Political Crossfire Forums

[mr_FOBolous]

Quote: Koizumi upbeat ahead of regional talks, despite strains
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20051211/wl_asia_afp/aseanjapankoizumi;_ylt=Aq52cwasupUNruMvBEFu_p0Bxg8F;_ylu=X3oDMTBjMHVqMTQ4BHNlYwN5bnN1YmNhdA--

Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi has said strained ties with China and South Korea are only temporary and could be overcome without reducing Japan's influence in the region.

His comments came before he was due to leave for Kuala Lumpur for talks at which Chinese and South Korean leaders have refused to meet Koizumi over his perceived insensitivity in the way Tokyo commemorates Japan's wartime past.

"Japan has been given high marks by countries in Asia for its track record," Koizumi told reporters. "And the relations of mutual dependence with both China and South Korea have been deepened," he said at his official residence.

Asked if Japan's influence was declining due to the poor state of ties with its neighbours, Koizumi said "I don't see it that way."

Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao and South Korean President Roh Moo-Hyun have refused to meet Koizumi on the sidelines of the talks over his pilgrimages to a Tokyo shrine honouring Japanese war dead, including convicted war leaders.

"It is what you may call something temporary," he said, referring to the cancellation of customary three-way and bilateral talks.

Koizumi is due to attend the annual meeting of leaders from the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN) and their counterparts from Japan, China and South Korea on Monday.

He will also take part in the Japan-ASEAN summit on Tuesday and the inaugural East Asia Summit on Wednesday.

Koizumi has defied protests at home and abroad to visit the Yasukuni shrine five times since he took office in 2001, most recently on October 17. He says his visits are to mourn Japan's dead and show Japan's commitment to pacifism.

But China and South Korea, which were invaded and occupied by Japan in the 20th century, see the shrine as a symbol of Japan's militarist past.

At home, the shrine visits are criticised for violating the constitutional separation of state and religion.

At the Kuala Lumpur talks, Koizumi is expected to offer 100 million dollars to set up a fund to help ASEAN tackle bird flu and terrorism, according to media reports.


I'm suprised no western nation have been on Japan's back for it's PM's visit to a shrine pays respect to WW2 war criminals. I am even more suprised that some of the people I talk to on other forums and some of my friends i talked to about this in real life tries to defend Japan. Imagine Germany doing this. Imagine the uproar it would cause.

btw...i'm new to the forum :-D hi everyone

[SiriusBlack]

Yes it is very provocative how none of the western countries have not gotten on the PM for that. I mean rly what makes Japan more special than Germany, but then there is alway that one point that Japan was not a real bad threat in WWII except to the US. Germany was against everyone while Japan only attacked the US initially. But still I am surprised people from the US aren't on him for that.
O and btw Hi mr FOBolous

[Dhammalover]

I am not a believer in the school of thought that says that just because the ultimate goals of my master are evil that serving him makes me evil as well. There are many reasons people fight and die for their country and most Japanese fought for love of emperor and country.
Is it only wrong because they were the agressor? Were all these men who died shameful in their death because their nation was the agressor? Their blood is blood just like an American, or a Brit or for that matter a Korean or Chinese.
He is paying respect to scarifice not agression. We learn from all angles and losing was one of the greatest teachers of the Japanese people. Losing the war forced them to rise up from a fuedal warike society. How long do the Japanese have to go around bobbing their heads in pity of an act committed by their grand and great grand parents? These men gave the ultimate sacrifice for their country and emperor.
I see your point though. If the Germans did this we would be all over them.

[mr_FOBolous]

Dhammalover, in case you didn't know...convicted war criminals are also "honored" in that shrine. imagine Germans "honoring" Hitler's henchmans that help him commit his astroctities and genocide.

and in addition to the annual visit to the shrine by the Japanese PM, Japan have also done other things that infuriates Korea and China. These things includes, but aren't limited to, whitewashing their WW2 war crimes/astrocities, trying to justify the war, and denying the astrocities they have committed.

once again, to make my point clearer, imagine Germany doing all that. imagine the response they will get.

news article regarding the above:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/04/05/AR2005040501610.html?nav=rss_world/asia

true, the Japanese Government have apologized numerous times for what they did in WW2 but their actions prove otherwise.

