Political Crossfire Forums

[mr_FOBolous]

You don't seem to understand what i'm saying. I'm not saying that Japan have to apologize to every country individually for every little thing they've done and i understand that they have officially "apologized" and that's good BUT THEIR ACTIONS SHOWS OTHERWISE. Did you even read anything i wrote? did you read the little story i made up about the little boy in the school yard or the comparison of attitudes about WW2 between a German and Japanese? cause to me, it seems like you haven't cause you basically just said the same thing over and over again in different ways and don't really make arguments to counter my points.

Here, let me copy and paste something i've already written earlier to counter EVERYTHING you just posted:

Quote: and, no...koreans and chineses don't have to write the textbook. but they can at least mention the astrocities and admit that they did what they did instead of DENYING those things. to this very day, Japan NEVER apologized for the Nanking massacre and stil deny the fact that it happened despite compelling evidence and confessions of Japan's own soldiers who were involved in it. in addition to all that, they don't need to be trying to JUSTIFY what they did. saying that they did what they did was because they were trying to free Asia from the European colonist and trying to liberate Asia and saying that they were doing what they were doing for Asian's own good and common interest. that's complete BS.

[Dhammalover]

you are right, i am wrong. have a good day

[TwinkieDP]

You seem to think that past wrongdoings as heinous as the ones performed by the Germans on the Jews, Turks on the Armenians and Japanese on the other Asians should now be wiped off the history books simply because enough time has passed by, then I guess any wrongdoing is fine, as long as enough time has passed by.

To the Chinese you are saying Justice is NOT necessary. I can assure you the Chinese people will never be able to forget this. The same with the Koreans, and Phillipines. There will be a major conflict in East Asia someday. Much blood will be shed.

People can try to be impartial to a certain degree. People can say to themselves, "oh well it is just human Nature. If I was in the position of those Nazis, of Japanese Samurai Soldiers, I'd probably become just as evil." But can you Imagine, having young boys cut open for medical examination while they are conscious, having innocent civilians cut down in the thousands by samurai swords simply for sport, women raped and tortured before they are murdered. WE TREAT ANIMALS BETTER THAN THIS!!!

No such history should never be forgotten, should never be downplayed. I wonder how Japanese citizens feel when an American tells them that the Atomic bombs were dropped for their own good. That if it was not dropped many more on both sides of the Pacific would have died during the invasion of Japan.

[Dhammalover]

This is becoming emotion and is achieving nothing. I have said my piece and you have said yours as far as I am concerned I am done with this argument. If you can enlighten me in the future with some new found revelation then I will be happy to discuss it. Have a nice day Dan

[SiriusBlack]

Hehe I got an answer to ur long ago question Danpt2000. If u rape my mother and kill my father i will hunt u down, castrate u with a bobby pin, rip off ur arms, put them in a box and send them to Bejing then have a good old time playin soccer with your head. lol. Just thought i would be a bit random here lol

[mr_FOBolous]

Dhammalover wrote: This is becoming emotion and is achieving nothing. I have said my piece and you have said yours as far as I am concerned I am done with this argument. If you can enlighten me in the future with some new found revelation then I will be happy to discuss it. Have a nice day Dan

LOL. i'm going to go kill all the male members of your family and rape all the females members than kill them afterwards. after i get pardoned for "good behavior" from my life sentence, imma go around saying how your family deserved what i did to them and brag about what i did. and than after that, the media protrays me as "the model citizen"(japan being included as one of the permanent member of the UN secruity council) for how well I behaved in my life after prison and how i have reformed. tell me how you would feel.

[Rankor and Pissing]

Wow... broken record...

[KOV-14]

Yasukuni Shrine is NOT for war criminals. PM Koizumi visits the shrine to honor those who fought for Japan and died for it. Apparently, there are some who had been accused of commiting war crimes are also being honored there. So, the Chinese (especially) accuse the PM of portraying Japan's war criminals as if they are holy beings.

At first many Japanese also shared China's point of view; PM was insensitive. But then the Chinese started attacking Japanese citizens (well, mostly their cars and properties only but) so now, most people just feel that the Chinese are trying to use this as an excuse to prevent Japan from acting like an ordinary state so that China can soon dominate Asia.

