a disgrace. :evil: I The Japanese occupation was a horrible event. The so called honorable soldiers who died for their emperor raped women, killed children, buried whole families alive, mutated and tortured countless people. They pillaged the land and resources of countries they occupied and tried to destory the cultural heritage of each nation. I find it diplorable that they honor these evil men and I only hope that they are suffering in hell for what they did. Imagine if a foriegn country came to the USA, took the president in chains, kidnapped all the women and turned them into sex slaves (still denied and no reperations by Japan, put all the men and even children to slave labor. And then denied they ever did it. How would you feel? If you think I'm making this up, my father lived through it all.

Rankor and Pissing · Joined: 04 Mar 2006 Posts: 9982

dizzyheights wrote: How would you feel? If you think I'm making this up, my father lived through it all.[/b]

Mr Fobulous wrote: tell me how you would feel

New name for Mr Fobulous or just the same rhetoric from page 2?

dizzyheights · Joined: 01 Sep 2006 Posts: 72

Rankor and Pissing wrote: dizzyheights wrote: How would you feel? If you think I'm making this up, my father lived through it all.[/b]

Mr Fobulous wrote: tell me how you would feel

New name for Mr Fobulous or just the same rhetoric from page 2? Mr. Fobulous? Nope I just joined this forum yesterday. Just thought I would put my two cents. Though my parents hold a deep hatred of the Japanese people, I've been to Japan twice and love Tokyo. People are extremely nice (almost overly), the food is excellent and the girls are either butt ugly or super hot (no middle ground). I'm just stating that this is a very sensitive subject for the older generation that lived through the whole ordeal, including my father and mother, and Japan seems to treat it as an after thought. Asian people are extremely proud and 5000 years of war and competition doesn't fix itself overnight. I think westerners have a hard time grasping the issue just like I have a hard time grasping the issues in the middle east from their point of view. I did live in Iran for 6 years and I did get a glimpse into the culture though.