[Dhammalover]

So, what would it take? You wanna let the Koreans write the textbooks? You want pictures more graffic language of what the Japanese did to the Koreans and Chinese? You want the Japanese to admit what? War is hell and all people suffered because they attacked? Well that is pretty obvious dont you think? Why do they need to admit the obvious? Why do they need to concentrate on an obvious fact? The truth is in your face, do you need to be told what you already know? When you have beaten a person and it is obvious, why do you need to hear them say that you have beaten them? Why would you want them to say they are a bad person? Doesnt the treaty of complete surrender say enough? Doesnt the continuous occupation of US forces for the last 60 years say enough? Please, it is time to move forward. When we forget the past we are doomed to repeat it. If we dwell on the past were are doomed to stay there.
As for the Temple visit I stick with what I said earlier. He is Shinto it is a Shinto temple he visited on New Year holiday to pay respect. Let the man pay his respect in peace. It has been there since the 1860's He is paying respect to the brave men who died for their country. This is being twisted into him praying to war criminals.
Yasakuni means "peaceful country" It is not to commemorate war it is to commemorate sacrifice. To compare this temple to a temple of Nazi's is inaccurate. All of the people who gave their lives in all of japans wars are commemorated their. This is being twisted. He is Japanese and he is paying respect to his countrymen, this is honorable not a disgrace.

[mr_FOBolous]

you know what? what you said is right. and i would be perfectly fine with it if those war criminals weren't included in the shrine. but they are. i don't think convicted war criminals deserve to be "honored" and "payed respect" to in the shrine just like i don't think hitler and his henchmans should be "honored" and "payed respect" to. it's not twisted.

something similar like this happened in Germany not so along in regardes of paying "respect" to ww2 soldiers. here's the article: LINK

and, no...koreans and chineses don't have to write the textbook. but they can at least mention the astrocities and admit that they did what they did instead of DENYING those things. to this very day, Japan NEVER apologized for the Nanking massacre and stil deny the fact that it happened despite compelling evidence and confessions of Japan's own soldiers who were involved in it. in addition to all that, they don't need to be trying to JUSTIFY what they did. saying that they did what they did was because they were trying to free Asia from the European colonist and trying to liberate Asia and saying that they were doing what they were doing for Asian's own good and common interest. that's complete BS. torturing civilians isn't "liberating" Asia. Raping women isn't "liberating" Asia. Forcing women to become sex slaves (or comfort women as the Japanese like to call them) isn't "liberating" Asia. conducting numerous "medical" experiements on women and children isn't "liberating" Asia. Trying to destroy another country's culture by replacing it with your own isn't "liberating" Asia. completely wiping out and killing everyone in a city isn't "liberating" Asia. Seizing another country's wealth and natural resources isn't "liberating" Asia. and what i said is only a fraction of what Japan did during WW2. why else do you think China and Korea would be so infuriated by Japan's action? Why else would thousands of Koreans demonstrate and protest against Japan's PM visiting the shrine? Why else would tens of thousands of Chinese across China rioted, pillaged Japanese stores in China, attacked Japanese citizens residing in China, destroyed Japan made cars in China, and attack the Japanese embassy in China all in protest of Japan's PM visists to the shrine? all that happened not so long ago...probably a few months. go look it up online. i'm too lazy to go search for another news article.

they have yet to show real remorse and regret for what they have done in WW2 despite their official "apologies."

and keep this in mind...what Japan did during WW2 in Asia is comparable to what Germany/Nazis did in Europe.

and i agree with you. I agree it's time to move forward. I agree with you that if we forget the pass, we are doomed to repeat it. and i agree with you that if we dwell in the past, we are doomed to stay there. but it's hard to move forward when Japan is trying its hardest to make its citizens forget what they did in the past and brainwash them thinking that what the did is justified. and we will forever dwell in it until Japan shows sincere remorse and regret like Germany did.

[TwinkieDP]

Comparing Japanese action vs German behavior during WWII:

While Japanese atrocities could not match the numbers killed by Germans, they excelled in their brutality. No women, children or men were spared during Nanjing. It was not so much the numbers that were killed, but the methods by which they were killed. In that regards Japanese militarism had no match in the world. They way those hundreds of thousands were killed was worse than how we butcher cattle.