IMAO, I think Japan should simply have the names of those suspected war criminals moved to a different shrine so that China would be satisfied.

[mr_FOBolous]

KOV-14 wrote: Yasukuni Shrine is NOT for war criminals. PM Koizumi visits the shrine to honor those who fought for Japan and died for it. Apparently, there are some who had been accused of commiting war crimes are also being honored there. So, the Chinese (especially) accuse the PM of portraying Japan's war criminals as if they are holy beings.

At first many Japanese also shared China's point of view; PM was insensitive. But then the Chinese started attacking Japanese citizens (well, mostly their cars and properties only but) so now, most people just feel that the Chinese are trying to use this as an excuse to prevent Japan from acting like an ordinary state so that China can soon dominate Asia.

IMAO, I think Japan should simply have the names of those suspected war criminals moved to a different shrine so that China would be satisfied.

yeeea, i understand what you're saying and agree with you. i think a politican have propose to move the names of the war criminals but it never passed and was struck down.

[Rankor and Pissing]

Well, as a soverign nation Japan can do whatever they want to. Whether or not it's politically a good thing to move those names of "suspected" of war crimes is still to be argued.

[mr_FOBolous]

Rankor and Pissing wrote: Well, as a soverign nation Japan can do whatever they want to. Whether or not it's politically a good thing to move those names of "suspected" of war crimes is still to be argued.

ummm...yea, they're not "suspected"...they're CONVICTED meaning that they have already been proven GUILTY.

[The Flat World]

Koreans and Chinese DO NOT want the next generation of Japanese completely brainwashed by their government into thinking that they 'freed' Koreans/Chinese from Western Imperialism, or that they only tried to help 'civlize' their colonies.

That's what's already happening btw. An average Japanese who has not been abroad has little idea of what their ancestors did.

Koizumis' feeble apologies are useless unless he carries his words into action. And if he is anything remotely close to a smart leader, he should know that what he's doing right now is seriously isolating Japan from East Asian politics.

[The Flat World]

Oh, and I'd love to see how Europeans would react if the German government suddenly decides to erase all mentions of Hitler and the Nazi atrocities during WWII.

[skylance]

:lol: :lol:

[skylance]

Japan like a Geisha :lol: ,since 1945 she can't controll her life,Uncle Sam is her VIP client,poor japanese,foxy american! :lol:

[TwinkieDP]

skylance wrote: Japan like a Geisha :lol: ,since 1945 she can't controll her life,Uncle Sam is her VIP client,poor japanese,foxy american! :lol: Foxy American? :?

[skylance]

To Twinkiedip:It's very nice to find you are an ABC.

in fact,I really like Japanese culture,espesially ancient japan in war kingdoms.Ruth Benedict's book <the chrysanthemum and sword> is the great one discovered japanese society and culture,But she is not a historican or east asian, she could find what a japanese was,but she couldn't tell us why the japanese had developed a kind of culture like that.

I believe Japan has been seeking its independant role for 1000 years until now.
these minor nations"korea,vietnam,japan"are unfortunately to be born in the circyle of Chinese early developed civilization.it's a long term installment payment to them all.... :lol:

I am serious,I respect any other civilization,but the truth is whole nation's Psychological condition is almost the same as one person.

[mgmike]

Although I regret rekindling this topic/argument, I can't help but to state some facts along with my thoughts.
Before I start, I would like to let everyone know that I am ethnically Korean but I have been educated in America (which means a lot considering the bias many other Koreans hold). I pride myself to be objective and logical over being emotional.

--
The Yasukuni Shrine has been a major controversial topic for all asians, including the Japanese, after the war. I will go straight to my point. People are enraged not only because the PM attended the Shrine, but because the meaning the Shrine emanates both directly and indirectly. It obviously does honor and praise those who died in war, and I PERFECTLY understand the honoring of the dead who have died for their beliefs. But it indirectly retains the imperialistic Japan. The Yasukuni was a motivation and incentive for the Japanese to sacrifice, being guaranteed a space in the Shrine in which the Emperor would feel gratitude for. The Shrine maintains those ideals and by praising the Shrine, it only proves the justification of imperialism. --I may have digressed, but my point is praising the Yasukuni Shrine ITSELF as an ideal, not the people inside it, is causing problems among the nations which have suffered under Japanese Imperialism.