[Dhammalover]

Quote: they have yet to show real remorse and regret for what they have done in WW2 despite their official "apologies."
what is real remorse to you? a candle light vigile and a good cry? In the modern world we expect something from nothing. We expect there to be spoken word where there should be unspoken. If common knowledge is equal then why should we state the obvious?

I am glad you agree with me and i agree with you sir that they committed horrible attrocities, trust me they do too, and.............now we move on. I guess its like love, you know it, you just want to hear it.
To the western mind this is an easy thing. to the eastern mind the disgrace is in the defeat. The acceptance of guilt and fault is in the action of the guilty society not the words spoken. It is the boss/subordinate mentality. I know you are my boss, you know the same, why should i come to work and say "good morning, you are my boss" My actions speak for me. Japans actions have spoken for them, they have not been an agressor in the 60 years since their defeat, they have built a stable extremely successful economy and culture out of the ashes. The other nations need to just accept this about the Japanese culture and quit.

I would like you to answer two questions for me.
Who is more selfish and stubborn, the man who doesnt answer the question or the man who continues to ask? and the second, Is it selfish to expect a grandson to pay his grandfathers penance?

[TwinkieDP]

The question is, does Japanese gov't try to glorify it's exploits around Asia as the liberation of Asians from European colonialism? Yes it does.

Question to Dhammalover, If I rape your mother and kill your father, then claim that I was merely spreading my superior genes in this world, then I go home and start living like everything is alright and forget the past would you come and demand justice or seek vengence?

[mr_FOBolous]

Danpt2000 did a good job responding for me so yeeea... :-D Dhammalover, i want you to respond to Danpt2000.

there's only one thing i would like to add though...to me, showing true remorse isn't just saying "I'm sorry" and not mean it. cause that's what the japanese is doing right now. to me, showing true remorse is to sincerely apologize and admit the wrong that they did and not try to justify/glorify it.

Difference between a German and a Japanese when you ask them about WW2:

German: what we did was wrong. we are ashamed of what we did. the astrocities were horrible. the holocaust were despicable. The Nazis are a disgrace to Germany. We will never let that happen again.

Japanse: WW2? We tried to save Asia. We tried to liberate Asia from European colonialism. All those soldiers that died died honorably. Long live the Emperor and all the generals in WW2. They are heros. Astrocities? what Astrocities? against the Koreans? we never committed any astrocities against Koreans. we never killed women and children. we never tortured civilians. our soldiers are too honorable for such lowly things. Nanking Massacre? YOU LIE! that never happened. The Nanking Massacre is a story made up by the Chinese. The comfort women? They willingly submitted themselves. Plus our honorable soldiers needed a way to release their stress.

see the difference? now imagine a German saying what the Japanese is saying. i might've exaggerated a little but that's basically the difference in attitude about WW2 between the Germans and Japanese.

also remember what Danpt2000 said:
Quote: Comparing Japanese action vs German behavior during WWII:

While Japanese atrocities could not match the numbers killed by Germans, they excelled in their brutality. No women, children or men were spared during Nanjing. It was not so much the numbers that were killed, but the methods by which they were killed. In that regards Japanese militarism had no match in the world. They way those hundreds of thousands were killed was worse than how we butcher cattle.

[SiriusBlack]

If i may reply to your questions Dhammalover. You can take those questions two different ways. In my opinion the more stubborn and selfish is the one who keeps asking the question. The other man could be pondering how to answer or could possibly be playing games with the other man trying to get him to his full potential and answer the question for himself.
And you could say it is selfish for a grandson to pay his grandfather's penence but only if he is the last relative and the grandfather has no way to pay for himself can that be said to be non-selfish. So really it all depends how you look at it.

I do agree with what you say mrFOBolous The Japanese just deny everything they did, like the biological testing on the Chinese civilians, whereas the Germans know that they were wrong and know by admitting it that they may be able to repair their broken country. Japanese try to gain respect by trying to act high and mighty like they are all innocent but that is the one reason they are not in power today, they got to cocky with the war. But I do agree with you 100% mr FOBolous you bring in some very good points.

[Dhammalover]

Quote: In my opinion the more stubborn and selfish is the one who keeps asking the question. The other man could be pondering how to answer or could possibly be playing games with the other man trying to get him to his full potential and answer the question for himself

Who keeps asking for an apology? wHo keeps asking the questions?

Quote: And you could say it is selfish for a grandson to pay his grandfather's penence but only if he is the last relative and the grandfather has no way to pay for himself can that be said to be non-selfish. So really it all depends how you look at it.

:?


Quote: I do agree with what you say mrFOBolous The Japanese just deny everything they did, like the biological testing on the Chinese civilians, whereas the Germans know that they were wrong and know by admitting it that they may be able to repair their broken country. Japanese try to gain respect by trying to act high and mighty like they are all innocent but that is the one reason they are not in power today, they got to cocky with the war. But I do agree with you 100% mr FOBolous you bring in some very good points.

oh my Buddha :-|

Thank you very much for your replies sir. I will take your comments under consideration.

[mr_FOBolous]

how convienient it is for Dhammalover to ignore everything Danpt2000 and I said.

[TwinkieDP]

mr_FOBolous wrote: how convienient it is for Dhammalover to ignore everything Danpt2000 and I said. The more people try to stick their heads in the sand the more the past shall haunt them...

[Dhammalover]

GRRRRRRRRRRR!!!! Why dont you just call me a chicken :lol:
Ok, let me put my boxing gloves on, you two, why I oughta :-D

Sorry, i didnt ignore you intentionally, i swear.

Danpt2000
Quote: Question to Dhammalover, If I rape your mother and kill your father, then claim that I was merely spreading my superior genes in this world, then I go home and start living like everything is alright and forget the past would you come and demand justice or seek vengence?

Mr_fobolous
Quote: Japanse: WW2? We tried to save Asia. We tried to liberate Asia from European colonialism. All those soldiers that died died honorably. Long live the Emperor and all the generals in WW2. They are heros. Astrocities? what Astrocities? against the Koreans? we never committed any astrocities against Koreans. we never killed women and children. we never tortured civilians. our soldiers are too honorable for such lowly things. Nanking Massacre? YOU LIE! that never happened. The Nanking Massacre is a story made up by the Chinese. The comfort women? They willingly submitted themselves. Plus our honorable soldiers needed a way to release their stress.


THE EVIL JAPANESE EMPIRE GRRRRRRRRRRRRR!!!!
Quote: August 26, 1982

1. The Japanese Government and the Japanese people are deeply aware of the fact that acts by our country in the past caused tremendous suffering and damage to the peoples of Asian countries, including the Republic of Korea (ROK) and China, and have followed the path of a pacifist state with remorse and determination that such acts must never be repeated. Japan has recognized, in the Japan-ROK Joint Communiqué of 1965, that the "past relations are regrettable, and Japan feels deep remorse," and in the Japan-China Joint Communiqué, that Japan is "keenly conscious of the responsibility for the serious damage that Japan caused in the past to the Chinese people through war and deeply reproaches itself." These statements confirm Japan's remorse and determination which I stated above and this recognition has not changed at all to this day.

Seems sincere enough to me. If you dont like this one, just click on the link below and there are like 20 more, you can pick from, hits from the 70's ,80's and 90's good times, great apologies! Sorry guys none of the prime ministers or other govt officials committed hari kari in front of the Chinese or Koreans as an ultimate act of sorrow. (Sarcasm alert WHOOOT WHOOT WHOOOT!!!)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_war_apology_statements_issued_by_Japan

Once again, what do you guys want? What do the Chinese want? what do the Koreans want? They lost (the Japanese), they have acted peacefully for the last 60 years how many different ways and how many times do they need to apologize?
Both their actions of peace and cooperation with the other nations in Asia and their multiple apologies speak for them.
If they get into specific incidents they will be apologizing formally until the end of time. Were they tyrants yes, they were some evil people at one time. We cannot continue to dwell on the past, lets move forward.