But the recent developments in protests against the Yasukuni Shrine lies elsewhere. Do you all think the the Shrine honors only those who wish to be? From what I have read, roughly 20,000 Taiwanese and 25,000 Koreans' names are in the Shrine. As Easterners are generally strong believers in spirit, those Tawianese and Koreans are enraged that their ancestor's souls' are being wrongfully 'jailed' in the Shrine (since Taiwanese and Koreans don't believe in the Yasukuni ideal). And most of the non-Japanese having been forced into the army and led to their deaths, they are infuriated by the fact that their ancestors are being honored for sacrificing for the imperialistic Japan and aiding in the conquering of many asian nations.
*a fact: in 1976, a Catholic Japanese requested the Yasukuni Shrine to remove his 2 brothers' names from the Shrine. But it was rejected and their names are still unwillingly kept in the Shrine.
So its not all about the Yasukuni Shrine's ideals, but also their attitude and approach to those who do not believe in the Yasukuni 'religion'.
---

If you have read everything up to here, thank you. I hope I haven't said things you already know. But I hope that my views may help bring any sort of understanding.

PLEASE don't blatantly flame. I have feelings too. But I am generally accepting of my mistakes, so if you have different opinions then of my own, please post so in a CIVILIZED MANNER.

THANK YOU :)

-mike

[dolphin]

Dhammalover wrote: I am not a believer in the school of thought that says that just because the ultimate goals of my master are evil that serving him makes me evil as well. There are many reasons people fight and die for their country and most Japanese fought for love of emperor and country.
Is it only wrong because they were the agressor? Were all these men who died shameful in their death because their nation was the agressor? Their blood is blood just like an American, or a Brit or for that matter a Korean or Chinese.
He is paying respect to scarifice not agression. We learn from all angles and losing was one of the greatest teachers of the Japanese people. Losing the war forced them to rise up from a fuedal warike society. How long do the Japanese have to go around bobbing their heads in pity of an act committed by their grand and great grand parents? These men gave the ultimate sacrifice for their country and emperor.
I see your point though. If the Germans did this we would be all over them.
Can you tell me why those dead japanese died outside japan islands? What did they do in China and Korea ? No reason will lead to put a glorious ring on those ghosts, esp for those A-class and B-class convicted war criminals.

[dolphin]

Dhammalover wrote: So, what would it take? You wanna let the Koreans write the textbooks? You want pictures more graffic language of what the Japanese did to the Koreans and Chinese? You want the Japanese to admit what? War is hell and all people suffered because they attacked? Well that is pretty obvious dont you think? Why do they need to admit the obvious? Why do they need to concentrate on an obvious fact? The truth is in your face, do you need to be told what you already know? When you have beaten a person and it is obvious, why do you need to hear them say that you have beaten them? Why would you want them to say they are a bad person? Doesnt the treaty of complete surrender say enough? Doesnt the continuous occupation of US forces for the last 60 years say enough? Please, it is time to move forward. When we forget the past we are doomed to repeat it. If we dwell on the past were are doomed to stay there.
As for the Temple visit I stick with what I said earlier. He is Shinto it is a Shinto temple he visited on New Year holiday to pay respect. Let the man pay his respect in peace. It has been there since the 1860's He is paying respect to the brave men who died for their country. This is being twisted into him praying to war criminals.
Yasakuni means "peaceful country" It is not to commemorate war it is to commemorate sacrifice. To compare this temple to a temple of Nazi's is inaccurate. All of the people who gave their lives in all of japans wars are commemorated their. This is being twisted. He is Japanese and he is paying respect to his countrymen, this is honorable not a disgrace.

I am sure you are not smart enough to find the Japan is sneaky to overthrow those treaty's spirit and to make another Pearl Harbour attack. Be prepared!