BUT YOU GUYS ARE RIGHT I AM HORRIBLY MISLEAD. I TRULY BELIEVE THE JAPANESE ARE EVIL DEMONS AND WE MUST FORCE THEM TO PROSTRATE IN FRONT OF THE CHINESE AND KOREANS UNTIL THEIR KNEES BLEED. :roll:

[mr_FOBolous]

do you know read may posts? i can respond to everything you just said by reposting what i posted....here i go:

Dhammalover:
Quote: Seems sincere enough to me. If you dont like this one, just click on the link below and there are like 20 more, you can pick from, hits from the 70's ,80's and 90's good times, great apologies! Sorry guys none of the prime ministers or other govt officials committed hari kari in front of the Chinese or Koreans as an ultimate act of sorrow. (Sarcasm alert WHOOOT WHOOT WHOOOT!!!)

Me:
Quote: they have yet to show real remorse and regret for what they have done in WW2 despite their official "apologies."
Quote: true, the Japanese Government have apologized numerous times for what they did in WW2 but their actions prove otherwise.


Dhammalover:
Quote: Once again, what do you guys want? What do the Chinese want? what do the Koreans want?

Me:
Quote: koreans and chineses don't have to write the textbook. but they can at least mention the astrocities and admit that they did what they did instead of DENYING those things. to this very day, Japan NEVER apologized for the Nanking massacre and stil deny the fact that it happened despite compelling evidence and confessions of Japan's own soldiers who were involved in it. in addition to all that, they don't need to be trying to JUSTIFY what they did. saying that they did what they did was because they were trying to free Asia from the European colonist and trying to liberate Asia and saying that they were doing what they were doing for Asian's own good and common interest. that's complete BS.

talk is cheap. actions speak louder than words. Let me make this situation simple for you so you can understand...imagine you're in first grade and you were really skinny and had no friends. someone bullied you and beat you up in the school yard. He got in trouble with the teacher and the teacher make him "apologize" to you. But after he "apologized," he gave you a smug smirk and instead of bullying you physically, he's bullying you verbally instead. He goes around spreading rumors about you and taunt you verbally at school everyday. now...do you think his apology was sincere? wouldn't you still be mad at him and hold a grudge against him? same logic applies here. Japan "apologized" but their action proves otherwise. that's why China and Korea are so mad.

Dhammalover:
Quote: We cannot continue to dwell on the past, lets move forward.

Me:
Quote: and i agree with you. I agree it's time to move forward. I agree with you that if we forget the pass, we are doomed to repeat it. and i agree with you that if we dwell in the past, we are doomed to stay there. but it's hard to move forward when Japan is trying its hardest to make its citizens forget what they did in the past and brainwash them thinking that what the did is justified. and we will forever dwell in it until Japan shows sincere remorse and regret like Germany did.

And to further emphasize my point, let's copy and paste the comparison between a japanese attitude toward WW2 and a German's:
Quote: German: what we did was wrong. we are ashamed of what we did. the astrocities were horrible. the holocaust were despicable. The Nazis are a disgrace to Germany. We will never let that happen again.

Japanse:WW2? We tried to save Asia. We tried to liberate Asia from European colonialism. All those soldiers that died died honorably. Long live the Emperor and all the generals in WW2. They are heros. Astrocities? what Astrocities? against the Koreans? we never committed any astrocities against Koreans. we never killed women and children. we never tortured civilians. our soldiers are too honorable for such lowly things. Nanking Massacre? YOU LIE! that never happened. The Nanking Massacre is a story made up by the Chinese. The comfort women? They willingly submitted themselves. Plus our honorable soldiers needed a way to release their stress.

see the difference? now imagine a German saying what the Japanese is saying. i might've exaggerated a little but that's basically the difference in attitude about WW2 between the Germans and Japanese.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_massacre

A few quotes from that site:

the Japanese army at the International Military Tribunal for the Far East that the death toll was military in nature, and that there were no organized massacres or atrocities carried out on civilians.

especially among conservatives, that the Nanking Massacre has been exaggerated (if not fabricated) as a diplomatic weapon directed against Japan. Some Japanese historians continue to maintain the Nanking Massacre is propaganda on the part of the Chinese Communist Party,

The controversy flared up again in 1982 when the Ministry of Education censored any mention of the Nanking Massacre in a school textbook.

Also, a number of cabinet ministers as well as some high-ranking politicians made comments denying atrocities committed by the Japanese army in the World War II

While young Japanese were now taught that atrocities did occur, many continue to believe that the Massacre is hugely exaggerated in both scale and number by Chinese politicians using it as an offensive charge to scupper Japan's reputation in the world community.

October 2004, the Japanese manga comic book "Kuni ga Moeru" or "The Country is Burning" by Hiroshi Motomiya was suspended from the manga anthology Weekly Shonen Jump because it "depicted the Nanking Atrocities as 'real.'" Certain Japanese politicians and civilians wanted the manga censored or removed because they claimed that the incident never occurred and there was no proof of it.

[Dhammalover]

PLEASE, You cant write the other guys apology. That is what China and Korea want. They want the apology just like THEY want it. Japan said they are sorry, and they have lived by a pacifist example. Get over it. Take the sorry and be happy Japan didnt even have to give that, the ungrateful crybabies.

[Dhammalover]

Quote: The Japanese Government and the Japanese people are deeply aware of the fact that acts by our country in the past caused tremendous suffering and damage to the peoples of Asian countries, including the Republic of Korea (ROK) and China, and have followed the path of a pacifist state with remorse and determination that such acts must never be repeated.

This is how you apologize for hundreds of years worth of agression, AS I stated prior they were evil tyrants and bad people at one point and they committed many many attrocities. This is a blanket "im sorry"
The Chinese and the ROK need to take it and place their particular incident in there and be happy.

[TwinkieDP]

Dhammalover wrote: PLEASE, You cant write the other guys apology. That is what China and Korea want. They want the apology just like THEY want it. Japan said they are sorry, and they have lived by a pacifist example. Get over it. Take the sorry and be happy Japan didnt even have to give that, the ungrateful crybabies. By any chance are you a Japanese immigrant to the U.S., Australia or the U.K.? Because your english seems to be written so well, yet for some incomprehensible reason you seem to defend Japanese gov't and its past wrongdoings without shame.

Let me make the first move for you, I am an American, with parents who are of Chinese descent. Don't say that I'm just trying to bait you into revealing something about yourself.

[Dhammalover]

No sir I am a whiteboy, an American whiteboy. I have however had the opportunity to live in both the ROK and Japan. I understand the deep seeded hatred felt toward the Japanese by the Koreans.
First and foremost, I am not saying that Japan was right or that the Nanking tragedy did not happen. I am sure it did. I am not defending the words of some of the Japanese politicians. However, ponder this, there have been many American politicians in our history that have said some pretty mean things that have gone against the grain and rubbed other countries raw as well as other Americans. Their words did not represent the country as a whole. Their words represented their views or at best a small contingent of their supporters.
The official line according to the Japanese government is that they regret the attrocities they have caused in the past. They are not going to get into specifics because, one, it does no good to get into specifics.
What about Nanking? Well..... what about Singapore? What about the Phillipines? What about Battaan? What about Indonesians, Cambodians, Vietnamese?The extent of their evil acts is quite far reaching.
Two, their goal is to live by example through kind action and pacifism. You see, if they sit and say ok, we are sorry for nanking. Yeah and we are sorry for the comfort things in Korea. Oh and we are sorry for the Battaan death march. oh and we are sorry to the Filipino people for this and that. Oh and we are sorry to the Manchurian people and we are sorry for Pearl Harbor. Oh and and and and and and............................ The Japanese are sorry, and their official line is that they are sorry, for it all.
They live peacefully, they act peacefully, the past is the past, so stop.
If the best that the people have is that the Japanese arent printing a few more correct things in the schoolbooks or they have a couple rogue politicians who make outlandish claims about Nanking, Who if i may say so are very quickly rebuffed by the Diet. If this is the best evidence they have as far as the Japanese continuing an internal dialogue of imperialist thought then I am sorry but I have to shrug this off as yet another case of mountains out of minutia.
Is the moral burdon of debt on the Japanese? Yes, but this type of debt is repayed by the indebted as they see fit, not the other way around.
You can ask for an apology but you cant write it for the person. I think the Chinese and Koreans are trying to do this.